[Closed] This should stop the 'term time holiday' arguements

what a ****.

Im taking Stoner Jr out of school for 7 days at the end of summer term to catch the TdF as part of a month in France.

His headmistress completely supports it, in private, but cant advocate taking-out in public.

It's a load of crap. It's not the state's place to mandate attendance, only levels of education. Its the kind of crap that made me go freelance and out from the salaried world. Face time not equal to performance.

GRRRRRRR!!!!

Ill still take him out and see what sanction they think they can throw at us.

PS Stoner Jr is in reception year, age 5, and I plan on taking him out early this year, and if necc next, but after that probably less inclined.

Keep kids at school. Then they'll learn how to spell "arguments".

🙂

stoner how will that benefit a 5 year old>

Ach; I wouldn't listen; he also told me I was losing my pension and I was going to move to yearly contracts, he does this all the time. However you do realise that despite anything that is said,it is a legal requirement that a child attends school. Trying to suggest the TdF is educational is like suggesting they are carrying out a study of tidal patterns in Lanzarote out of high season.

He's learning French already, reading well and ahead of target enough to be able to give up term time. He will be getting a sense of wider geography and place, different culture and its all the more effective because it's immersive.

And he gets to see the Tdf. How cool is that?!?!? 😉

EDIT: and anyway, he';s my son and I dont have to justify how I choose to educate him. Its not Gove's place to do so, and obviously not STW either 😉

I'd be more inclined to support this if kids spent all their time in school learning.

The last week or so of the Summer term is usually spent watching videos and on trips out. So missing a few days of that won't harm.

Im taking Stoner Jr out of school for 7 days at the end of summer term to catch the TdF

I wish my Dad had done this. Please be my Dad Stoner.

I'm getting a bit tired of the education establishment dictating this, that and the other to me and then ****ing off on strike when they feel like it. You didn't seem worried about my childs education then did you.

I wonder how this will get enforced.

it is a legal requirement that a child attends school

Duckman, no, the legal requirement is for education, not school attendance.

Loads here
http://www.underhill.nildram.co.uk/law.htm

I don't suppose it'll make any difference whatsoever
people will just ignore Gove

I don't want noisy kids on holiday when I am, I've raised my kids now so I don't want anyone else's upsetting my R&R 😀

anyway - Gove?
There's something wrong with him, one look at him tells you that

If that's the case parents will simply take them out of school and say that the kids are ill. Pointless exercise. What difference is a week or so going to make to a kids education.

Please be my Dad Stoner.

If you can manage not to spread mud all over the inside of my campervan Matthew, then consider yourself adopted, and Stoner Jr will be put up for scientific research....

Farmers Choice - did you actually bother to read the text?

Who is doing the "dictating" in this circumstance? Who did the striking and against whom?

Seems fair to me tbh.

Having kids means having to accept that your life will change and you'll have to be less selfish in what [b][i]you[/i][/b] want to do.

I'm happy to let the schools educate my children and say when they want them to attend. It is especially important that children not miss school these days with the youth unemployment problem.

If you want to take your kids out of school to save money so you can go somewhere nice, then you have to accept the consequences.

Holiday destinations are less important to kids than adults, so you can go somewhere cheaper and still have a great family holiday.

consider yourself adopted

*skips round room. Books July off work*

It's the government who set the rules not the teachers FC. They as peed off with Gove as everyone else.

However there is plenty of evidence about the correlation about attendance and attainment. Parents who invest care and energy in their children's education might well not cause any damage but those who expect the schools to shoulder all the responsibility tend to cause disruption to learning patterns.

Seems fine to me, and perfectly common sense. Just inconvenient for some. It's not the ones who's parents have good plans for and will compensate for missing time that it's to protect, it's for the kids who'll get forgotten in a pool while the parents are off getting cheap beers all holiday who just want the cheapest possible trip to some minging tourist resort. Hopefully the intelligent parents will see the reasoning and the need to protect the kids who's parent's don't care.

