The STW Ski & Snowboard thread. The 2015-2016 season

yep , the teacher is seriously injured but life not in danger so should be able to explain .

Awful to read about all those caught in that avalanche.

FunkyDunc: Henry (of Henry’s Avalanche Talks) said exactly the same thing about the Avoriaz slide today. Big dump on no real base with little time to consolidate.

Avalanche deaths. We saw this today and I was surprised a school group would be on a closed run, my wife (French) says it seems a good bet they where a class, quite probably a school or Lyon area ski race team. As Graham says they ski on Wednesday afternoons. EDIT french tv (bfmtv) has report online saying the slope has been closed all season

Friends out in Peisey-V posted some lovely pictures today as did @stevo from White Room.

It was glorious at Cairngorm today. Sunshine, no wind and ride(almost)anywhere powder snow across the hill.

Ok. I am (as is my wife) a mediocre snowboarder – mainly cruising red pistes with our feet on the ground. I’d love to be better but I don’t have the time to do more than a week away each year. For the same reason I’m not going to be doing split boarding to the middle of nowhere – much as that appeals.

However yesterday’s events have focused the mind – two on piste (ok one piste st least was closed) avalanches in mainstream French resorts.

I do love playing down the edges of the piste (fresh, soft, powdery if possible is what I really enjoy) and our elder son is skiing the clean parallels on black and off piste lessons this year – he’s nine and will be doing things that scare me as a father in a year or two.

So the question is should I be thinking about getting some knowledge about when just not to bother doing that little bit of interesting snow between two pistes, or in and out of that gully? And should I be thinking about how I get my son the knowledge of what is safe(ish) and what isn’t before his skill gets to a level where he can go places I can’t?

Am I overreacting, or just sensibly seeking knowledge that I hope never to need to use?

And what books, videos, courses are worth doing? I’m thinking more of a when not to bother type thing rather than a how to go out off piste and be able to survive an avalanche thing (not that there is any guarantee with the latter).

IGM, Stick with it, if you aren’t going more than a few meters of piste, you should be okay. If you start to get more adventurous and going further afield, go with a guide and get some training.
Everyone starts off skiing / boarding off piste by skiing what you describe. Keep is simple, don’t stray too far, don’t go off on your own, keep an eye on the conditions and the weather. Ask lots of questions and discuss with the other people you ski/board with.
I would look up Henry’s Avalanche Talk, he does a tour in the Autumn in the UK.
Some good stuff in his talks.
Most of my understanding about where and when to ski or not ski has come from skiing with better more experienced people than me and from being with guides and asking LOTS of questions. I am not an expert though.

I do love playing down the edges of the piste

The thing is you can’t (or rather shouldn’t) do this if the piste is closed. If you stick to the sides of open, in bound pistes you are very unlikely to come unstuck. If you have any intentions of ducking ropes, ignoring signs or heading off into the back country you definitely need to get some training and some kit.

For me, unless you are very experienced or you’ve spent the whole season in one location so you know the snow conditions inside out you probably want a guide anyway. (But maybe that’s me being over cautious.)

Someone more experienced will be along, if they haven’t already by the time I write this but… (Edit: they have 😉 )

I had a similar awakening just a couple of seasons ago as we started to venture more and more into “slackcountry” off-piste and I decided I should really have a better idea what I was getting myself into.

The short answer is that there is no quick “should I shouldn’t I” guide, but an awareness of things like terrain traps, avi reports, wind loading, signs of slide activity etc will help you avoid some stupid mistakes and will might also mean you appreciate the mountain a bit more and the folk who work to keep you safe.

For my part I read these books:

“Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain” is the one most people recommended – if nothing else it is a very good eye-opener to how much you don’t know (and how much even the leading professionals don’t know) as well as how much effort you need to put in to learn these things. It’s 300+ pages of pretty dense reading though, goes into a LOT of detail and is really aimed at someone who does this regularly (e.g. it recommends examining the snow every day through a season, which is kinda hard if you only go for a week once a year).

“Avalanche Essentials” is a summarised version of the first and is a lot shorter but obviously lacks some of the depth.

