The Annual Running thread – beginners/ultras/whatever

@alanf thanks for that – what’s the sizing like on those? Any comment to make about the leg length?

I’m a small in these and at 5’8″ I have no issue with the leg length or overall fit. Elasticated and with a zip they are easy to get on off and aren’t particularly ‘flappy’ in the lower leg.

@lunge those Harriers look good but in a medium are only quoted as 31″ inside leg. If I went up to a large they’d only be 32″. Probably going to be a bit short for me I suspect.

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/men-s-trail-running-waterproof-rain-trousers-black/_/R-p-121366

Wondering if these may be worth a punt. Stated leg length is longer than the Inov8 and OMM ones. Always a bit wary about the quality of the fabric on cheaper stuff like this though.

Those Decathlon ones look very good. I hardly ever wear them and only put the on if its really bad. I would avoid paying a lot for them as they are always uncomfortable to wear and i sweat like mad, plus they wear at the crotch. Even the best fabrics never allow enough perspiration to escape when you are active, better than non breathable but all are boil in bag.

If it’s Decathlon it’s worth trying on in the shop – I’m a big fan of Decathlon but their sizing is weird.

Now on week 4 of C25K, which was a step up (for me) in running duration. Jog 3 mins, walk 90secs, jog 5 mins, walk 2.5mins, jog 3mins, walk 1.5mins then jog 5mims.

Over the weekend I had a sore back when I woke up and the back end of week 3 was pretty bad, felt posture and back were wrong. It was a run pretty much as soon as I woke up, save for a Nike 5mins warm up session. The week four was after tea, back was fine (presumably walked up and loosened during the day) and took a steady pace across the entire session of just under 10mins/mile. It actually felt really good and was a tad frustrated when the walk bit prompted, The thought did creep into my mind, “sod it, just run 5k”. But, need to build this to avoid injury.

And bought some Nike Pegasus running shoes at the weekend which are way comfier that my worn out ACG trail shoes.

Well then, an interesting turn up for next years plans, I have just won the draw for my running clubs place at London.
So plans of an spring ultra are out of the window, and we’re back on the roads trying to go fast again.

@fingerbang

Apologies for getting this written, but there’s quite a bit to say and have been dipping in to writing this on and off.

I’ve done the BGR twice now, first time was in 2017 with my running club that organised all the support, then solo in 2021 as a personal challenge (as that’s how I’d always wanted to do it) and planned during the depths of a lock-down.

My first attempt involved training kicking off in the autumn / winter beforehand, averaging about 50 miles a week with a long run on the weekend of about 20 miles. Over that time I took on some long races like the Marsden to Edale Trigger (January), then the High Peak Marathon (winter, through the night, 40 miles). As spring moved on I started my reccie’s, which were normally 2 legs together depending on time. I knew a lot of the area quite well from doing plenty of the long races, but it was on those days that I did 2 legs together that I began to doubt whether I really had it in me, both from a fitness point of view, and also whether my body would cope with things like blisters, toenails and chafing. I learned alot about pacing (I generally went off too fast), food, navigation and kit. People in my club assured me I’d be fine but I still didn’t think so. In the meantime I poured over the Bob Wightman site endlessly memorising information, maps and so on, refining kit and food choices etc. About 4 weeks before my attempt (summer solstice) I did the Old County Tops fell race which is always a good test of how your legs are doing, and that gave me some reassurance, and I was hitting the prescribed 60 miles / 10,000ft climbing a week that people advise you to aim for. On the day it all went smoothly, on each leg I had 2 supporters to carry food and kit, although it turns out we’d messed the bag swap up at the end of leg 2 and I completed the rest of it without waterproofs, thankfully the weather was good. I put road shoes on for the tarmac on leg 5. As it was a club effort the first half was done as one group (6 contenders, 2 supporters for each contender), then we split off during leg 3. I completed it in a comfortable 21:45 or thereabouts.