Parents could simply say that they feared it may snow so decided to hold off chancing the dangerous conditions for a couple of weeks

Convert - yes, I did read the full Times article and I have aired an opinion. That's all really.

At present, head teachers have the discretion to approve two weeks of absence from school for each child, which is supposed to be for illness, bereavement or when children cannot get to school because of bad weather.

That seems to be a bit nonsensical. What if the child is ill for three weeks? Can the headmaster no authorise and illness of that length? Hmmmmm. You're not ill because you're not allowed to be. If only it worked for major illnesses.

Guess my kids will do without then as I can't always have the school holidays off and I do the holiday leave. Might be selfish of me wanting to take my kids on holiday rather do another week at school but there you go I like being selfish and spend time with my kids.

Farmers choice you do realise that the education establishment have known Gove is a complete ****in **** for some time dont you?
All part of his plan to make private education mkre attractive imo.

TBH - I think most head teachers refused any request outright anyway

More headline grabbing BS from Gove. If this actually happens it'll just encourage people to lie and the 'illness' stats will go through the roof...

Already been done by some ducation authorities..
Wanted to take my great neice to mayhem last year, would mean she
would miss 2 days so school, cost to her mother, £80 per day missed.

Stoner Jr is pencilled in for a serious bout of grazed knee come July....

Guess my kids will do without then as I can't always have the school holidays off and I do the holiday leave. Might be selfish of me wanting to take my kids on holiday rather do another week at school but there you go I like being selfish and spend time with my kids.

You can't do long weekends or take one of the 2 months in the summer off? What's your profession?

As far as I was concerned, as a kid, school was compulsory, holidays mid-term were not even on the table as an option, it just never crossed anyone's mind.

would miss 2 days so school, cost to her mother, £80 per day missed.

That's just so silly.

Im glad our head is so forward thinking.

They should stop the holiday companies doubling the prices in the school holidays, that'd be more sensible. It's the only reason I've ever taken my son out of school in term time.

Consequences? A number of excellent skiing holidays that we otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford. Some great memories. Lots of family time together in great locations doing things we enjoy. He left school having passed all his GCSE's and got a place in the college he wanted to.

They're consequences I can live with.

You can't do long weekends or take one of the 2 months in the summer off? What's your profession?

Dracs the local STW Vampire aka Drunk Taxi.

You new round here CK? 😉

Surely just go on holiday for a week and then send junior back to school with a 100% genuine sicknote?

Another reason to go private, maybe he'll get an award for 'Services to Industry' 😉

[i]TBH - I think most head teachers refused any request outright anyway [/i]

Ours didn't. I guess they look at how well the kid is doing in class, what they're like for attendance, whether the parents turn up for parents evening and are supportive, that sort of thing. If all boxes are ticked, have a nice time.

As AD says all this will do is encourage more normally law abiding people to break the rules. It won't make a jot of difference to those parents whose kids have truancy problems.

1 to 2 weeks per year out is not going to damage the education of most kids, sure 2 weeks out in an exam year may have a negative effect, a week out when they're seven won't make a jot of difference.

I do hope he's also going to play this the other way so the days lost through strikes and bad weather are made up or was missing these days not detrimental to the childrens education. Local primary school near me closed for an extra week as they were moving into a new school. No mention of that time being made up.

Headline grabbing ******** that totally fails to address the real problems.

They should stop the holiday companies doubling the prices in the school holidays, that'd be more sensible. It's the only reason I've ever taken my son out of school in term time.

Consequences? A number of excellent skiing holidays that we otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford. Some great memories. Lots of family time together in great locations doing things we enjoy. He left school having passed all his GCSE's and got a place in the college he wanted to.

They're consequences I can live with.

This is most likely the scenario for every parent on here. If they are worried about truancy then tackle that.

