[Closed] Tory Scum

Tory politics is the politics of self-interest rather than caring about the common good - 'I'm alright Jack' writ large.

pops up, 80% of the time, it happens all the time

Pretty sad outlook on life if you just readily accept that people are mostly selfish and greedy, don't see that as a problem and act accordingly. I can see why you would vote Tory though.

I would also argue that a lot of the selfishness/greediness you readily accept is not human nature, it's because reckless competition and self-interest is lauded by the out-of-control capitalist system we have.

Have you (pl) ever considered that it's more a question of the self made telling the rest of the world that you too (pl) have an opportunity do do something for yourself (pl)?

The self-made like those in the cabinet you mean? We have terrible social mobility in this country with the odd exception that proves the rule - suggesting to many people that they have the same opportunities as the incredibly privileged people running the country is ludicrous.

The self-made like those in the cabinet you mean? We have terrible social mobility in this country with the odd exception - suggesting to many people that they have the same opportunities as those running the country is ludicrous.

Agreed. You will be in favour of bringing back grammar schools then right?

the self made

The present Tory front-bench...self made? Yeah roight!

EDIT: Oops, grum said it before me. 😛

Agreed. You will be in favour of bringing back grammar schools then right?

[img] [/img]

yossarian, I trully like your new world view, but I fear human nature will always prevail, no matter the colour of the party

ah the classic tory refuge 🙂

I would say the one saving grace of mankind is human nature. When given the chance most people look after each other. A few don't i suppose, but they probably have little blue rosettes... 😉

The self-made like those in the cabinet you mean?

suggesting to many people that they have the same opportunities as those running the country is ludicrous.

And baggy starfishes.

The self-made like those in the cabinet you mean? We have terrible social mobility in this country with the odd exception that proves the rule - suggesting to many people that they have the same opportunities as the incredibly privileged people running the country is ludicrous.

I don't think that's true, and I'd ask for your proof of this. While a small minority of very high end positions may favour the landed, most positions are open to anyone if they put the effort in. The very fact that there are notable exceptions proves that social mobility is perfectly possible in some fairly large extremes, it's just that those involved must put in exceptional effort to get to exceptional places in general, which is perfectly acceptable to me (I'm less keen on people with cash getting positions without any effort, but that doesn't mean social mobility is dead). I dislike the folk who will sit there and tell people that social mobility is poor and you won't get anywhere if you don't know the right people or have cash, because it's patently not true - there's plenty of kids of working class folk who end up directors of multinationals or high up management of some sort or other on good wages. It certainly isn't the case that born-poor, always poor, unless you are not encouraged - which is down to family values.

Regarding having the ability to get off your arse and do something positive is within reach of everyone

lovely theory but thats all it is.

Pretty sad outlook on life if you just readily accept that people are mostly selfish and greedy

im amazed anyone could think otherwise - particularly when refering to politicians/leaders.

reckless competition and self-interest is lauded by the out-of-control capitalist system we have.

I tend to agree here, capitalism has a massive influence on the evil we are refering to. I for one wish to live in a Star-Trek-esque society, where money doesnt exist, and we all work for the love of each other.
But Russia tried that, didn't end too well either.

lovely theory but thats all it is.

I dislike the folk who will sit there and tell people that social mobility is poor and you won't get anywhere if you don't know the right people or have cash, because it's patently not true - there's plenty of kids of working class folk who end up directors of multinationals or high up management of some sort or other on good wages.

Here you go:

[img] [/img]

The Going for Growth report found Britain showed the strongest link between an individual's and their parents' earnings. The higher the bar, the lower earnings mobility across generations. Source: OECD

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/10/oecd-uk-worst-social-mobility

I tend to agree here, capitalism has a massive influence on the evil we are refering to. I for one wish to live in a Star-Trek-esque society, where money doesnt exist, and we all work for the love of each other.
But Russia tried that, didn't end too well either.

Yes, because the only options are the rampant capitalism which is working so well, or soviet Russia - no possibility of following the Scandinavian socialist model which seems to deliver some of the highest living standards in the world. 🙄

lovely theory but thats all it is.

Not really, it's proved all over the country day in day out.

