Tory Scum

you are most welcome, anytime you need your moral compass adjusting from ‘f-ck you jack’, to ‘take my arm brother’, just ask

Is that what my moral compass says? Can you actually read? I actually find your attitude to this quite insulting.
Ask you what?

oh dear

oh dear

Yes, oh dear indeed you condascening little twerp.

“Tories Two legs baaaad, Labour Four Legs gooood. Tories Two Legs baaaad, Labour Four Legs goooood…..”

Yes, oh dear indeed you condascening little twerp

do you always resort to insults when someone else disagrees with you? sign of a weak man in my experience. If you feel insulted perhpas stop trotting out the same old tory rhetoric, it doesn’t wash any more.

If you feel insulted perhpas stop trotting out the same old tory rhetoric,

Why is getting off your arse to improve yourself tory rhetoric?

ernie_lynch – Member

Just accept that you are a right-wing Tory swivel eyed loon. Seriously mate, there’s no point trying to hide it.

You are TJ and I claim my £5 🙂

.
.
.Hang on a mo – something wrong here

its that combined with the rest of what you’ve said Don Simon, its true blue through and through. For every person that manages to get themselves out of poverty there are many, many more who don’t for a hundred different reasons. Does that mean its ok that they stay there and pass on the poor start that they had to their kids?

Why is getting off your arse to improve yourself tory rhetoric?*

Because the nature of the top down nature of capitalism means that most must fail so the very rich can live of their labour. it is simply maths

of course they need to sell the dream that if you work hard you can escape poverty and become one of them, they may even give exemplars of self made [ working class] folk done good like Alan sugar…how ever if you think his outcomes are typical of everyone who worked hard from a poor background you are very much mistaken. If you think we could all achieve this you are very much mistaken

The flip side is to infer [ I don’t think you do but the argument does] that if you are poor it is because you did not try hard enough and if you are wealthy you did and you earned it which is also BS and if you wish to argue it is please use the Duke of Westminster and the Queen as examples of hard work bringing success [ please don’t DS I am sure you could do this easily, you may even could do it coherently 😉 ]

* If we did not work hard they would have no one to exploit – see also the proterestant work ethic about how installing the notion work is good makes it easier to exploit the proles for your personal gain

Does that mean its ok that they stay there and pass on the poor start that they had to their kids?

I wish I knew what you were talking about here. Who are the “they” that you’re referring to?

The only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it’s ok to sit back and do bugger all, people like you.

don’t be expecting handouts all you life if you choose not to.

quite

The only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it’s ok to sit back and do bugger all, people like you.

ha! never said that, never thought that, never done that. try again.

The only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it’s ok to sit back and do bugger all, people like you

Yes DS we could all be bosses couldnt we , all be millionaiires, everyone be at the top and no one at the bototm etc but for lefties saying it i sBollocks ….that is the only thinking stopping this [ well that and relaity but hey lets ignore that for a bit ]

DS yes folk can improve themselves with effort but please calm down dear 😉

So if everyone worked hard then the total population of a country could become multimillionaires – cool.

EDIT – beat me to it.

ha! never said that, never thought that, never done that. try again.

Oh shit! Is it half term again?
Yet you seem to reject anyone who wants to help those that come from similar backgrounds and label them as spouting tory rhetoric. You appear to jump to conclusions about people without knowing anything about their backgrounds.
You seem happy to dismiss the ideas of others yet don’t offer your own.
You are simply no better than the people you hate.

Yes DS we could all be bosses couldnt we , all be millionaiires,

Why does everything have to be extreme in this place?

Oh shit! Is it half term again?
Yet you seem to reject anyone who wants to help those that come from similar backgrounds and label them as spouting tory rhetoric. You appear to jump to conclusions about people without knowing anything about their backgrounds.
You seem happy to dismiss the ideas of others yet don’t offer your own.
You are simply no better than the people you hate.

oh dear 🙂

as a few others have pointed out your comments are fairly naive but I don’t hate you for them.

as a few others have pointed out your comments are fairly naive but I don’t hate you for them.

Are these the comments that follow your view that if you can’t be a millionaire, it’s not worth doing?
I’m happy with that level of naivety. You keep on fighting the fight brother and I’ll continue helping people eh?

no-one is suggesting that its fine to sit on your arse and do nothing about your situation, what the more enlightened amoung us are observing is that

I never suggested you did suggest it, I simply said the opposite is perfectly possible in this country. That’s the only point i was trying to stress here – i.e. as I said, social mobility is fine in the UK, people taking up on societies offers is less well patronised.

its far easier to make a success out of yourself if you come from a reasonably affluent background…as you yourself have (inadvertently) proved.