I'm all for giving kids a better sense of the wider world, but the fact remains that most parents (at least the ones which the chinless wonder that is Michael Gove seems to be targeting) take kids out of school to go on cheaper holidays. Admittedly I may have a chip on my shoulder, as it was always the wealthy kids' parents who took them out of school before the summer holidays. Otherwise they might have been forced to downgrade their hotel on the playa de las americas or whatever, whilst my parents couldn't afford to take us much further than the next county.(Yes still a little bitter 30 years on)
Having said that I would still find it incredibly hard to support anything that that patricular MP proposed. Start of another thread I suppose

You new round here CK?

I don't really see how such work would stop you having summer/school hols off, but I'm not in that field so what do I know.

To be fair, the teachers I know well enough to talk about work have complained that their heads moaned that they're sick of being asked to judge which kids are good enough to be taken out of school for holidays and having to present a two-tier approach, so I expect it'll be fairly well received in general.

Teachers must hate the expensive holidays as much as the rest of us.

How about having an inset week every now & then instead of occasional days ? (no, I have no idea what teachers actually do on these days, where they do it or with how many other colleagues)

Then parents can maybe take their kids away outside of the holiday peaks and teachers can choose either do their inset training on those days or else during one week of the holiday period and have the cheaper week off instead. Some schools could take these weeks before holidays, others after to stagger it all across the country

We've had the last week of summer term off for several years now while my 2 were at juniors. School was fine about it but if not, I'd expect a detailed plan of exactly what DVDs and "bring in your own toys" they'd be enjoying whilst at school 🙄

Oh, and Gove's a turd

As far as I was concerned, as a kid, school was compulsory, holidays mid-term were not even on the table as an option, it just never crossed anyone's mind.

indeed. I hardly missed a day of school ever for anything - even dentist was out of school time.

So when your child has missed something in school because you took them on holiday why should the teacher have to redo that with them disadvantaging the other kids? Or your kids doesn't get that bit.

Stoner - I am fairly sure attendance is mandatory not discretionary unless you are given permission

I don't really see how such work would stop you having summer/school hols off,

anything that is a 24/7/365 days service needs minimum numbers on duty. If most folk working there are parents then not everyone can get two weeks in school summer hols. Usually possible to give parents the priority in school hols time but not always. You can have roughly speaking 1/10th of the staff off at any one time. So you get 3 two week slots in the 6 weeks of the kids summer hols so only 1/3 of the staff can have two weeks during the hols. If half the staff are parents then someone don't get hols in school hols time

Another reason not to have kids!

How about having an inset week every now & then instead of occasional days ? (no, I have no idea what teachers actually do on these days, where they do it or with how many other colleagues)

Well, I was actually helping my brother with a job at a school a couple of years ago on what was a 'training day'
I've no idea either what they were doing, but they turned up about 10, had a couple of breaks and lunch
Come 2 o'clock, the car park resembled the starting grid at Le Mans as they all ran for their cars

TJ - Attendance is mandatory only if registered, there's no obligation to register, and TBH it's up to policy of the LEA.
The vast majority of cases that go to court get conditional discharge.

Id have my day in court if the LEA thought they wanted a piece of me. Im sure you can guess, Im not a huge fan of state intervention into the private life of citizens, no matter how "well intentioned" some may be to gather up those at the fringes.

There is indeed no requirement to send a child to school. Parents can educate them at home and, if this is done, no checks are made to ensure that minimum standards (or indeed any standards) of education are achieved.

However, if a child is registered to attend a school then Section 444 of the Education Act 1996 makes it an offence to fail to secure the regular attendance at that school.. The Act can be viewed here:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/ukpga_199 60056_en_27#pt6-ch2-pb1-l1g441

If the Local Education Authority (LEA) believes an offence under S444 has been committed they may issue either a fixed penalty notice or a summons to attend court. A fixed penalty notice need not be accepted and instead the parent can ask for a court hearing. The maximum fine if convicted in court is ?1,000.