The Going for Growth report found Britain showed the strongest link between an individual's and their parents' earnings. The higher the bar, the lower earnings mobility across generations. S

But that proves nothing. It could equally be used to prove that increasing number of folks just settle for what their parents did. It doesn't, in any way, show how POSSIBLE it is to improve yourself, just the likelyhood that folk do.

I don't think that's true, and I'd ask for your proof of this. While a small minority of very high end positions may favour the landed, most positions are open to anyone if they put the effort in. The very fact that there are notable exceptions proves that social mobility is perfectly possible in some fairly large extremes, it's just that those involved must put in exceptional effort to get to exceptional places in general, which is perfectly acceptable to me (I'm less keen on people with cash getting positions without any effort, but that doesn't mean social mobility is dead). I dislike the folk who will sit there and tell people that social mobility is poor and you won't get anywhere if you don't know the right people or have cash, because it's patently not true - there's plenty of kids of working class folk who end up directors of multinationals or high up management of some sort or other on good wages. It certainly isn't the case that born-poor, always poor, unless you are not encouraged - which is down to family values.

I massively agree.

I just chose to be a lazy arse instead of taking many of the abundant opportunities gifted my way when I was growing up.

grum - are you possibly confusing class with aspiration and role models?

There is a "stark gap" between the life chances of the poorest and the better-off in Britain, the Government will admit today, as it publishes alarming research that reveals how wide that gulf is.

The study, to be unveiled by Nick Clegg, shows that:

l One child in five is on free school meals, but only one in 100 Oxbridge entrants is.

l Only 7 per cent of children attend private schools, but these schools provide 70 per cent of High Court judges and 54 per cent of FTSE 100 chief executives.

l One in five children from poorer homes achieves five good GCSEs, compared with three out of four from affluent homes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/born-poor-stay-poor-the-scandal-of-social-immobility-7771336.html

Not really, it's proved all over the country day in day out.

No-one is denying it's possible to pull yourself up - but effort aside it's made much [i]much[/i] harder for many people than it is for many others.

Denying that is just basic denial of reality.

How on earth has this made it to page 3 without exploded pie charts, histograms and pivot point calculations?

EDIT - wait there it has, I'm too late - superb 😀

are you possibly confusing class with aspiration and role models?

I'm sure he'll answer for himself, but I'd say not.

Jeez, the flecker keeps getting in before me. 🙂

Yes, because the only options are the rampant capitalism which is working so well, or soviet Russia - no possibility of following the Scandinavian socialist model which seems to deliver some of the highest living standards in the world.

i'm down with that, give me Scandanavian politics tomorrow and ill vote for it.

id still be worried about it going all Russia stylee though.

WunUndred 😀

But Russia tried that, didn't end too well either.

Citing the former USSR is a bit lazy, imo - especially given the issues we face in this country. I work in healthcare, and believe me, when the sh1te hits the fan, stuff gets sorted by people [i]co-operating[/i]. There's a [b]massive[/b] gulf between Lansley's endless wibble about how choice and competition is improving the NHS & what is actually happening on the ground (various "partnered" interests creaming off easy & profitable stuff, and passing the buck on complex patients - which is partly why acute care is being ever-more dumped upon).

"Competition": great for bringing me new disc brakes & MP3 players, not so great as a soundbite solution for, say, the healthcare needs of an increasingly elderly population.

Edit:

i'm down with that, give me Scandanavian politics tomorrow and ill vote for it.

OK, we have some middle ground.

I've yet to meet a tory who when pressed actually gives a shit about the poor.

I should qualify what giving a shit actually means I suppose. Yes, they care about cheap sources of labour to provide support to big businesses but no they don't care about poverty, its effects on families and totaaly distance themselves from any kind of moral resposnibility to help people without either being condescending or imposing some kind of 'social contract' that turns them into little tories.

nothing worse than a working class tory is there?

You don't get out much then, evidently. 🙄

"Well the Tories on here don't appear to be up for the challenge when "Tory scum" is screamed at them"

Wonder where they all are.....?

Maybe out working hard for a better future ??

Rather than wasting time moaning about the state of things

Best you don't even try then, isn't it?
That's a sad outlook...

you deliberately misunderstand me.

