The Annual Running thread – beginners/ultras/whatever

Oh – I should have posted a couple of weeks ago…

After slogging round the Illuminator in calf-deep mud for 15 miles, I was persuaded to enter the Dava Way 50km Ultra. Now that’s about 50% further than any run I’ve done this year and the only thing even near to that was the Fort William marathon 5 years ago.

Anyway, deciding to just risk failure, I aimed to get along before the cut-off (8 hours) but hopefully in 7h. The day went better than expected and I finished in 5h49m – astonishing myself and winning in my age category (60-69). I felt really quite fresh at the end and could likely have carried on for another 10km or so without issue.

Not sure I’ll be looking to repeat that any time soon as I want to get back to more riding next year and I find the amount of run training interferes with that.

Wish I had known you were running at the Dava, would have suggested you say hello at the finish. I do the finish line medic at this, among quite a few others.

The day went better than expected and I finished in 5h49m – astonishing myself and winning in my age category (60-69)

many congrats! that’s awesome! well done!

Well done @scotroutes

Brilliant effort @scotroutes, that’s awesome work.

Like Scotroutes above, I perhaps should have posted this a couple of weeks ago as I’ve had a really good autumn of running.

First up was the stunning Marathon Eriyi (formally Snowdonia Marathon) which I completed in 3:20, a full 20 minutes faster than last year. The ballot opens for next year on the 1st December, I’d urge you all to have a look, it’s a magnificent event.

And next was my end of season goal at Derby 10 miler where I ran a very respectable 59:37. The main motivation for this was the old guy at my running club saying “If you can run 10 miles in under an hour that makes you a proper decent runner”. So now I am a Proper Decent Runner. Lovely.

After running about 3 times since the 50km ultra I did in July, I’ve just signed up for the 100km version for next July.

Task 1 – find my running shoes

@ lunge How on earth do you train for something like Snowdonia Marathon? That course profile looks brutal!

Did my first run in over 6 months last night…..forgot how hard it is!

Only did 2 miles and aim is just to build up to 10k again, my days of marathon or even half marathon are way behind me!

crossed, find some big hills and run up and down them 🙂
Bentham marathon has similar elevation gain. I just included the two big climbs on some of my sunday runs.
(Ditto for the 3 peaks which I ran a while back, which has about 50% more elevation gain in a similar distance.)
I’m up to 15 miles or so now for my longer runs, nothing compared to the ultra-milers but building up to marathon training over the winter.

@crossed, same as any other marathon but with more hills!
For me that was lots of long, slow runs and making sure there we some hills in every one. I also did quite a few hills reps and made sure my normal week day runs had some elevation too.
You’re never going to replicate it exactly, so you do as much as you can.

The Snowdonia marathon looks epic.  3:20 is a fab time on that course.  Great running!  That one is deffinitely on the list.

I’ve managed to get into Dublin marathon through the ballot and I’m hoping for a Berlin place.

Just need to get my Hernia fixed now.  Anybody run with a Hernia before?

Did my first 10k of the year yesterday. Not quite in the same league as scotroutes but I’m buzzing !

Anyone able to share a bit of insight into zone calculations please?

I’ve been doing an hour or so a week z2 (based on Garmin max HR %), but when I compared to a mate of similar ability (using Garmin lactate threshold calcs) my z2 runs were about 2 min/km slower. I’m guessing the zones aren’t an exact science so will differ depending on where you get your info.

According to Garmin I have a max HR of 194 (potentially a bit high, haven’t tested). 35 years old

Garmin says z2 is 60-69% so max 134 bpm, but then it also refers to Z3 (79% / 153) as aerobic
MAFs method says 145 bpm is max aerobic HR
runbundle.com says Z2 is up to 81% of MHR so 158 bpm.
A Runners World article calls z2 70-80%

Any experts in the area?

If you can talk a bit it’s probably about right. So long as you are running properly, and not shuffling along like a granny you can’t really run too slowly for your aerobic work.