So when your child has missed something in school because you took them on holiday why should the teacher have to redo that with them disadvantaging the other kids

Depends on their age TJ and time of year. Yep that's a valid argument if you're talking about a child working towards GCSEs, not particularly relevant for an 8 year old who's in the top of their class, at that age they don't just do things once.

Mind you another way of looking at it is

So when your child has missed something in school because you don't put them to bed on time, they are thick / lazy / struggling, why should the teacher have to redo that with them disadvantaging the other kids

In the grand scheme of things there's a lot about the education system in general and truancy issues in particular that need sorting before banning parents from term time holidays.

If they try and enforce this I think the whole system will grind to a halt.

Final point, not all parents take their kids on holiday to spend two weeks in a kids club whilst they get drunk. Some of us actually see the holiday destination and family time as a learning experience in it's own right.

In the grand scheme of things there's a lot about the education system in general and truancy issues in particular that need sorting before banning parents from term time holidays.

Final point, not all parents take their kids on holiday to spend two weeks in a kids club whilst they get drunk. Some of us actually see the holiday destination and family time as a learning experience in it's own right.

Well put, stumpy.

Drac - you're exempt from this.

Ours didn't. I guess they look at how well the kid is doing in class, what they're like for attendance, whether the parents turn up for parents evening and are supportive, that sort of thing. If all boxes are ticked, have a nice time.

This is exactly what happened to us, we even got a letter stating why we could take her out of school.

I guess ours will have to be home schooled for a week in January every year.

God knows what we will do about my brothers Friday wedding in September.

In '79 as a 12 yr old I had 7 weeks off to visit family and friends in Canada.

The headteacher thought this was a great idea and would be very educational (which it was).

I am all in favour of term time hols. The only kids disadvantaged by taking time out, are the kids who would be equally 'disadvantaged' staying in school.

Get a grip Tories!! Governance by sound bite!

We'll see how this goes then- we were of a mind to send out oldest to school after Easter, or possibly September, but if this goes ahead we might keep them both out of school for another year or two.

In mrs vinnyeh's line of work she doesn't get to pick and choose her holidays - she's largely restricted to taking time off at the end of a job, and we've found the advantages of being able to spend large chunks of time with, and educating, our children, while indulging their broader interests, far outweighs the paint-by-numbers education that schools seem to provide.

Some of us actually see the holiday destination and family time as a learning experience in it's own right.

This is true but going somewhere cheaper and possibly closer to home, in school holidays not term time, achieves the same end.

Pulled our son out of school for a couple of days to watch the mtb world cup at fort bill. Told the headmaster where we were going and he was all for it.

So stoner - are your children home educated then?

it is a lot cheaper for me to fly home ( france ) with the familly by going 1 day early or coming back late .

headteacher approves it , as it is part of their education to learn a second language .

nope. your point?
apart from the obvious one...

If you're registered to attend school you are obliged to attend school except for authorised absence (The bit that gove**** is thinking of getting rid of) unauthorised absence CAN lead to the LEA finding you. But given the inconsistency of below it's daft.

You do not have to notify the LEA that your child isnt to attend school and is going to be alternatively educated and then you can go off and do as you please within educational achievement targets.

Honestly, these politicians have a bl**dy nerve, dont they? I mean,

- we spend our lives teaching our kids that the only person that counts is themselves
- that authority is something that should be mocked at all times
- that your learn more spanish at magaluf airport than in class
- that the uni of life is THE place to learn real stuff

..then this. Blimey, they will never be ready for work at this rate. Where do these politicians think that our kids will learn that its ok to waltz out of work to go to the nearest costa, surf the net instead of working, go to the gym during work hours. If they dont get this right at school they will never be prepared to compete in a global labour force. Scummy politicians - makes you sick.

