This should stop the 'term time holiday' arguements

mmmmmm. It says “I’m going to do what I like, Jack.”

It depends on how you are frame it to your children then doesnt it.

Its interesting that THM, McBoo and I usually find ourselves on the same side of the argument, but here not so. Can I ask whether you both have children?

Yessir. Three.

This is the glum, cheerless Presbyterian (retired), part of my character showing it’s face rather than my more usual libertarian free love, gay friendly sunny disposition.

Its possible we have the same argument mixed up. I take Jr out of school early to get to see the TdF as part of a month-long road trip. It’s not a money thing – in fact I dont think it would cost a great deal more to go in holiday time only. Maybe an extra hundred quid or so on the ferry.

I see it as an opportunity to teach him new stuff as part of an extended trip, and of course to see the TdF. Do you think he might be rather interested in it?

Stoner – yes, it is interesting isn’t it and especially to have TJ re-quoting me, and for us to be in broad agreement!!

Yes, I have two kids at school and while I sympathise with the arguments and accept that some trips may be (?) educational, I am a bit of a stick-in-the-mud when it comes to this kind of discipline issue. Would never have occurred when I was a child, but part and parcel of modern selfish society IMO (of course.). I think it sets poor precedents and examples for kids hence my tongue-in-cheek original post.

But then again I am a traditionalist on these kind of things as my kids would point out – I even like them to look smart in their sports kit. Look smart, play smart etc. And I moan that oranges are no longer supplied at half-time!!!!! 😉 So what do I know??

But I think the article in the Telegraph is a far more sensible solution than fining parents (which to be honest is rather silly). Much better to make the end/start of term indispensable for all. Perhaps I will also write that into my new business plan for a brand new type of school!!

Arrgggh – what a load of guff 😕

And the Tories badge themselves as the champions of “small Government”, less regulation, less red tape??

Only when said red tape is related to profit margins, it seems. This has a whiff of Stalinisim to it (especially the poster who suggested removal of passpoerts!!!) Do we really need the State to be involved in such minor and trivial issues?

If your kid is doing badly – performance, attendance, behaviour – then by all means there should be measures to put in place to make sure that improvements can be realised. Really has very little to do with holidays…

I must be more of a hippy than I thought! 🙂

for a time I was considering delaying sending Stoners Jr to school for a few years to be able to do more extended travelling with them. They’re bright boys, Jr#1 is the only one in his class of 27 to have to get his reading books from the class above. I like the Scandinavian model of not starting formal education until they are 7. There’s a greater dependency on the parent to start the education process off admittedly.

I agree with discipline, I dont agree with dogma. TJ is dogma personified: no scope for common sense, discretion, the individuality of each man’s position.

hmmm, maybe mcboo and thm are just…..old…. 😉

It’s hardly a shooting offence, and I can understand why a parent would do it, I’d naturally always want parents to decide what they want for their kids and the government keeps their nose out.

….but you know.

Slightly mixed views on this.

I teach but almost exclusively GCSE and A level groups. At that age group missing students can be a royal pain in the arse. I’ve frequently ditched lesson plans because a critical mass of students were missing so introducing new topics would be futile. Of course students are going to be missing for lots of other legitimate reasons but anything to reduce it has to be a good thing. Parents here seem to be talking about this (quite understandably) from their and their child’s perspective and can’t see the harm in their child missing specific days but those in charge of schools have to take a larger view of what the continuous absence of a few students does to the overall progress of teaching groups. There’s a chicken and egg aspect to this too – if a school knows its going to be missing a chunk of kids at the end of term it’ll put on the crappy weeks of not very productive work which then persuades more parents to flaunt the rules and so it continues.

But…. generic rules from above are rarely great and our mate Gove is a past master of this. All leave from school and all parents are not the same. Some leave from school is incredibly worthy, some is a waste of time educationally and socially. Some parents are very conscientious about helping their child catch up and some are not. I’ve had kids come back from time away (I always give them the work they would have been doing in class to take away with them) with reams of notes and a parental report telling me how they got on but I’ve also had kids whose parents told them to put the work in the bin and others who rang me up and asked me what I was going to do to help their child catch up because they took them away against the school’s wishes.