Second, solo attempt I didn’t do any reccie’s, I just got all my hill work in doing days out on Kinder scout going up and down its various slopes, including a night time Kinder Killer to get my eye in for the night time. These are routes that seek out as much hill climbing as possible by going round Kinder Scout. I thought alot about how to do the round and decided to do it as an unsupported round, partly for the challenge, but also because I never feel 100% confident about food / water stashes still being where I left them – a stress I could do without. Also it would require some kit drops and even road support would require more organisation than just going out and doing it. I decided to use poles this time and found that they did help, but would recommend that you do some upper body / tricep exercises to help support as they did get tired. Again, the main point of reccie’s is about hardening up mentally and physically, and getting food and kit sorted. I had a few ‘Big’ days out round Kinder Scout getting in the ascent / descent, then a 30 mile run from home once a week the others. I pencilled in 2 weekends to do the attempt, I think either side of the solstice and decided to go for it on the first date that had a decent weather forecast. You’ll get to a point (hopefully) a month or so before your attmept where you’ll feel ready.I ran the Ennerdale horseshoe the week before my scehduled attempt, which TBH was a bad idea as the pace was much higher and my food was all wrong, but it didn’t affect me adversely.

On the day I drove straight up (after picking up my daughter from school!) with the aim of setting off at 6:45pm, which I managed despite heacy traffic and a bit of a rushed start. Off I set with none of the normal entourage, just my wife and daughter to see me off, and then I went, walking quickly up Skiddaw, no-one I passed having much of an idea of what I was up to. Coming down Hall’s Fell Ridge slightly ahead of schedule I was thinking ‘I’m actually doing this’ and was mindful of not making a bad step, and trying to conserve speed. Thankfully it was a good evening and the night leg over Helvellyn was windy, which meant I put a waterproof on, but other than that just kept plugging away and making sure I was eating. Leg 3 started fine, however I had a moment on the way up to High Raise (I go High Raise > Sergeant Man) I was filling water up in one of the becks and I had an overwhelming feeling of detachment – probably sleep deprivation, low blood sugar, cold perhaps? but I engaged mind over matter and plodded on up. It was a bit chilly at High raise so put on a top and had a chat with the sheep, and again, plodded on.
The hike over Rossett Pike is always a bit of a low point, I think its because it seems to take an incredibly long time to travel such a short distance, but I sat and had some food at the tp and was on schedule. The rest of the leg went fine, and I dropped in to the Wasdale car park at about 8:30pm, in amongst all the stag do’s, 3 peaks challengers and other weekend warriors, the only clue to my endeavour was my dirty calves. Here I treated myself to a clean pair of socks, and filled up my water bottles in the campsite (i had 3 soft-flasks, 2 in the race vest and one in my hand – I filled them all up whenever I got the opportunity). The climb out of Wasdale has a reputation for being a killer, but I’ve always found it quite good, you gain a lot of height quickly, there’s worse to come later! It was misty up by Steeple but that went without incident, and carried on to Kirk Fell, the ascent of that being a drag. Remember, walk the uphills, jog the flats, run(?) the downhills. At the foot of Great Gable I shovelled in a load of Tangfastics and plodded on, having got that out of the way I knew that it was 80% in the bag. I overtook 2 supported efforts on the way down to Honister, one of whom’s road support had asked me if they’d seen their party, who had taken the wrong line off Grey Knotts and were taking some considerable time. AT the top of Hindscarth I’d gotten talking to a woman about what I was up to and my schedule, and that I’d been enjoying it but had 7 minutes in my favour on my schedule so made my excuses and headed off.
AFter descending Robinson I got to the Tarmac and I knew that it was 45 minutes from there to the Moot Hall, which put me something like 50 minutes ahead of schedule! The schedule calculator on the Bob Wightman website obviosuly needs careful inputting to work properly, but certainly better to have the time difference in my favour. Nevertheless this pushed me on to keep pushing even though I had time in hand. I bumped in to the aforementioned road support crew who realised that I was doing a round, on my own, adn in a decent time. Jogging the last stretch of arrow straight path between Portinscale and Kewsick I almost cried when I realised I was going to make it, however I had to do a victory lap around the busy market square as they had a one way system due to Covid.

It was very busy around Moot Hall, so planning your finish time for after the traders have left is probably no bad thing.