There are some dozy buggers here.
Why always assume that prices double in the holidays? How about realising that they just get cheaper when there is less demand. Perhaps some people should be at school with their kids.
I reckon its a great idea but it won't work. The penalties will be just like all the others in this screwed up country of ours, pointless. Now if the penalty for taking little Jimmy abroad for a week out of holiday term was removal of passports for 10 years people would think just like decnt fines ( lets say £1000 first time) for speeding etc would stop them.
Equally it would also mean that all those screaming little gits who spoil my holidays would be else where.

What a load of baw bags, politicians live in a bubble world...

I just like the end lyrics "f*ck you I won't do what you tell me"

eek bit hippy/anarchist of me.

Stoner - Member

nope. your point?

Cake and eat it?

Want your kids in school abide by the rules, want to not abide by the rules then home school them.

What are these holidays you all speak of...?? Been many a year since ive had one of those. Any time off I have gets eaten up with child care during school breaks.... Oh the luxury to have any time left to take off work during term.

abide by the rules

because government policy knows best, doesnt it?

Those who do will defend their right to do it, they just rely on the rest of the parents to suck it up so that the class can run, if all parents did the same it's easy to see 20% absentism if you add the usual "real" sickness

is it viable to run a coherent education with that level of absentism? I doubt it

"painting by numbers" education, might be your school ours seems to be quire innovative

In the grand scheme of things there's a lot about the education system in general and truancy issues in particular that need sorting before banning parents from term time holidays

tell me what's the difference between; can't be bothered to take the kid to school all the posh parents can do it for their expensive holiday's, we want an extra star on our hotel, and Tarquin loves skiing ,

it's a mute point anyway, you'll keep on doing just as BMX X5 owners always park in disabled/ parent and child spots 😉

Stoner - Member

"abide by the rules"

because government policy knows best, doesnt it?

No - by putting your kid in school you agree to abide by the rules - and there are legal sanctions for you if you don't. If you don't want to abide by the rules then home school them so you don't have to.

TJ. How many children do you have? Presumably you are approaching this thread from a position of experience?

Cheers GreatApe that would be nice if we were.

Coffeeking I work as a Paramedic there's only so many of us can be off at anyone time, my wife works for the NHS too so trying to sync our holidays is very hard. I don't get many weekends off, like all emergency services I even have to work Xmas. So yeah it's not as easy as you may believe.

Usual attitudes and BS on this thread, but you all know better as parents than teachers do when it comes to education of course. I especially liked Stumpyjon's bit about doing something about truancy...where is it they go/stay when they skive school? But that is of course,our fault and something schools need to do something about.You do realise taking the kids on holiday during term time IS truancy? And the bit about in-service days, that was good as well;I mean wrong, but lets not let whatever your brother's mate claims he saw be called as rubbish. Ill-informed in my experience,but good. And Stoner,as your child is registered with the school you have a requirement to send them.It's like this,I don't think anybody below senior management is bothered,especially with a child this young,but please don't dress it up as an educational trip.You are going on holiday,and want to take your child.
It is a pity the weather hasn't been bad, as we could have had the usual thread about how the school is closed,ignoring the fact it is closed because parents sue the local authority.

Usual attitudes and BS on this thread, but you all know better as parents than teachers do when it comes to education of course. I especially liked Stumpyjon's bit about doing something about truancy...where is it they go/stay when they skive school? But that is of course,our fault and something schools need to do something about.You do realise taking the kids on holiday during term time IS truancy? And the bit about in-service days, that was good as well;I mean wrong, but lets not let whatever your brother's mate claims he saw be called as rubbish. Ill-informed in my experience,but good. And Stoner,as your child is registered with the school you have a requirement to send them.It's like this,I don't think anybody below senior management is bothered,especially with a child this young,but please don't dress it up as an educational trip.You are going on holiday,and want to take your child.
It is a pity the weather hasn't been bad, as we could have had the usual thread about how the school is closed,ignoring the fact it is closed because parents sue the local authority.