All these numbers are rough guidance at best, especially as you don’t even know your max. Try running a bit faster if you want but it should be a pace you are comfortable at even at the end of your hour. I don’t even think about how fast or hard I’m going, if I think about anything it’s my running form and cadence.

Been building up my distance for the Sheffield round run in Jan. Did 17km about 10 days ago and two issues appeared. Heel pain and outside of knee pain. No running until last night for a midweek 8km and both issues returned worse. Both new on me and not sure if I can do anything about either of them to keep training and do the event. 

@mark88 you could write a whole book on HR Zone calculations just by quoting everything that’s been written about them on STW already. I don’t profess to know much, but I did the LTHR test on my Fenix 6 and, using that, my Z2 moved up by about 10 BPM. It had previously been based just on max HR and felt ridiculously low – I’d blow out the top of it walking quickly up a gradual incline. 

Garmin’s Z2 pace is definitely “shuffling along like a granny”. It’s roughly 3min/km slower than my 10km pace and about as slow as I can possibly run.

I’ll try using the MAFs method for a bit, and do a max HR or LTHR test when I’m not full of this winter cold.

You could also try intervals.icu it’s free (with a request to subscribe) and gives lots of analysis – certainly more than I understand – but will also feedback LTHR results based on your ongoing performance. I just like it because it gives a fairly simple fitness/fatigue graph that I can understand! It feeds off your Garmin and/or Strava data. 

3 mins slower than 10k pace sounds extremely slow to me. My steady runs are about 1 min/km or so slower than race pace on the flat, though this comes out more like 1:30 overall due to hills.

Using someone’s algorithm for zones makes about as much sense as using 220-age for your max. It may be reasonably close for the majority and if you have literally nothing else to go on then it’s a useful starting point, but it can easily be significantly wrong, so modify according to your own experience.

@davros it’s always going to be tricky getting a diagnosis for anything over the internet so my advice would to see if you can see a local physiotherapist or sports therapist that are familiar with running injuries.

I’m still on the very slow path to mending from a knee injury, also pain on the outside, mine was diagnosed as iliotibial band friction, but that’s not to say yours is, could be tendonitis, or something to do with your gait or your shoes plus many other things.

@davros – if you’re in Sheff then try Charlie Stone at Fit4 physio at Hallamshire tennis club. She’s a runner herself and husband is a Dark Peak runner and recently did a tidy Bob Graham round. She’s been keeping me going for ages and has a pragmatic approach to running with injuries. ps. Outside knee pain – my money is on IT band…

ive just started trail running a couple of weeks ago. For two reasons – 1. The ground is depressingly wet, so biking is a bit shite. And 2. I’ve been watching Jeff Pelletier run ultras on YouTube and got inspired.

I tend to run about 4-5k, about 3 times a week. I’ve done max of 8k, and ran 6k today. Probably 200-300m of climbing each time. I go really, really slow.  My aim is to try to figure out if I can run 10k and have enough left in the tank, so that perhaps I can figure out if a trail half-marathon would be realistically possible. In my heart, I’d love to complete an alpine marathon, like the Chamonix one (although I probably couldn’t gain an entry anyway). But I think that’s somewhere way in the distance for now. No idea if that would be realistic, or just a pipedream.

No idea if that would be realistic, or just a pipedream.

No reason not to believe you can do it. I only really started running a few years ago and, even then, just played at it a bit. It was only this year that I really took it seriously and that’s because there was one event I wanted to do. In some ways I wish I’d started much earlier in life. Getting serious about it in your 60’s means it’s hard work developing. However, I guess I don’t have decades of physical “punishment” behind me so maybe it’s not all bad.

My other half has been running much more then me recently, my running has been cut back due to cycle commuting. She’s been doing obstacle course running events like tough mudder and nuclear races. Today she did the grim challenge in Aldershot. 8 miles with lots of icey “puddles” that were close to her middle (half way up thighs to be exact). Think I’ll just stick to my semi regular 3-4 mile tame cross country runs.

I’ve been watching Jeff Pelletier run ultras on YouTube and got inspired.