The Circerone “Avalanche!” book was about as close as I saw to a ready-reckoner rule-of-thumb “Should I go?” book. It is very short but has a summary of very basic risk assessment and what to do.

I also joined Henry’s Avalanche Talks[/url] and actually found some good YouTube videos too.

The most important thing to realise is that none of this means shit!

Personally I don’t think knowledge can ever be a bad thing by itself. It is how you use it that matters. BUT if you read this stuff and decide you know everything now and duck the fence into the backcountry then you are worse off than before. However if you read it and you are honest with yourself then you know you have barely scratched the surface. You’ve gained some interesting book knowledge but zero experience. You’ll know if you want to take it further.

For me my next step was to buy a shovel, probe and Avalung backpack (I’m still just borrowing or renting a beacon for now, but that’s on the list). And then spend time practising with them all.

Ortovox do a free booklet that’s quite good for some basic info too. I’m doing a week’s ski touring course which obviously includes stuff about avalanche safety but even that will just be scratching the surface really.

If you stick to the sides of open, in bound pistes you are very unlikely to come unstuck. If you have any intentions of ducking ropes, ignoring signs or heading off into the back country you definitely need to get some training and some kit.

Agreed.
There is a location element though. Each resort can be different.

For example, in Serre Che there’s lots of unpisted in bounds stuff, but if you try between pistes like Col du Vent and Yret things might get interesting.

Thanks guys.

Roughly what I thought so far.

Sounds like what I need is actually a “how to pick an experienced and sensible guide with a good empathy for his clients abilities” guide.

In addition to the essentials stuff above.

Generally I learn these sorts of things fairly quickly and I work in an environment that’s all about risk assessment and safety, but you only have to get it wrong once and I’ve already been told off by a snowboard instructor for turning too hard off piste and causing the snow to give way under me – just under the board, not triggering anything, but on a different day I guess that’s a bad thing, right?

@igm, the recent events should act to focus your mind, the mountains can bite. Playing around the edge of a piste (red or blue) in fresh snow is how we all got started “off-piste” one turn in the powder one back on the piste. Generally this is very safe. The photo I posted above is from a closed piste in Peisey this week, closed I imagine as it hadn’t been pisted rather than a danger? The Les 2A piste was shut as it was under a steep slope which could avalanche as we’ve seen. The last fatality I am aware of in Verbier was on a pretty flat link road/piste but inwas under a steep slope. It was shut but its a verybuseful link so someone was tempted, the slope above slipped and they where killed. The width of the avalanche on the road was just 20m but that was enough.

Skiing or boarding off-piste is one of the great joys of the sport. Get some lessons and/or a group guide and enjoy.

If you stick to the sides of open, in bound pistes you are very unlikely to come unstuck.

Although that is mostly true and is definitely what most people do to start with, Henry is fond of using this photo to illustrate that “next to a piste” is still “off piste”:

(The people rubbernecking are on the piste)

Here’s another one of the sort little piste-side gully that people decide to have a go at:

(Source[/url])

Luckily the snow wasn’t too deep there. You can see the loaded snow near the top.

Ortovox do a free booklet that’s quite good for some basic info too.

Free online stuff too: http://www.ortovox.com/safety-academy-lab/avalanche-basics

@igm, get working on your technique a bit and just book something, you don’t have to able to board steep black pistes to go split boarding, not everything is death defying. Steeper stuff in deep snow can be easier to ski/board than a piste as the snow help slow you / control your speed. I’ve used many companies over the years, Piste to Powder in St Anton and TDM in Val d’Isere and European Snowsport in Verbier are three of my favourites. All do 1/2 day, 1 day, 3 day type intro to off-piste. I mention these as you can browse the websites. The hardest part of off-piste is if you do one holiday a year you might not get fresh snow and then you just don’t get to practice.

As an aside have at look at @stevo’s White Room Chalet, Ste Foy is a great resort for you/family as lots of little options off piste and one or two 1/2 day trips you could do to get a feel for off-piste boarding. Not a resort of miles and miles of pistes but when the snow is good it’s a gold mine and the powder doesn’t get skied out in 1/2 a day by 1000’s of skiers. It would be a good place to spread your wings a bit I think. 30 mins in car to Les Arcs/Tignes for a change of scenery.