The next day, as with the previous attempt, my quads were absolutely shot, as were my toenails and I could barely walk.

I’m sure I’ve posted an account of my solo attempt in this thread in June 2021, but can’t find it at the moment.

@Pieface
That’s a great write up of your solo effort. Fair play to you and i found that quite inspiring for some of the efforts i’m thinking of (not a BGR)

Not even faintly a BGR, but…

…Thanks to everyone who commented on my minor dilemma a few weeks back. I finally (after weeks of being double booked) got out for a run with a local club – Abbey Runners – last night.

Walked up to their meeting place and fortuitously met one of their committee members as I approached with the cautious ” ‘scuse me, are you with the running club?“. Got introduced to a couple of people and singled out during their announcements as a newcomer, which was lovely if slightly embarrassing. Wasn’t entirely sure which group to run with since, as my running is mainly orienteering, I’ve not got much of an idea about my pace. Joined one of their slower-paced groups and it actually worked out pretty perfect – people chatted on the easier sections and went quiet on the hills, which is all good!

Enjoyed it enough that I should be back there next week, and despite my trepidation it should help get some mojo and some fitness back over the winter, hopefully.

Completed my first race today- the Sussex Downs half marathon.
Only signed up on Thursday evening (whilst under the influence of beer!) so little in the way of race prep!
The views were stunning and the course was great. Thoroughly enjoyed it and hope to run some more half’s, although possibly not as hilly as this one.
Came 20th in my age group 👍

Come and do the Steyning Stinger in March.

That Stinger looks like a great course, although the hills do look steep!
Plenty of time to get used to running hills as the race is in March… thanks for suggesting this event, I will sign up 1st December.

@pieface

Great BGR account thanks. I’ve always wondered how solo unsupported works or how is it even possible with bgr. That’s mightily impressive, and doing it for a second time!

We ‘ll see how it goes but I feel it’s gotta be done

How did your tour de pendle go? I was in in 3:16. Bit disappointed as I was running at sub 3 hour pace until about halfway and then faded badly with the last 3 climbs. The last climb was horrible. I felt great until I took the steep descent down into Ogden really fast and overtook some fast guys immediately after that i felt spent as traversed Ogden up to the short steep climb just after the Clough

My long runs have been going well but I don’t think there’s any substitute for regular racing. I’ve only done 6 fell races this year but yeah surprised how quickly my legs went. More climbing training is needed

Anyone seen any Black Friday deals around on running kit? Need some new winter gear i think

Salomon cyber week email just landed, 30% off lots of running/hiking kit. Sportsshoess.com seems plenty, also Nike 25%. You could spend a fortune, I’m trying to delete the emails without looking!

Anyone seen any Black Friday deals around on running kit? Need some new winter gear i think

Few bits on Start Fitness, EXTRA10 gets you another 10% off.
I’ve picked up a new pair of XC spikes for £26, along with a few others bits.

Ah yes, it’s windy, wet and bleak outside and that means the season is upon us. Time to get the mud covered spikes out, the short pair of shorts you own and go for a blast.
Welcome to Cross Country season everyone, the most hideous yet oddly enjoyable time of the year.

Ha very true @lunge
I much prefer running in winter

Anyone use refillable energy gels?
If so which do you use?
I normally have high5 gels but I’m getting fed up of the waste it generates. Annoyingly their refill is their berry flavour that I don’t like

I’ve always wondered how solo unsupported works or how is it even possible with bgr

You don’t get your name on the list if you do it solo. Charlie Ramsay is a bit more flexible, you just tell him you’ve done it and Charlie puts your name on the list.

I saw these when in Decathlon, so ordered a pair. Will see how they are, I’m a bit dubious, but a proper a brgain if they fit! £39

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/men-s-trail-running-shoes-tr2/_/R-p-312120?mc=8569906&c=BLACK

I also much prefer running in the winter. Currently still on the roads, slowly building up the time. But will mix in some trails if these fit.

I also just bought myself some New Balance 1080v12. Not sure about them yet tbh, they are definitley comfy, but I don’t love the higher stack. I’m a size 12.5 (or 13), but these are big old shoes!

