Tory Scum

Tory politics is the politics of self-interest rather than caring about the common good – ‘I’m alright Jack’ writ large.

Have you (pl) ever considered that it’s more a question of the self made telling the rest of the world that you too (pl) have an opportunity do do something for yourself (pl)? This is a preferred way to doing it over simply relying on handouts or that someone else finds the solution for you (pl).
Just a thought.
[/devil’s advocate].

pops up, 80% of the time, it happens all the time

Pretty sad outlook on life if you just readily accept that people are mostly selfish and greedy, don’t see that as a problem and act accordingly. I can see why you would vote Tory though.

I would also argue that a lot of the selfishness/greediness you readily accept is not human nature, it’s because reckless competition and self-interest is lauded by the out-of-control capitalist system we have.

Have you (pl) ever considered that it’s more a question of the self made telling the rest of the world that you too (pl) have an opportunity do do something for yourself (pl)?

The self-made like those in the cabinet you mean? We have terrible social mobility in this country with the odd exception that proves the rule – suggesting to many people that they have the same opportunities as the incredibly privileged people running the country is ludicrous.

The self-made like those in the cabinet you mean? We have terrible social mobility in this country with the odd exception – suggesting to many people that they have the same opportunities as those running the country is ludicrous.

Agreed. You will be in favour of bringing back grammar schools then right?

the self made

The present Tory front-bench…self made? Yeah roight!

EDIT: Oops, grum said it before me. 😛

Agreed. You will be in favour of bringing back grammar schools then right?

yossarian, I trully like your new world view, but I fear human nature will always prevail, no matter the colour of the party

ah the classic tory refuge 🙂

I would say the one saving grace of mankind is human nature. When given the chance most people look after each other. A few don’t i suppose, but they probably have little blue rosettes… 😉

The self-made like those in the cabinet you mean?

That’s exactly what I’m talking about. Looking at a few and mistakingly forming an extreme view rather than being a bit less extreme like the majority of the back benchers.
Regarding having the ability to get off your arse and do something positive is within reach of everyone. I’m not talking about the Lord Sugars, I’m talking about the likes of TheArtistFormerlyKnownAS…. who’s got off his arse and done something. An example to many of what can be done.

suggesting to many people that they have the same opportunities as those running the country is ludicrous.

This I agree with, Labour/Conservative, they’re all the same. It’s about power not the politics.

And baggy starfishes.

The self-made like those in the cabinet you mean? We have terrible social mobility in this country with the odd exception that proves the rule – suggesting to many people that they have the same opportunities as the incredibly privileged people running the country is ludicrous.

I don’t think that’s true, and I’d ask for your proof of this. While a small minority of very high end positions may favour the landed, most positions are open to anyone if they put the effort in. The very fact that there are notable exceptions proves that social mobility is perfectly possible in some fairly large extremes, it’s just that those involved must put in exceptional effort to get to exceptional places in general, which is perfectly acceptable to me (I’m less keen on people with cash getting positions without any effort, but that doesn’t mean social mobility is dead). I dislike the folk who will sit there and tell people that social mobility is poor and you won’t get anywhere if you don’t know the right people or have cash, because it’s patently not true – there’s plenty of kids of working class folk who end up directors of multinationals or high up management of some sort or other on good wages. It certainly isn’t the case that born-poor, always poor, unless you are not encouraged – which is down to family values.

Regarding having the ability to get off your arse and do something positive is within reach of everyone

lovely theory but thats all it is.

Pretty sad outlook on life if you just readily accept that people are mostly selfish and greedy

im amazed anyone could think otherwise – particularly when refering to politicians/leaders.

reckless competition and self-interest is lauded by the out-of-control capitalist system we have.

I tend to agree here, capitalism has a massive influence on the evil we are refering to. I for one wish to live in a Star-Trek-esque society, where money doesnt exist, and we all work for the love of each other.
But Russia tried that, didn’t end too well either.

lovely theory but thats all it is.

Best you don’t even try then, isn’t it?
That’s a sad outlook… 😥

I dislike the folk who will sit there and tell people that social mobility is poor and you won’t get anywhere if you don’t know the right people or have cash, because it’s patently not true – there’s plenty of kids of working class folk who end up directors of multinationals or high up management of some sort or other on good wages.

Here you go:

The Going for Growth report found Britain showed the strongest link between an individual’s and their parents’ earnings. The higher the bar, the lower earnings mobility across generations. Source: OECD

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/10/oecd-uk-worst-social-mobility

I tend to agree here, capitalism has a massive influence on the evil we are refering to. I for one wish to live in a Star-Trek-esque society, where money doesnt exist, and we all work for the love of each other.
But Russia tried that, didn’t end too well either.