I don’t actually see it as being any more difficult, I don’t think my position proved anything. I started from scratch, I got the same chances at qualifications anyone else did until I became an adult, from there I tracked down further chances and opportunities for myself, I tracked down multiple part time jobs to pay for stuff. I don’t see how that was any different from anyone else, other than in mind-set and effort. My parents position, when looked at in this light, gave me nothing more over a less well off family (and we were in no way “well off”) than a good work ethic and a comfy house, which didn’t exactly come free – as I said, my parents worked multiple jobs to keep food on the table when I was a sprog. Sure, all kids should get education to a level for free but beyond that life is what you make of it. If you parents are not capable of providing for you then they need to step up and provide a bare minimum of care, or expect to have you removed. They chose to have kids, they need to be sure they can provide for them for life. In the case where they were working and end up out of work outside their own doing, sure they need help and finance for some time – I’m all for that, benefits far outweigh the damage of a family destitute, but that needs to be kept in check and for there to be some reason for a person to get back into work ASAP. And don’t give me the balls about lack of jobs, I’ve first hand experience that shows that even in the most deprived areas of Glasgow there’s jobs to be had by anyone with a good worth ethic. Not great pay, but enough to live on just fine.

As I say, I don’t subscribe to any specific ideology but I do believe the far left (and right) views are nonsense.

The only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it’s ok to sit back and do bugger all

Wow, that’s quite a bold statement.

So you don’t believe that drug addiction, abuse, poor quality schooling, social deprivation, mental health problems, disabilities etc have any impact at all on peoples’ ability to get on in life? And you think if people don’t succeed it’s all the fault of hand-wringing lefties?

Really?

That’s the only point i was trying to stress here – i.e. as I said, social mobility is fine in the UK, people taking up on societies offers is less well patronised.

What are you basing it that statement on exactly? Social mobility is significantly worse than in most other developed countries, as I said earlier, and people from privileged backgrounds are still far, far more likely to get into positions of money and power. Where is your evidence that it’s ‘fine’?

My parents position, when looked at in this light, gave me nothing more over a less well off family (and we were in no way “well off”) than a good work ethic and a comfy house

I can’t honestly believe you are downplaying the importance of those things. 🙄

Many of the kids I have worked with come from incredibly chaotic/abusive/negative home backgrounds would kill to have supportive parents and a ‘comfy house’.

So you don’t believe that drug addiction, abuse, poor quality schooling, social deprivation, mental health problems, disabilities etc have any impact at all on peoples’ ability to get on in life? And you think if people don’t succeed it’s all the fault of hand-wringing lefties?

That’s quite clearly exactly what I’ve said, almost word for word if you look carefully enough. You’re terribly bright grum.
So anyone from a deprived background who is addicted to drugs, abused, has poor quality schooling (this might actually be quite important), socially deprived, have mental health problems, disabilities etc, should be labelled as such, told they don’t have a future and should really know their places and consequently not make the effort because the mere idea of doing well for oneself is pure theory?
really?

The only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it’s ok to sit back and do bugger all, people like you.

What else does this mean?

So are they scrum because they are tory, tory because they are scum or is it just coincidence and there is scum all round?

Cillit Bang is good with scum apparently – or is it semtex bang? I never can remember

So anyone from a deprived background who is addicted to drugs, abused, has poor quality schooling (this might actually be quite important), socially deprived, have mental health problems, disabilities etc, should be labelled as such, told they don’t have a future and should really know their places and consequently not make the effort because the mere idea of doing well for oneself is pure theory?
really?

Nope – we should be realistic and honest about the challenges these people face and help and support them to make something of their lives. Instead of ignoring their problems and blaming them for being lazy and feckless as the reason why they’re poor.

Improving aspiration is obviously desirable – pretending they can all be CEOs or Alan Sugar or even MPs/cabinet members isn’t realistic or helpful though.

coffeeking thinking he is totally ‘self-made’ despite coming from a supportive family background is a classic example of the way myths get created/perpetuated.

Nope – we should be realistic and honest about the challenges these people face and help and support them to make something of their lives.

Enough of your tory rhetoric, young man! 😀

Instead of ignoring their problems and blaming them for being lazy and feckless as the reason why they’re poor.

Not sure anyone has called them lazy either. 😉

Enough of your tory rhetoric, young man!

That’s not Tory rhetoric – where in the Tory rhetoric is the bit about helping and supporting them? That’s just nanny-state leftist molly-coddling surely. Survival of the fittest is the Tory way.

The only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it’s ok to sit back and do bugger all, people like you.

Perhaps we should do a Norman Tebbit and tell them to get on their bikes. Then they could get to the places where the jobs are, you know places like the south east with the high property prices, particularly around schools performing well.

Why does everything have to be extreme in this place?

Well its a reaction to your extreme view that “the only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it’s ok to sit back and do bugger all, people like you”, kind of jibe.

To believe that simply telling people “you’re on your own, now get on with it” in this day and age and expect those less fortunate than ourselves to dig themselves out of a hole without providing the foundations on which they can achieve their potential…well we’ve been doing that in this country for a while now.

Instead of ignoring their problems and blaming them for being lazy and feckless as the reason why they’re poor.

It costs less to do so. It’s an individual wiping his hands clean of his responsibility to wider society. It’s very tory.