You must have been off skiving the day they did paragraphs and spacing duckman

It'll be interesting to se the results of the first case of parents v state! I've started a thread on this subject before and as I said back then, they're my children and if I wish to take them out of school I will do so!!

I don't understand this talk of holidays costing more in school holiday periods. Could someone explain?
As a child of 2 teachers school holiday holidays never seemed to be a problem.

wrightyson - Member

It'll be interesting to se the results of the first case of parents v state! I've started a thread on this subject before and as I said back then, they're my children and if I wish to take them out of school I will do so!!

Home school them then. Its not menu based system where you can pick and choose. Once registered and at school yo have a legal obligationto send them

I don't understand this talk of holidays costing more in school holiday periods. Could someone explain?

As someone who doesn't have kids that need taking on holiday any more, I always choose school holiday times for my holidays because - as you alluded to - they don't cost any more than similar holidays in term time 🙄

Yeah I'l explain, your parents were off during the school holidays some people's parents aren't.

Does that make sense? For me it's not about the extra cost during peak times it's that I get a limited choice if when I can have my holidays.

It is a pity the weather hasn't been bad, as we could have had the usual thread about how the school is closed,ignoring the fact it is closed because parents sue the local authority.

Has this ever happened though? Or is it based on this fear that they may get sued.

Why home school them, I'm quite happy to admit we couldn't do that?? I don't ever recall signing a document legally binding my children to attend school on every day it's open! I would also never expect the teacher to help them out after their return from holiday. However I'd also never take them out for two weeks solid, that I think is irresponsible, but the odd two/three day stint I can't see as being a problem. Like I see it'll be interesting to see who wins the first case brought to court!

TJ you can be a sacntimonious arse sometimes.

The world doesnt begin and end with the state as Im sure youd love it to. 100% mandatory attendance is not a reasonable consideration for the social contract that state schooling certainly deserves. But a commitment to a full and broad education of your child is a reasonable consideration. And that does not necessarily need mandatory full attendance on pain of the law.

Like all good lefties you believe that you can legislate the citizenry to achieve target outcomes. That is baloney. It insults the individual.

...

Stoner -and yo can be a gross hypocrite 🙄 if you don't want to abide by the rules then opt out. You cannot pick and choose. Those rules are there to protect the others as well. 100% mandatory attendance is the legal requirement. Picking and choosing which bits of the law you want to obey?

There's no right or wrong answer to this.

100% agree with stoner about state intervention etc and others about there being bigger issues surrounding educational performance.

However...it's not just about the individual child. I was speaking with teacher friend of mine a while back who tells me it's common to have multiple kids parents wanting time off at certain points in the year. Once you have more than a couple off at the same time it has implications for curriculum delivery and can lead to those who have attended being stalled whilst those with a suntan catch up.

Not black and white

teamhurtmore - Member

Honestly, these politicians have a bl**dy nerve, dont they? I mean,

- we spend our lives teaching our kids that the only person that counts is themselves
- that authority is something that should be mocked at all times
- that your learn more spanish at magaluf airport than in class
- that the uni of life is THE place to learn real stuff

..then this. Blimey, they will never be ready for work at this rate. Where do these politicians think that our kids will learn that its ok to waltz out of work to go to the nearest costa, surf the net instead of working, go to the gym during work hours. If they dont get this right at school they will never be prepared to compete in a global labour force. Scummy politicians - makes you sick.

actually TJ, until gove piped up with his proposal it was 100% mandatory attendance with discretionary max 10 days pa absence. Which is not 100% mandatory attendance. HTH.

And people pick and choose which laws to obey every day, especially in respect to daft ones that are created to capture one undesirable social problem but end up gathering up perfectly reasonable behaviour. The courts and those that apply the law recognise this every day too, and generally only sanction against the intended undesirable activity - hence conditional discharge for most failure to attend cases that arent actually cases of chronic truancy and failure to educate. At least the judiciary is a bit more intelligent in interpretation than you obviously are.

Why quote that TJ? it's bollocks