I met Jeff in 2011, before he had a YouTube channel and possibly before he ran his first marathon. He is a super cheerful and helpful bloke, and helped get me into running at the time. I did the Vancouver marathon in 2012 after training with him all winter. He’s a big deal on YouTube now (although it helps that video marketing is his day job!) and did a decent Bob Graham this summer as well.

On the subject of inspiration I watched the Spine documentary on Amazon prime the other week, which has made me think about how to get an 80+ miler done, which would allow me to enter….

FYI I had my first run in studded shoes this week – the Hoka Speedgoats with tungsten(?) studs. I don’t know how fequently I’ll need them but they made a massive difference to how I was able to run across icy puddles etc.

Im looking to replace my Hoka Rocket X road shoes. Whats an equivalent? I quite like the Rocket X but believe there is better out there. Thanks

Quick PSA before I do my returns. I’ve got some running kit from the Wiggle mega sale that I’ll offer here for what I paid for it:

DHB Aeron FLT run short XL £5
DHB Run Tech Tights 2.0 XXL £10
DHB Aeron FLT Windproof Jacket XL £15

I’ve also got some bits from an Asics clearance sale:
Ventilate Sleeveless top – black Large £5
Vest – black Large £5 (no tags but is brand new)
Running tights – black Large £10

Drop me a message if any is of interest.

I watched the Jeff Pelletier when he was up in Keswick and tried fell racing and then BGR. Nice chap!

I appreciate it was partly sponsored content but his approach to nutrition on the BGR was super impressive. And he did pretty well too considering he was on holiday (went sightseeing in London the next day IIRC)

@edward2000, there’s a Rocket X 2, but it’s a completely different shoe. Very much a racer where I found the first version to be best as a fast trainer.

If it’s a fast trainer you want then look at the Saucony Endorphin Speed 3 or Puma Deviate Nitro 2.

If it’s a race shoe, the Rocket X 2 gets great reviews, or look at the Nike Vaporfly 2 or adidas Adios Pro 3.

I’ve just started, never been a runner before, tried a few times in my teens and early 20s but hated it and it hurt. My aim is to do a 5k, then a 10k and eventually a half marathon. Looked at the numerous beginners options, couch to 5k, None2Run etc in the end I decided I don’t really wanna be carrying anything other than my keys, watch and maybe some poobags when bringing the dog with me so opted for the Garmin Coach 5k.

Reason I’ve decided to get into it is it seems to be very easy to fit in and accessible especially during the winter, than it is getting out on the bike, the whole getting the bike out of the shed and unlocked, checking pressures, filling the bottle up, lubing the chain and getting all my clobber on just to get shy of an hour in during my lunch break, then having to hose the bike off and put it away and lock it up again has been a faff.
Plus, I want to ne be able to run! I see people doing the park runs, out on the hills or trails and everyone just seems super happy and buzzing to be out, a few experiences riding lately bumping into and chatting to others has made me feel like biking is becoming a bit cliquey near me, that and all the judgey teens have made be feel a bit uncomfortable riding when it’s busy up my local, the vibe seems to be very judgey and competitive, very different lately to what it was and is the opposite of what I appear to see from the outside-in from the running community.

So 3 birds one stone, get a bit of winter excercise in during a lunch break, excercise the dog and give myself a goal to hit which will help me get fitter.

Had my first one today after a benchmark run at the weekend which I found tough but today was 15 minutes, 4 minutes walking 1 minute jogging x2 followed by a 5 min cooldown, was still halfway from home and had energy in the bank so decided to do 1 min jogging 2 mins walking on the way back home, surprised how much I enjoyed myself actually. Took a route that was mostly off road as well which felt easier on the joints. Looking forward to the next one already and already been researching the local park run and running groups hopefully it’s something I can stick with long term and will help me shift weight and make biking more enjoyable/easier as a result of my legs having to haul less weight up the hills. Then when summer rolls around go back to my early morning or late evening rides up the local when all the youngsters haven’t crawled out of bed yet or have already gone home for tea, which is when I bump into the familiar faces I know who are supportive and give advice even if you case a jump instead of laughing! Maybe I’ve just got a hurt ego lol!