Yes, theoretically anyone can do anything. However its not a level playing field is it? e.G. Students from poor backgrounds can claim EMA to help them with their studies, trouble is the students from the poorest background have to use the money to suppliment the family income. Ever tried getting a job that pays enough to live on and progress when you live in a an area of social depravation where educational standards are lower than the norm, where the only jobs available are low paid and offer little progression? How about if you come from a family where no-one has had a decent job in a generation? Make no mistake Don Simon, we live in a society where millions of the worst off have effectively been abandoned by the state, and yes it started with maggie.

but hey its ok, because anyone can achieve anything with the right attitude. pass me a f-cking bucket.

But that proves nothing. It could equally be used to prove that increasing number of folks just settle for what their parents did. It doesn't, in any way, show how POSSIBLE it is to improve yourself, just the likelyhood that folk do.

What a bizarre argument to claim it has no relevance at all - you may have a point that it doesn't conclusively prove the case but you really don't see any connection? 😕

grum - are you possibly confusing class with aspiration and role models?

No. But aspiration is important clearly - a lack of it is one factor that hampers people from difficult backgrounds in trying to achieve things in life, yes. Not sure what your point is really.

Right, I'm going out in the sunshine.

darcy - shall we spoon sometime?

Wonder where they all are.....?

Ascot.

Maybe out working hard for a better future ??

For themselves, while screwing over everyone else - because that's what life's all about apparently. 🙁

Maybe out working hard for a better future ??

😀

Maybe out working hard for a better future ??

i missed that gem 🙂

I made this myself the other night...

[img] [/img]

How can anyone hate the people that came up with such a splendid pudding. Infact my voting is now going to be entirely based on who makes the nicest cakes.

Ever tried getting a job that pays enough to live on and progress when you live in a an area of social depravation where educational standards are lower than the norm, where the only jobs available are low paid and offer little progression?

Yep, my grandparents did and dug themselves into a better position for my parents. My parents worked 4 jobs between them to move to a better location and so I had a better start. That's how it works, you either want it for yourself or your kids or you don't, but don't be expecting handouts all you life if you choose not to. If you're not willing to work towards something better, don't expect to get any better. I'm not suggesting it's right that some at the top don't have to work for what they get - far from it, but I don't agree that those at the bottom have no option. Where my parents were from it was considered a disgrace to claim anything from the state as it was for people on their last legs, you did it at the very last option while trawling the streets looking for work daily, for as long as it took. Being out of work was not considered a reason to claim, it was considered a reason to try harder.

(Incidentally I'm not a tory voter - I vote by policy rather than ideology).

no-one is suggesting that its fine to sit on your arse and do nothing about your situation, what the more enlightened amoung us are observing is that its far easier to make a success out of yourself if you come from a reasonably affluent background...as you yourself have (inadvertently) proved.

don't be expecting handouts all you life

Handouts ? Why should anyone expect handouts ?

A living wage is all that is needed.

Unfortunately Tories aren't too keen on that idea.

.

Being out of work was not considered a reason to claim, it was considered a reason to try harder.

Unemployment is a wonderful business opportunity to depress wages further.

[img] [/img]

Rather a drastic measure Zulu-Eleven ? 😕

Just accept that you are a right-wing Tory swivel eyed loon. Seriously mate, there's no point trying to hide it.

Tory? Pah, I'm far more right wing than them Ernie 😆

Previously you've pointed out that I'm actually a right wing anarchist!

[img] [/img]

How can anyone hate the people that came up with such a splendid pudding. Infact my voting is now going to be entirely based on who makes the nicest cakes.

I always had you down as more of a tart man myself if I am honest 😥

Ever tried getting a job that pays enough to live on and progress when you live in a an area of social depravation where educational standards are lower than the norm, where the only jobs available are low paid and offer little progression?

How about if you come from a family where no-one has had a decent job in a generation? Make no mistake Don Simon, we live in a society where millions of the worst off have effectively been abandoned by the state, and yes it started with maggie.

Thanks for the lecture.

you are most welcome, anytime you need your moral compass adjusting from 'f-ck you jack', to 'take my arm brother', just ask 😉

you are most welcome, anytime you need your moral compass adjusting from 'f-ck you jack', to 'take my arm brother', just ask

oh dear

oh dear

"[s]Tories[/s] Two legs baaaad, [s]Labour[/s] Four Legs gooood. [s]Tories[/s] Two Legs baaaad, [s]Labour[/s] Four Legs goooood....."