Yes, because the only options are the rampant capitalism which is working so well, or soviet Russia – no possibility of following the Scandinavian socialist model which seems to deliver some of the highest living standards in the world. 🙄

lovely theory but thats all it is.

Not really, it’s proved all over the country day in day out.

The Going for Growth report found Britain showed the strongest link between an individual’s and their parents’ earnings. The higher the bar, the lower earnings mobility across generations. S

But that proves nothing. It could equally be used to prove that increasing number of folks just settle for what their parents did. It doesn’t, in any way, show how POSSIBLE it is to improve yourself, just the likelyhood that folk do.

I don’t think that’s true, and I’d ask for your proof of this. While a small minority of very high end positions may favour the landed, most positions are open to anyone if they put the effort in. The very fact that there are notable exceptions proves that social mobility is perfectly possible in some fairly large extremes, it’s just that those involved must put in exceptional effort to get to exceptional places in general, which is perfectly acceptable to me (I’m less keen on people with cash getting positions without any effort, but that doesn’t mean social mobility is dead). I dislike the folk who will sit there and tell people that social mobility is poor and you won’t get anywhere if you don’t know the right people or have cash, because it’s patently not true – there’s plenty of kids of working class folk who end up directors of multinationals or high up management of some sort or other on good wages. It certainly isn’t the case that born-poor, always poor, unless you are not encouraged – which is down to family values.

I massively agree.

I just chose to be a lazy arse instead of taking many of the abundant opportunities gifted my way when I was growing up.

grum – are you possibly confusing class with aspiration and role models?

There is a “stark gap” between the life chances of the poorest and the better-off in Britain, the Government will admit today, as it publishes alarming research that reveals how wide that gulf is.

The study, to be unveiled by Nick Clegg, shows that:

l One child in five is on free school meals, but only one in 100 Oxbridge entrants is.

l Only 7 per cent of children attend private schools, but these schools provide 70 per cent of High Court judges and 54 per cent of FTSE 100 chief executives.

l One in five children from poorer homes achieves five good GCSEs, compared with three out of four from affluent homes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/born-poor-stay-poor-the-scandal-of-social-immobility-7771336.html

Not really, it’s proved all over the country day in day out.

No-one is denying it’s possible to pull yourself up – but effort aside it’s made much much harder for many people than it is for many others.

Denying that is just basic denial of reality.

How on earth has this made it to page 3 without exploded pie charts, histograms and pivot point calculations?

EDIT – wait there it has, I’m too late – superb 😀

are you possibly confusing class with aspiration and role models?

I’m sure he’ll answer for himself, but I’d say not.

Jeez, the flecker keeps getting in before me. 🙂

Yes, because the only options are the rampant capitalism which is working so well, or soviet Russia – no possibility of following the Scandinavian socialist model which seems to deliver some of the highest living standards in the world.

i’m down with that, give me Scandanavian politics tomorrow and ill vote for it.

id still be worried about it going all Russia stylee though.

WunUndred 😀

But Russia tried that, didn’t end too well either.

Citing the former USSR is a bit lazy, imo – especially given the issues we face in this country. I work in healthcare, and believe me, when the sh1te hits the fan, stuff gets sorted by people co-operating. There’s a massive gulf between Lansley’s endless wibble about how choice and competition is improving the NHS & what is actually happening on the ground (various “partnered” interests creaming off easy & profitable stuff, and passing the buck on complex patients – which is partly why acute care is being ever-more dumped upon).

“Competition”: great for bringing me new disc brakes & MP3 players, not so great as a soundbite solution for, say, the healthcare needs of an increasingly elderly population.

Edit:

i’m down with that, give me Scandanavian politics tomorrow and ill vote for it.

OK, we have some middle ground.

I’ve yet to meet a tory who when pressed actually gives a shit about the poor.

I should qualify what giving a shit actually means I suppose. Yes, they care about cheap sources of labour to provide support to big businesses but no they don’t care about poverty, its effects on families and totaaly distance themselves from any kind of moral resposnibility to help people without either being condescending or imposing some kind of ‘social contract’ that turns them into little tories.

nothing worse than a working class tory is there?

You don’t get out much then, evidently. 🙄

“Well the Tories on here don’t appear to be up for the challenge when “Tory scum” is screamed at them”

Wonder where they all are…..?