Some kids have the most amazing experiences in school time too. One student I taught was given time away from school (in an exam year) to race a 35ft yacht across the Atlantic with just his mum. He came back (with reams of work done onboard) and gave the best assembly I’ve ever seen (better than all the staff’s efforts) on his experience; caught up on all the work and went on to be head boy. I’ve also supported another child’s term time holiday request which was granted because Dad was in the Army serving in Afghanistan and this was his only opportunity to spend time with his child (mum had died some time before) between time away on duty and give his parents time without her to look after for him. It would have been rude not to in that situation and Gove could go swivel if the same situation came up again.

Also… and I’ll get flamed for this by my junior school colleagues… there is a difference between a reception class kid and an A level one in terms of the consequences of missing a week – mainly due to the more independent nature of the learning at that young age and how they are progressing at very different speeds already. “Topics” for the littleuns are really just frameworks to hang core skills development to.

Yep, the Scandis do some interesting things and there is no doubt in my mind that parents can and should have a more active role in their kids education. The Headmaster at my son’s school makes it very clear at the start of their academic careers that education is a partnership between schools, parents and pupils. So if we decide to unilaterally break our part of this relationship, then we have only ourselves to blame.

It is also ironic that people see fit to ridicule Gove for his looks. Imagine if he was not a WASP man. But then again I am being hypocritical as I occasionally refer to Ed Milliband as Wallace – hence glass houses and stones, as I said earlier this morning!! 😉

Slightly mixed views on this…But…. generic rules from above are rarely great and our mate Gove is a past master of this. All leave from school and all parents are not the same. Some leave from school is incredibly worthy, some is a waste of time educationally and socially. Some parents are very conscientious about helping their child catch up and some are not…

Also… and I’ll get flamed for this by my junior school colleagues… there is a difference between a reception class kid and an A level one in terms of the consequences of missing a week – mainly due to the more independent nature of the learning at that age and how they are progressing at very different speeds already.

Agree +1

Hey, stoner – careful, I’m not THAT old!!! 😉

So if we decide to unilaterally break our part of this relationship, then we have only ourselves to blame.

Its only a case of “blame” if the results are deleterious.

And if it has a beneficial effect then am I allowed to “take the credit”?

Is he flossing there?

Stoner, I shall be sending you an invoice for a new keyboard shortly.

😆

I’d naturally always want parents to decide what they want for their kids

Because every parent always do what’s the absolute best for their kids don’t they 🙄

Unfortunately there are many parents who don’t take proper responsibility for their kids upbringing, and seem to think it’s school’s job to teach basics like toilet training, counting, holding a pencil, getting dressed etc.

Hmmm, was debating whether to offer an opinion but have decided I’m rather frightened of the bullying. 😕

I’m rather frightened of the bullying.

Im sure Gove can take it CG…. 😉

Stoner

I agree with discipline, I dont agree with dogma. TJ is dogma personified: no scope for common sense, discretion, the individuality of each man’s position.

Rubbish – I have shown that to be wrong many times. I believe in the right to do as you wish so long as it does not disadvantage another

I merely point out the massive hypocrisy and inconsistencies in your position. You want the convenience of sending your children to school when its convenient for you but you also want the ability to take them out for no good reason.

If you want “the individuality of each man’s position”. then take them out of school for good and home school them. But you won’t – you want your cake and to eat it. So you will break the social compact with schools and the law if needed disadvantaging your kids and prepared to disadvantage others simply for your convenience. You have now claimed its not about cost – well they why not take them away in the school holidays?

and what is wrong about blending formal education with periods out of school? You are being dogmatic. Education is not “School” or “home school”, it is learning, training, experience, exposure and development. At its best its done with through different routes at different times.

Im really not surprised you are blind to this though.

Stoner – Member

and what is wrong about blending formal education with periods out of school? You miss out on school work, you demonstrate to your kids a lack of respect for authority and you damage others school work by disrupting their education – as outlined by a number of different folk

Nor am I surprised the only thing you can see is your wish to have your holidays when you want and beggar anything else

Selfish and hypocritical.

You have been given several arguments against doing what you do by a variety of people from setting a bad example to the damage it does to everyones education. Not a single counter to this from you just the only thing that matters is Stoners right to do as Stoner wants.

FFS…..

setting a bad example to the damage it does to everyones education

unmitigated hogawsh. as per.

Oh heck – CG, you missed you chance!! 😉

C’mon guys – keep it impersonal and just agree to disagree here and move on. There will be no winners on these points!!!