Yes, oh dear indeed you condascening little twerp

do you always resort to insults when someone else disagrees with you? sign of a weak man in my experience. If you feel insulted perhpas stop trotting out the same old tory rhetoric, it doesn't wash any more.

If you feel insulted perhpas stop trotting out the same old tory rhetoric,

ernie_lynch - Member

Just accept that you are a right-wing Tory swivel eyed loon. Seriously mate, there's no point trying to hide it.

You are TJ and I claim my £5 🙂

.
.
.Hang on a mo - something wrong here

its that combined with the rest of what you've said Don Simon, its true blue through and through. For every person that manages to get themselves out of poverty there are many, many more who don't for a hundred different reasons. Does that mean its ok that they stay there and pass on the poor start that they had to their kids?

Why is getting off your arse to improve yourself tory rhetoric?*

Because the nature of the top down nature of capitalism means that most must fail so the very rich can live of their labour. it is simply maths

of course they need to sell the dream that if you work hard you can escape poverty and become one of them, they may even give exemplars of self made [ working class] folk done good like Alan sugar...how ever if you think his outcomes are typical of everyone who worked hard from a poor background you are very much mistaken. If you think we could all achieve this you are very much mistaken

The flip side is to infer [ I don’t think you do but the argument does] that if you are poor it is because you did not try hard enough and if you are wealthy you did and you earned it which is also BS and if you wish to argue it is please use the Duke of Westminster and the Queen as examples of hard work bringing success [ please don’t DS I am sure you could do this easily, you may even could do it coherently 😉 ]

* If we did not work hard they would have no one to exploit - see also the proterestant work ethic about how installing the notion work is good makes it easier to exploit the proles for your personal gain

Does that mean its ok that they stay there and pass on the poor start that they had to their kids?

The only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it's ok to sit back and do bugger all, people like you.

don't be expecting handouts all you life if you choose not to.

The only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it's ok to sit back and do bugger all, people like you.

ha! never said that, never thought that, never done that. try again.

The only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it's ok to sit back and do bugger all, people like you

DS yes folk can improve themselves with effort but please calm down dear 😉

So if everyone worked hard then the total population of a country could become multimillionaires - cool.

EDIT - beat me to it.

ha! never said that, never thought that, never done that. try again.

Yes DS we could all be bosses couldnt we , all be millionaiires,

Oh shit! Is it half term again?
Yet you seem to reject anyone who wants to help those that come from similar backgrounds and label them as spouting tory rhetoric. You appear to jump to conclusions about people without knowing anything about their backgrounds.
You seem happy to dismiss the ideas of others yet don't offer your own.
You are simply no better than the people you hate.

oh dear 🙂

as a few others have pointed out your comments are fairly naive but I don't hate you for them.

as a few others have pointed out your comments are fairly naive but I don't hate you for them.

no-one is suggesting that its fine to sit on your arse and do nothing about your situation, what the more enlightened amoung us are observing is that

I never suggested you did suggest it, I simply said the opposite is perfectly possible in this country. That's the only point i was trying to stress here - i.e. as I said, social mobility is fine in the UK, people taking up on societies offers is less well patronised.

its far easier to make a success out of yourself if you come from a reasonably affluent background...as you yourself have (inadvertently) proved.

I don't actually see it as being any more difficult, I don't think my position proved anything. I started from scratch, I got the same chances at qualifications anyone else did until I became an adult, from there I tracked down further chances and opportunities for myself, I tracked down multiple part time jobs to pay for stuff. I don't see how that was any different from anyone else, other than in mind-set and effort. My parents position, when looked at in this light, gave me nothing more over a less well off family (and we were in no way "well off") than a good work ethic and a comfy house, which didn't exactly come free - as I said, my parents worked multiple jobs to keep food on the table when I was a sprog. Sure, all kids should get education to a level for free but beyond that life is what you make of it. If you parents are not capable of providing for you then they need to step up and provide a bare minimum of care, or expect to have you removed. They chose to have kids, they need to be sure they can provide for them for life. In the case where they were working and end up out of work outside their own doing, sure they need help and finance for some time - I'm all for that, benefits far outweigh the damage of a family destitute, but that needs to be kept in check and for there to be some reason for a person to get back into work ASAP. And don't give me the balls about lack of jobs, I've first hand experience that shows that even in the most deprived areas of Glasgow there's jobs to be had by anyone with a good worth ethic. Not great pay, but enough to live on just fine.