I’ve already been told off by a snowboard instructor for turning too hard off piste and causing the snow to give way under me – just under the board, not triggering anything, but on a different day I guess that’s a bad thing, right?

Hard to know exactly the circumstance but turning and causing a crack/slab slide isn’t that unusual and is often what starts slides. You often see ski videos of skiers seeing if the snow is stable by stamping or sliding at the top of a chute or a steeper slope. The important thing IMO is there should NOT be people stop below you on that sort of slope as it could avalanche down on them. I am not sure what “turning too hard” means, depending upon conditions us skiers can do jump turns which are quite aggressive in terms of how they push the snow down.

Next daft question. No trees in any of the shots so far – are you generally (promise not to sue if I die from duff advice here), generally safe around / amongst trees (woods that is, not a lonesome pine)?

V sad news and there were several incidents across the Alps yesterday

jambas – I know that area in the photo and skied it in similar conditions a couple of years ago. Tendency to assume that it is low risk, but not the case sadly

I shuddered when I heard this story and it reminded my of two Xmas’ ago when we skied the closed Jerusalem piste in the 3V here times in row. Great fun but stupid 😳

In the 80s we used to ski off piste with Mark Warner guides the whole time. Crazy to look back on. Having said that I have also been in some very hairy positions with professional guides.

I was meant to be skiing this week but had to cancel for work reasons. On Tuesday I was feeling bad about the powder reports but felt nervous about the Avalanche risk. Sad premonition.

Stay safe folks

Jambalaya – Stevo’s place is already bookmarked for future years. Our nine year old would be fine there now, but our 5-on-Saturday younger one needs his rest in the afternoon still so me are a little limited. Currently using Ski Famille and the PdS area at Easter. Last year fresh snow was available but it was pretty wet. Other years have been better.
2017 half term is already booked (do I get a prize for earliest booking) after which our youngest will have 3 years of lessons plus Xscape behind him and at the age of 7 we might take him somewhere more like Stevo has. His older brother would probably kill for it now.

Jambas, the guided trip I referred to was v interesting as he noted that I was too aggressive in my jump turns early in the day. We spent some time practicing very, very soft jump turns

“Comme un papillon THM, Comme UN papillon” – try not to break the snow (??) ten very soft turns, stop, review, ten more.

It was a great lesson – people are often far too aggressive in powder. When we are in a very dodgy couloir later the advice was particularly important. Never skied so softly in my life – “Doucement THM, doucement!”

As I understand it (not an expert as explained above) trees are a mixed blessing.

Dense trees can form good anchor points, especially if they are evergreens with their branches frozen into the slab, so they can lower avi risk, BUT they also present dangers: obviously you don’t want to get tossed into trees by an avalanche, that’s a bad day, but you can also get stuck (and die!) in tree wells, and that’s also a bad day (tree wells are responsible for 20% of ski deaths!)

http://www.deepsnowsafety.org/

Don’t mention tree wells!!!!

re you generally (promise not to sue if I die from duff advice here), generally safe around / amongst trees (woods that is, not a lonesome pine)?

Skiing/Riding in the trees can be marginally safer than open areas, but apparently the trees actually need to be pretty close for it to be ‘safe’ – as they are a potential ‘terrain trap’ and a slide in the trees is more likely to cause injury or death from trauma

Don’t mention tree wells!!!!

Tree well!

(Do not watch if claustrophobic)

THM – that sounds about right in fact I think butterflies may have been mentioned.

He was encouraging me (I think)!to turn earlier and on a more open radius, to keep the speed more constant rather than running straightish then turning to slow. Big wide open ‘S’s. As little drive in the turns as would get me round. Graceful, flowing, elegant.

I’m a 44 year old 16st former rugby player. Ever seen a 16st butterfly? Thought not.

My (rather more delicately built) wife was doing far better than me.

if you aren’t going more than a few meters of piste, you should be okay.

This is a tricky one to answer.
A few seasons ago nbt and I were on a chair lift in France (sorry can’t remember resort now) and we watched in horror as French children,who were in race practise, all with instructors and experienced skiers themselves, got caught in an avalanche just a few metres from the side of the piste.
Some of the children managed to ski to the side, others were tossed around like rag dolls.
2 ended up in a bad way in hospital. We heard later in the week one was in a coma. Even though help arrived within minutes it was sobering to see.