Simple, if you can’t afford a holiday in holiday time, go somewhere cheaper.

Lol at Stoner!

OK, here goes. Background info is my oldest was the guinea pig year for major reforms, ie SATS etc. All through his school life he’s been tested and tested and tested.

We occasionally took both out of school for ski-ing holidays, couldn’t have afforded to do it otherwise.

BUT I totally understand where TJ is coming from. Nevertheless the curriculum these days is so hell-bent on academia that children can be missing out on so much hence some holidays can be an enriching experience.

This ongoing tinkering with the education system coupled with Daily Wail soundbites has led to disenchantment, lack of respect etc. Yes, parents need to do their bit rather than thinking it’s the school’s job to bring up their offspring.

My son, who’s now 27, is really quite scathing about his schooling even though he did get to Uni.

The day I take any child raising guidance from a bitter old childless socialist is the day Ive given up free will, free thought and the will to live.

Stoner – Member

setting a bad example to the damage it does to everyones education

unmitigated hogawsh. as per.

Really? – not what the education professionals say. Still – its easier to call it unmitigated hogwash than to have think about what you are doing

a bitter old childless socialist

who would that be? is that intended to be perjorativee? Try to hit the right target.

I am not bitter, I am not ossified, I am not a socialist and socialist is not an insult.

Still cannot come up with anything coherent – just rather pathetic insults.

Stoner – you are totally out of order with that comment, pure nastiness.

CG – there is no reason why stoners kids could not have “an enriching experience” in the school holidays.

Unlike Drac who has a good reason for sometimes doing this Stoners is all about his convenience and cost

Banhammer coming my way *ducks out of arguement*

TJ – you can’t have different rules for different professions, with all due respect to drac.

I seem to remember there was talk of altering the school terms, anyone know what happened?

Of course holiday companies display arrogance towards their customers but … the tide is slowly turning by there being less customers.

CG – thanks for that. It seems all our kids are like Guinea Pigs – enduring constant change and largely unnecessary reforms and changes. So much has become mechanistic learning and exam technique rather than proper education. Bit like the NHS and endless reforms (oh no, did i really just say that!!!)

Stoner – if you’re going to be so unpleasant…..

Is the TdF trip really for your child’s benefit or for yours? Think I know the answer.

Cinnamon Girl – Nottingham city are moving to a five term year, raises more problems than it solves though with the rest of the county (and some of the acadamies) on the 3 term/6 half term system

I don’t like CG anymore.

I don’t expect preferential treatment, all parents should have the right to take their kids out of school but only a limited amount of time.

Convert is right though, taking them out around Exam time is a bad idea my two are still in primary school.

Drac the difference I see is having “good cause” so a one off special, the unavailability of holidays outwith term time, that sort of thing. Not for convenience or cost

I agree TJ, oh and this year I have holidays in August and we’ve chosen to take the kids away for the first holiday abroad then although I could go earlier. Going to cost a fortune.

Simple, if you can’t afford a holiday in holiday time, go somewhere cheaper.

I think the whole “if you can’t afford it, go cheaper/don’t buy it” mentality went out of the window decades ago …

Fast-forward 15 years and this generation of kids’ll have utterly pathetic CV’s but really impressive photo album’s on FaceBook of all their precious little childhood holidays

😉

Seriously though,

Drac the difference I see is having “good cause” so a one off special, the unavailability of holidays outwith term time, that sort of thing. Not for convenience or cost

I tend to agree with TJ on this subject.

I don’t treat the current 10 days as extra holiday entitlement.
Unlike quite a few parents I know.

Just ask my wife – we had quite a tiff when I wouldn’t let our son miss 3 days of school just for convenience sake. 🙂

It’s a mentality I’ve learned from my own upbringing I guess – school was always treated as properly important by my parents, only ever missed due to sickness as far as I can remember.

My wife on the other hand grew up in Brazil. From what I gather, the prevailing attitude to schooling is pretty lax. Kids regularly miss school at the drop of a hat, and the authorities don’t bat an eyelid. Apparently.

Could this ‘take your holidays when you like’ approach not be extended to teachers?

I’ve been married to a teacher for 17 years and we’ve never had a cheap holiday.

she’s had parents shouting at her when the school’s shut for one day due to an Inset, goodness knows what they’d do if she decided to take a week off in term time to watch the TdF with me.