That’s not Tory rhetoric

Ask yossarian, he seems to think that anything positive is theory and tory rhetoric.
If you look at what I posted, I mean really look, you’ll see that I want to encourage people from all backgrounds to succeed and stand on their own two feet, and that with the right support they can. Telling them it’s theory doesn’t help anyone. 🙁

Those Tories, they love you to think you have a chance to better yourself, but you only have to look at how they shouted “Gin & Tonic Steward” whenever Prescott stood up to speak in the House of Commons – proof that they don’t really like it when someone does manage to drag himself up through the morass. Right wingers, they don’t like it up ’em.

If you look at what I posted, I mean really look, you’ll see that I want to encourage people from all backgrounds to succeed and stand on their own two feet, and that with the right support they can.

Doesn’t seem like it to me – seems like you want to tell people that unless they strive incredibly hard to compete effectively against people who have massive advantages over them they are lazy failures.

with the right support they can.

But isn’t supporting them just nanny-state molly-coddling encouraging dependency and fecklessness? And what about those that can’t, even with the right support (which this government in particular seems to have absolutely no interest in giving)? **** em eh? Lazy scum.

Improving aspiration is obviously desirable – pretending they can all be CEOs or Alan Sugar or even MPs/cabinet members isn’t realistic or helpful though.

Why would everyone want to aspire to that?

Surely a more realistic and potentially even more fulfilling aspiration would be to re-educate yourself, achieve a career you can be proud of, possibly purchase your own home & build a family you can be even more proud of, in an area you enjoy living in?

None of these things are beyond anyone should they truly desire them, the opportunities are available. Yes you will have to work hard, is that your problem?

If your heart only desires monetary riches then its unlikely your first or second POA will result in wealth, but if you set your mind to it and learn from your mistakes – and are willing to put in a ton of hard work, who’s to say one of your ideas may not bear fruit?

Of course we can’t all be millionaires, providing the economy doesnt go all Mugabe.
But we can all acheive, even the users, abused etc (even the rich/wealthy abused/users – they exist too)

If you look at what I posted, I mean really look, you’ll see that I want to encourage people from all backgrounds to succeed and stand on their own two feet, and that with the right support they can.

There wasn’t anything about “encouraging” and “support”. You said :

“Regarding having the ability to get off your arse and do something positive is within reach of everyone.”

Which is pretty bog standard cheap and meaningless Tory rhetoric.

Now tell me that I’m a “condescending little twerp” and how you feel “insulted”.

Oh dear 🙂

Which is pretty bog standard cheap and meaningless Tory rhetoric.

by that standard, blaming others is your rhetoric

Doesn’t seem like it to me

Well it would, wouldn’t it?

Lazy scum.

I keep telling them this and they never let me down.

“Regarding having the ability to get off your arse and do something positive is within reach of everyone.”

As you are normally so good at reading into statements, I’m really surprised that you didn’t pick it up ernesto.

by that standard, blaming others is your rhetoric

Oh it is, is it ? So where have I blamed “others” ?

Do tell me.

Surely a more realistic and potentially even more fulfilling aspiration would be to re-educate yourself, achieve a career you can be proud of, possibly purchase your own home & build a family you can be even more proud of, in an area you enjoy living in?

Yes ok.

None of these things are beyond anyone should they truly desire them, the opportunities are available. Yes you will have to work hard, is that your problem?

What you seem to fail to realise up in your ivory tower is how unattainable all that seems to many people – often with good reason. These kind of statements usually come from those who had a good start in life, were brought up with good values and aspirations, and who’s parents valued working hard and achieving in life. Many people don’t have that.

You do realise that there actually aren’t enough jobs for everyone to have one – so how is this dream available to everyone exactly? Set up their own business? OK, can everyone do that – then there will be no-one unemployed right?

What you seem to fail to realise up in your ivory tower is how unattainable all that seems to many people – often with good reason.

And very often that good reasonm is that they are given the excuses for failing before they even try.

You do realise that there actually aren’t enough jobs for everyone to have one

No shit? But hey, let’s just throw something else into the fray. I assume that this is why getting people off their arses to do something positive is pure theory. Hadn’t thought of that to be honest.

Those Tories, they love you to think you have a chance to better yourself, but you only have to look at how they shouted “Gin & Tonic Steward” whenever Prescott stood up to speak in the House of Commons – proof that they don’t really like it when someone does manage to drag himself up through the morass.

applauds

they do like it if you forget your roots and become greedy like them though
EDIT: for balance I assume we all accept that people will get beeter outcomes via effort but it is not true to suggest this aloone will equal success or that everyone succesful did actually work hard*

* i am happy to accept murdochs son worked hard and still does but I am sure he is where he is because he is Murdochs son rather than any personal skill/hard work other reason [ as recent events show] on his part.

And very often that good reasonm is that they are given the excuses for failing before they even try.

Right, so the problem is not that people find it hard to get on in life when they come from a deprived background, have problems with drugs/alcohol/abuse, have poor quality schooling, mental health problems, disabilities, parents that either don’t care or actively discourage achievement, and live in an area of high unemployment/crime, it’s that they’ve read the Guardian too often and it told them it’s ok to be lazy. Hmmmm….

By the way, in my work I actually do encourage young people from deprived backgrounds to make something of themselves. I imagine given that you are obviously very passionate about this issue you do something similar right?

And grum closes in with the moral high ground pincer movement. 🙂