Stay safe out there everyone.

I was reading dat and tinking, I used to go dancing at the crossroads by Tree Wells – there was a legend about tree farmers who owned the land but couldn’t decide on where to site a well. So they just built tree.

So, thanks, that’s a new one for me. I have to confess, I would not relish the claustrophobia of getting caught somewhere like that. 😯

Not too far apart then igm!!

Even in simple basic off piste, people try too hard and are too aggressive. OP skiing is much, much easier IMO than on piste as you have do to so little. People make it far too complicated

Skis and body pointing down hill from the outset (fall line), do not start in traverse position

Arms high and wide

Very gentle and slow up and down motion

Err, that’s it. Enjoy…..lovely smooth Ss right down the fall line 😉

In Canada the general rule of thumb is that if the trees are spaced far enough apart for good skiing then it can avalanche and when it does you’re now being carried through a place with hundreds of baseball bats.

Having said that open areas have more opportunities for the snow to slab up due to wind and so in general alpine areas are more exposed than treeline and below.

Grahams second photo is also a good example of a terrain trap when a small slide has then accumulated in one spot and you end up buried even deeper.

However there really aren’t any rules of thumb and avalanche forecasting is a life long job – which is why guides exist.

GrahamS book recommendations are spot on. And if for some reason you find Bruce Temper to be light and engaging (I didn’t find it too bad to be honest) than you can always try The Avalanche Handbook

exactly 1 year ago today I was snowboarding in some REALLY tight trees in Japan. got to be confident in your turning but damn, was that fun.

http://www.france24.com/en/20160114-teacher-held-over-french-alps-avalanche-tragedy?dlvrit=65413

Teacher in Custody over avalanche incident

Got caught in plenty of tree wells, though thankfully not too deep and i could pull my way out, still REALLY hard work. One year in Soll we (I) read a path so bad that we had to belay each other out (proper boy scout me with Para cord), took 2 hours to reach the piste.

A point perhaps worth emphasising:

North America – ‘tree runs’/glades etc within the ski area boundary will have been assessed by Ski Patrol

Europe – any non-pisted area with trees will most definitely be ‘off-piste’ therefore you should only be skiing/riding there if you know what you are doing and/or are riding with people who do e.g. appropriately qualified instructor/guide

..took 2 hours to reach the piste.

Impressive!

Four years ago we were just getting into off-piste stuff and we were exploring the “slackcountry” in Schladming. We stupidly went to play in the woods, alongside the piste, which was great fun for a bit.

Then we got flat stuck in a little gully and had to hike out. Despite the fact we could see the piste from the trees is still took us the best part of an hour to dig ourselves out and escape through the baw-deep snow.

Quite an eyeopener.

I caught some of that little adventure on this tedious badly-edited video (skip to 1:40) :

Maccy D’s not too keen on those toe turns is he?! 😆

Aye, that was his first time off-piste. He wasn’t keen.

He likes freshly-bashed icy cordoruoy pistes.
I think he might be a closet skier. 😕

(I cringe at my erm… “technique” in that video too. I’d like to say I’ve got a little better since!)

haha @ baw-deep! Looks like fun GrahamS! 🙂

‘Course you have. 🙂

Impressive!

board off, carve out a shelf, use a board to step on whilst hte other tethered, use the other board to “dig in” and pull. repeat to fade – the piste was only about 400 meters away. Still being Austria the bar was then not far away so got pissed and did the last 2km down to the resort with torches and randomly spaced lights! I love Austria!

It’s always amusing looking back at videos and thinking “crikey – was I really that bad? Thank goodness I’ve improved in the past few years!”

… and then you see a more recent video and realise that the improvements have been at best, marginal! 🙂

…still … it’s just about the best fun there is trying! 🙂

It’s always amusing looking back at videos and thinking “crikey – was I really that bad? Thank goodness I’ve improved in the past few years!”

… and then you see a more recent video and realise that the improvements have been at best, marginal!

QFT.

…still … it’s just about the best fun there is trying!

Amen to that brother.