Well done @pieface great effort!

Anyone use refillable energy gels?

I’ve used the Active Root ones (their energy drinks are great, minimal ingredients, nice ginger flavour)

Waste Free Energy Gels

They work well for a day out. A bit faffy for a race and you have to carry the empty gel / squeezy bottle. It’s important to get the water to powder ratio right. First time i ended up with squeezy juice!

Definitely a positive step in terms of waste, if you used gels a lot.

Any opinions on Asics shoes? I see there are some keen prices at the outlet shop at the moment and my Nike Pegasus are getting worn out. I’m a newby but been running three times a week for the last year and a half. The Novablast2 sound interesting and get good reviews but some say they are only suitable for experienced runners, whatever that means. Are the Contend7 too cheap to actually be any good? Mostly for street running and a bit of park.

https://outlet.asics.com/gb/en-gb/mens-shoes/c/ao10200000/

New shoes today. Set of parkclaws.

just over 50 miles in now on the parkclaws and I’m really not that impressed. I thought the grip might get better with time but I’ve never had a set of running shoes feel quite so ‘skaty’. on wet tarmac I can feel them slip as I’m running in a straight line, they’ve nearly had me on my arse a few times.

The laces seem to have come undone more than any other laces I’ve ever had.

comfy though…

@nickjb

I use pretty much only use Asics and Salomon shoes. I have fairly narrow feet and they are good for me. If you have very wide feet then avoid or look at the wide versions.
I really like Asics – I have a pair of Novablast 2’s and Gel Trabuco 9’s on the go. The trabuco’s were my weapon of choice for my trail ultra marathon and were comfy throughout.
The nova’s took a little getting used to, but i really like them now when i want a bit more cushion when road running.
I’ve probably had 10+ pairs of asics over the years and never had a pair fall apart on me unlike some expensive adidas and nikes

Can anyone talk marathon training programmes to me?
I want to go after a sub-3 marathon next year and so I suspect I need to follow some kind of programme. I’d like a completely custom one but the cost is prohibitive so it’ll likely be an off the shelf job. Happy to pay a small amount for said plan, but ideally not loads.
Saw the Ben Parkes plans for £6 which seems well reviewed, but am very open to ideas.

My marathon training usually consists of running a bit further, running a bit faster and running up more hills. I have a totally non scientific approach to training so I don’t really have a plan (other than the above). Also note that I don’t wear a watch or record any runs. I have a rough idea of my weekly mileage but other than that it’s pretty free form. I do one ‘session’ a week at my club, alternating speed and hill sessions and another ‘club run’ of 8-9 miles in the week. I do a longish run on a Tuesday and a longer run on a Friday. I will start my weekly mileage at 50-60 and work up to 90-95. I will throw races in along the way from 10K to 20 miles and get a few fast parkruns in towards the marathon date. I also don’t just go with increasing mileage each week and will knock back the mileage two or three times leading up to the marathon. I tend not to do a big taper cut and just ease back the mileage a bit (marathon week would probably be about 75 miles (including the marathon). Other than that I just wing it. I appreciate this is probably no use to you but it gives me flexibility and allows for any issues along the way. I did follow a plan for my first marathon but I found it increasingly limiting and did start to go off-piste towards the end anyway. I am considered weird by my running mates and fellow club members for not wearing a watch or logging runs.

@alanf, I could have written a very similar post about my own approach in the past. Basically, run a bit more, do a bit more speed/hills work, make sure I’ve clocked up enough long runs.

Even when I’m not in a specific training block my normal week is:
M – 9 miles with the club, 7:45 minute miles
T – 6 miles solo, easy 9 minute miles
W – 10 miles with the club, 7 minute miles
T – 6 miles solo, 9 minute miles but with the odd interval thrown in
F – 6 miles solo, warm up, intervals (alternate between hills and speed), warm down
S – 4 miles easy to parkrun, flat out parkrun, 4 miles home
S – Long slow run, varies between 14 and 22 depending on weather and motivation.

I’m conscious that looks suspiciously like a marathon plan already, it certainly would if I through in a touch of pace at some point in the Sunday run.