As I say, I don't subscribe to any specific ideology but I do believe the far left (and right) views are nonsense.

The only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it's ok to sit back and do bugger all

Wow, that's quite a bold statement.

So you don't believe that drug addiction, abuse, poor quality schooling, social deprivation, mental health problems, disabilities etc have [i]any[/i] impact at all on peoples' ability to get on in life? And you think if people don't succeed it's all the fault of hand-wringing lefties?

Really?

That's the only point i was trying to stress here - i.e. as I said, social mobility is fine in the UK, people taking up on societies offers is less well patronised.

What are you basing it that statement on exactly? Social mobility is significantly worse than in most other developed countries, as I said earlier, and people from privileged backgrounds are still far, far more likely to get into positions of money and power. Where is your evidence that it's 'fine'?

My parents position, when looked at in this light, gave me nothing more over a less well off family (and we were in no way "well off") than a good work ethic and a comfy house

I can't honestly believe you are downplaying the importance of those things. 🙄

Many of the kids I have worked with come from incredibly chaotic/abusive/negative home backgrounds would kill to have supportive parents and a 'comfy house'.

So you don't believe that drug addiction, abuse, poor quality schooling, social deprivation, mental health problems, disabilities etc have any impact at all on peoples' ability to get on in life? And you think if people don't succeed it's all the fault of hand-wringing lefties?

The [b]only[/b] thing holding people back are the people telling them that it's ok to sit back and do bugger all, people like you.

What else does this mean?

So are they scrum because they are tory, tory because they are scum or is it just coincidence and there is scum all round?

Cillit Bang is good with scum apparently - or is it semtex bang? I never can remember

So anyone from a deprived background who is addicted to drugs, abused, has poor quality schooling (this might actually be quite important), socially deprived, have mental health problems, disabilities etc, should be labelled as such, told they don't have a future and should really know their places and consequently not make the effort because the mere idea of doing well for oneself is pure theory?
really?

Nope - we should be realistic and honest about the challenges these people face and help and support them to make something of their lives. Instead of ignoring their problems and blaming them for being lazy and ****less as the reason why they're poor.

Improving aspiration is obviously desirable - pretending they can all be CEOs or Alan Sugar or even MPs/cabinet members isn't realistic or helpful though.

coffeeking thinking he is totally 'self-made' despite coming from a supportive family background is a classic example of the way myths get created/perpetuated.

Nope - we should be realistic and honest about the challenges these people face and help and support them to make something of their lives.

Instead of ignoring their problems and blaming them for being lazy and ****less as the reason why they're poor.

Enough of your tory rhetoric, young man!

That's not Tory rhetoric - where in the Tory rhetoric is the bit about helping and supporting them? That's just nanny-state leftist molly-coddling surely. Survival of the fittest is the Tory way.

The only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it's ok to sit back and do bugger all, people like you.

Perhaps we should do a Norman Tebbit and tell them to get on their bikes. Then they could get to the places where the jobs are, you know places like the south east with the high property prices, particularly around schools performing well.

Why does everything have to be extreme in this place?

Well its a reaction to your extreme view that "the only thing holding people back are the people telling them that it's ok to sit back and do bugger all, people like you", kind of jibe.

To believe that simply telling people "you're on your own, now get on with it" in this day and age and expect those less fortunate than ourselves to dig themselves out of a hole without providing the foundations on which they can achieve their potential...well we've been doing that in this country for a while now.

Instead of ignoring their problems and blaming them for being lazy and ****less as the reason why they're poor.

It costs less to do so. It's an individual wiping his hands clean of his responsibility to wider society. It's very tory.

That's not Tory rhetoric

Those Tories, they love you to think you have a chance to better yourself, but you only have to look at how they shouted "Gin & Tonic Steward" whenever Prescott stood up to speak in the House of Commons - proof that they don't really like it when someone does manage to drag himself up through the morass. Right wingers, they don't like it up 'em.

If you look at what I posted, I mean really look, you'll see that I want to encourage people from all backgrounds to succeed and stand on their own two feet, and that with the right support they can.