Good on you. Agree with you about running v cycling in the winter, that’s pretty much why I switched too.

Keeping it enjoyable is key, you’ll probably not keep it up for long if it becomes a chore. A lot of people find a local parkrun to be a good part of the weekly routine.

Great Caey Neistat run vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IiTdSnmS7E

A bit like scotroutes above I’ve entered my first Ultra (Kintyre 50 k) at the fairly ridiculous age of 67. My longest run up to the beginning of this was a forestry track 21 km slow amble a couple of years ago. I’d never been a runner until recently but I can now do (for my age) reasonable 5 and 10k times.

I’ve been building mileage up slowly and my longest run is now up to 35 km (slowly) with 10 weeks to go.

The problem I’m hitting is that the long slow runs wipe me out and l struggle to recover to do more later in the week. I totalled 7 hours on feet and 58 km with 1000m of climbing last week. I think that was bit much at this stage and I’ve got an easier week planned for this week. Yesterday’s hilly 17 km left me thinking that I was just not making much progress at all. I could really do with a week being two days longer 😉

I try to do some gentle biking between the runs partly as recovery and as a bit of cross training but my legs are too tired to do much.

I’m still playing with eating and drinking strategy which has always been a weak point with biking and now with running.

So, keep on pushing and just accept that between now and May I’m going to feel constantly knackered but hope I’m getting stronger, or do I ease off and give myself more recovery time and hope I can do the distance on the day? I have no aspirations on speed, just want to finish.

I’m out this season. Combination of colds, covid, niggly knee meant I’ve missed far too much training time to have a serious go at Mancs marathon and I can’t be bothered jogging round at the back for the sake of a medal and t-shirt having raced it hard several 5 or 6 times already.

Knee is slightly unhappy even with easy 5k jogs so I’ll be on the bike much more than usual this spring. May be no bad thing in the long run, I’m old enough that it’s probably sensible to limit my mileage. Feels like a slight bruise on the joint, it’s very minor really but been dragging on for around good 6-8 weeks now.

No advice on ultras, sorry. Marathon has always been my limit, plenty far enough for me! I’ve always kept my long runs under 3h (if only just) which still takes some recovery but it doesn’t destroy me.

I’m no expert, but a 35km training run seems very long, especially 10 weeks out. Based on what I’ve read, I’d suggest concentrating on more consistent mileage with a few shorter easy runs through the week and the long run being around the 20km mark.

I’ve based my training plan on those on the inov8 blog, tailored to fit my requirements.

I too am out for the season – currently considering whether its even worth renewing my running club subs or just switch to a ‘social member’ only.

I have a knee injury that I’m fairly certain is a re-emergence of a torn meniscus from an MTB crash about 12 years ago. It was lying dormant since then but an epic fell route in the lakes has reawoken it. Just waiting for an MRI scan

sigh

I’m similar to thecaptain – don’t want to merely enter a races for the ‘day out’ or to make up the numbers. I need to feel competitive (even if its just in my own head) which means a hard bloc of training etc

I quite frequently do 35+km training runs, you certainly can do them regularly if you’ve trained up to it. That said, I don’t think that’s the case here. So I’d probably throttle back, and keep them under 30k. And if you can do that, you can certainly make it round the ultra in 10 weeks time.

The problem I’m hitting is that the long slow runs wipe me out and l struggle to recover to do more later in the week.

Make sure you’re getting enough to eat both during and after the run. Don’t make the typical mistake of trying to combine training and weightloss – you need enough fuel to build the muscles and recover after.

Thanks, sounds like good advice. Not trying to lose weight, I’ve not got that much to spare, but probably not eating enough during runs. I have added a bit of extra protein to my diet before and after runs though.
I’ll knock back the long runs a bit at least for now and I’ll have a peek at the inov8 blog.