I guess as I’m going after a specific time, I wondered if a plan might be helpful. Hmm.

Does your club do structured sessions? I find this the best bang for buck pushing with the younger lads and keeping me honest. I don’t think I get the best out of myself with a hard session like that on my own. It’s good for me to be able to chase or to try and stay in front with others also pushing. Could you get some group interval sessions in or at least once a week? My club does this through the winter, but some of use continue through the summer too.

If you’ve never really done a plan before it might be worth seeking something out as it might be what you need to get you where you want to. It might not be right for you but trying it can’t hurt. Does anyone at your club give advice on that sort of thing. I know someone I run with has done plans for other club members before as some need the structure to motivate them. He actually just follows a similar approach to myself for his own training, when he can be arsed…

hey folks….

talk to me about pants!! Having only recently got into this running lark, i am using my regualr boxers (Bawbag classics). They seem to do the job, but i am worried as distance increases, would i be better off using something a bit more supportive? Or am i over thinking it?

Ideally want to avoid any chaffing and to keep everything down there in place.

Also as the colder weather approaches i am thinking of getting some tights, with shorts over the top. will an extra layer make any odds with underwear/pants.

Apologies if these are silly questions, it just all feels like a bit of a minefield when i look at buying stuff…. base layers, compression layers, shorts, tops, etc etc :)

talk to me about pants!! Having only recently got into this running lark, i am using my regualr boxers (Bawbag classics). They seem to do the job, but i am worried as distance increases, would i be better off using something a bit more supportive? Or am i over thinking it?

Not overthinking it at all IME. Decent pants make a big difference for me. I like Under Armour compression shorts. A bit of compression and decent support. Not cheap (unfortunately you have just missed the black Friday sale, but ther’s usually a deal somewhere) but well worth it. I’ve tried a few cheaper ones from sports direct and they are nowhere near as good.
https://www.underarmour.co.uk/en-gb/p/training/mens_heatgear_armour_compression_shorts/1361596.html
https://www.underarmour.co.uk/en-gb/p/shorts/mens_heatgear_pocket_long_shorts/1361602.html

@v7fmp, good pants are essential.
A few friends swear by Runderwear, but I use these and they work well.
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/men-s-breathable-running-boxers/_/R-p-121488?mc=8489345&c=BLACK

cheers lunge.

Those Runderwear’s aren’t cheap, but then its probably a small price to pay for undercarriage staying in one piece.

Decathlon ones look good too. I will invest!

@nickjb – i take it you wear those shorts as your underwear? rather than those over a regular pant/boxer?

Runderwear usually have frequent discounts. They’re great for chafe prevention.

i take it you wear those shorts as your underwear? rather than those over a regular pant/boxer?

Yep, just like pants. Under shorts in the summer, under tracksters in the winter

@lunge, I’m about to start the 18 week Jack Daniels marathon plan again. Comes from the 2nd edition, things may have changed a little since then. It’s basically 2 structured workouts a week (one of which is the Sunday long run) and the rest is as many steady miles as I feel like. The book does have recommended weekly mileages, but I find things like races, weather, and other real life stuff get in the way of following that too precisely. I’ve managed several sub-3 marathons on it over the past 10 years and will be provisionally thinking of 2:50 at Manchester next April.

I like the fact that it doesn’t prescribe lots of fussy details about 5 miles today, 8 tomorrow etc . Just two structured sessions (which focus on threshold running) and then lots of steady running on the other days. I also believe it’s got a solid scientific foundation to it, it’s not just “we do this because we’ve always done this and it’s what we do”.

talk to me about pants!!

@v7fmp, I use lined shorts (and nothing else), never had a problem with them. Cheap stuff off ebay mostly, some of it I remember as “more mile” brand. They last for years and years, literally. Some of mine must be close to 10 years old now.

When I say *never* had a problem, ok I’ve had very occasional chafing on a very long run on a wet day (or perhaps the occasional hot summer day). Never frequent enough to encourage me to look for another solution. It’s nothing like the sort of problem that cycling can be, for sure.