Maybe out working hard for a better future ??

Rather than wasting time moaning about the state of things

Best you don’t even try then, isn’t it?
That’s a sad outlook…

you deliberately misunderstand me.

Yes, theoretically anyone can do anything. However its not a level playing field is it? e.G. Students from poor backgrounds can claim EMA to help them with their studies, trouble is the students from the poorest background have to use the money to suppliment the family income. Ever tried getting a job that pays enough to live on and progress when you live in a an area of social depravation where educational standards are lower than the norm, where the only jobs available are low paid and offer little progression? How about if you come from a family where no-one has had a decent job in a generation? Make no mistake Don Simon, we live in a society where millions of the worst off have effectively been abandoned by the state, and yes it started with maggie.

but hey its ok, because anyone can achieve anything with the right attitude. pass me a f-cking bucket.

But that proves nothing. It could equally be used to prove that increasing number of folks just settle for what their parents did. It doesn’t, in any way, show how POSSIBLE it is to improve yourself, just the likelyhood that folk do.

What a bizarre argument to claim it has no relevance at all – you may have a point that it doesn’t conclusively prove the case but you really don’t see any connection? 😕

grum – are you possibly confusing class with aspiration and role models?

No. But aspiration is important clearly – a lack of it is one factor that hampers people from difficult backgrounds in trying to achieve things in life, yes. Not sure what your point is really.

Right, I’m going out in the sunshine.

darcy – shall we spoon sometime?

Wonder where they all are…..?

Ascot.

Maybe out working hard for a better future ??

For themselves, while screwing over everyone else – because that’s what life’s all about apparently. 🙁

Maybe out working hard for a better future ??

😀

Maybe out working hard for a better future ??

i missed that gem 🙂

I made this myself the other night…

How can anyone hate the people that came up with such a splendid pudding. Infact my voting is now going to be entirely based on who makes the nicest cakes.

Ever tried getting a job that pays enough to live on and progress when you live in a an area of social depravation where educational standards are lower than the norm, where the only jobs available are low paid and offer little progression?

Yep, my grandparents did and dug themselves into a better position for my parents. My parents worked 4 jobs between them to move to a better location and so I had a better start. That’s how it works, you either want it for yourself or your kids or you don’t, but don’t be expecting handouts all you life if you choose not to. If you’re not willing to work towards something better, don’t expect to get any better. I’m not suggesting it’s right that some at the top don’t have to work for what they get – far from it, but I don’t agree that those at the bottom have no option. Where my parents were from it was considered a disgrace to claim anything from the state as it was for people on their last legs, you did it at the very last option while trawling the streets looking for work daily, for as long as it took. Being out of work was not considered a reason to claim, it was considered a reason to try harder.

(Incidentally I’m not a tory voter – I vote by policy rather than ideology).

no-one is suggesting that its fine to sit on your arse and do nothing about your situation, what the more enlightened amoung us are observing is that its far easier to make a success out of yourself if you come from a reasonably affluent background…as you yourself have (inadvertently) proved.

don’t be expecting handouts all you life

Handouts ? Why should anyone expect handouts ?

A living wage is all that is needed.

Unfortunately Tories aren’t too keen on that idea.

.

Being out of work was not considered a reason to claim, it was considered a reason to try harder.

Unemployment is a wonderful business opportunity to depress wages further.

Rather a drastic measure Zulu-Eleven ? 😕

Just accept that you are a right-wing Tory swivel eyed loon. Seriously mate, there’s no point trying to hide it.

Tory? Pah, I’m far more right wing than them Ernie 😆

Previously you’ve pointed out that I’m actually a right wing anarchist!

How can anyone hate the people that came up with such a splendid pudding. Infact my voting is now going to be entirely based on who makes the nicest cakes.

I have rarely been so diasspointed on a thread than when I read that

I always had you down as more of a tart man myself if I am honest 😥

Ever tried getting a job that pays enough to live on and progress when you live in a an area of social depravation where educational standards are lower than the norm, where the only jobs available are low paid and offer little progression?

Yes.

How about if you come from a family where no-one has had a decent job in a generation? Make no mistake Don Simon, we live in a society where millions of the worst off have effectively been abandoned by the state, and yes it started with maggie.

Thanks for the lecture. 🙄
Ever been to Stamford Road, Blacon?

Thanks for the lecture.

you are most welcome, anytime you need your moral compass adjusting from ‘f-ck you jack’, to ‘take my arm brother’, just ask 😉