Doesn't seem like it to me - seems like you want to tell people that unless they strive incredibly hard to compete effectively against people who have massive advantages over them they are lazy failures.

with the right support they can.

But isn't supporting them just nanny-state molly-coddling encouraging dependency and ****lessness? And what about those that can't, even with the right support (which this government in particular seems to have absolutely no interest in giving)? **** em eh? Lazy scum.

Improving aspiration is obviously desirable - pretending they can all be CEOs or Alan Sugar or even MPs/cabinet members isn't realistic or helpful though.

Why would everyone want to aspire to that?

Surely a more realistic and potentially even more fulfilling aspiration would be to re-educate yourself, achieve a career you can be proud of, possibly purchase your own home & build a family you can be even more proud of, in an area you enjoy living in?

None of these things are beyond anyone should they truly desire them, the opportunities are available. Yes you will have to work hard, is that your problem?

If your heart only desires monetary riches then its unlikely your first or second POA will result in wealth, but if you set your mind to it and learn from your mistakes - and are willing to put in a ton of hard work, who's to say one of your ideas may not bear fruit?

Of course we can't all be millionaires, providing the economy doesnt go all Mugabe.
But we can all acheive, even the users, abused etc (even the rich/wealthy abused/users - they exist too)

If you look at what I posted, I mean really look, you'll see that I want to encourage people from all backgrounds to succeed and stand on their own two feet, and that with the right support they can.

There wasn't anything about "encouraging" and "support". You said :

[i]"Regarding having the ability to get off your arse and do something positive is within reach of everyone."[/i]

Which is pretty bog standard cheap and meaningless Tory rhetoric.

Now tell me that I'm a "condescending little twerp" and how you feel "insulted".

Oh dear 🙂

Which is pretty bog standard cheap and meaningless Tory rhetoric.

by that standard, blaming others is your rhetoric

Doesn't seem like it to me

Lazy scum.

"Regarding having the ability to get off your arse and do something positive is within reach of everyone."

by that standard, blaming others is your rhetoric

Oh it is, is it ? So where have I blamed "others" ?

Do tell me.

Surely a more realistic and potentially even more fulfilling aspiration would be to re-educate yourself, achieve a career you can be proud of, possibly purchase your own home & build a family you can be even more proud of, in an area you enjoy living in?

Yes ok.

None of these things are beyond anyone should they truly desire them, the opportunities are available. Yes you will have to work hard, is that your problem?

What you seem to fail to realise up in your ivory tower is how unattainable all that seems to many people - often with good reason. These kind of statements usually come from those who had a good start in life, were brought up with good values and aspirations, and who's parents valued working hard and achieving in life. Many people don't have that.

You do realise that there actually aren't enough jobs for everyone to have one - so how is this dream available to everyone exactly? Set up their own business? OK, can everyone do that - then there will be no-one unemployed right?

What you seem to fail to realise up in your ivory tower is how unattainable all that seems to many people - often with good reason.

You do realise that there actually aren't enough jobs for everyone to have one

Those Tories, they love you to think you have a chance to better yourself, but you only have to look at how they shouted "Gin & Tonic Steward" whenever Prescott stood up to speak in the House of Commons - proof that they don't really like it when someone does manage to drag himself up through the morass.

they do like it if you forget your roots and become greedy like them though
EDIT: for balance I assume we all accept that people will get beeter outcomes via effort but it is not true to suggest this aloone will equal success or that everyone succesful did actually work hard*

* i am happy to accept murdochs son worked hard and still does but I am sure he is where he is because he is Murdochs son rather than any personal skill/hard work other reason [ as recent events show] on his part.

And very often that good reasonm is that they are given the excuses for failing before they even try.

Right, so the problem is not that people find it hard to get on in life when they come from a deprived background, have problems with drugs/alcohol/abuse, have poor quality schooling, mental health problems, disabilities, parents that either don't care or actively discourage achievement, and live in an area of high unemployment/crime, it's that they've read the Guardian too often and it told them it's ok to be lazy. Hmmmm....

By the way, in my work I actually do encourage young people from deprived backgrounds to make something of themselves. I imagine given that you are obviously very passionate about this issue you do something similar right?

And grum closes in with the moral high ground pincer movement. 🙂