the equality of sacrifice

The government has recently announced that they’re taking my tax free allowance away so I will be worse off and pay more tax.

Why – so some sponger can have a DVD player and an XBox.

😆

oh dear

Can you give me examples of people who mad emoney without exploiting the poor – paying them less in wages than they earn for their labour?

Why is paying people who work for you less than you earn yourself exploitation? There are many reasons why the business owner is entitled to a higher income, they often work harder, take more personal risks and ideally have had the clever idea, spotted the niche in the market that others haven’t. The whole point is people are not equal, what people contribute through their labour is not equal, hence renumeration is not equal.

it’s normally best to step away from any political thread on stw as you just get shouted down by the same bitter voices.

advice I think I am now going to take and leave the it’s not fair you have more than me brigade to their whinging.

Don’t, Trailmonkey. It’s not funny.

you’re right. it’s scary to think these people are allowed out.

i wonder what he’s a doctor of exactly ? 😯

being satisfied at being fairly well off

He must be in the top 5 % if he pays more than the average household income in tax – £33k in 06.

Why is paying people who work for you less than you earn yourself exploitation

If you cant see it why not do your current job but work for my employment agency and I will take 15 % of your salary see if that helps you understand 😆

You right wingers cant keep arguing you just tell use we are jealous Does any one say here shout that they want to be as rich as you or do they just suggest the wealthy should pay more than the poor? You seem to act as if you are the ones who have lost out in life when in fact you are the big winners however much you are taxed.

advice I think I am now going to take and leave the it’s not fair you have more than me brigade to their whinging.

I’m perfectly well off thanks 🙂

And most of the whining seems to be coming from RSWank (hilarious user name btw) 😐

the poor should just work more, eat less.

Eloquently put Junkyard. Well, it would be if it’d been in English…..

I DON’T MIND PAYING TAX!!!!!

But, I do mind being critiqued just becuase I’ve made an effort in life to secure a decent salary. I’ve lived the poor life as a student (I don’t come from a wealthy family by any means) and I’ve worked hard at my education and career.

And now I understand that I can play a part in paying back to society.

Just stop with the rich men are all tossers jibes please. LOOK at the cartoon that started this all. This is the point.

Would it be too much for you poor people to wave as I drove past? Or send me a Christmas card thanking me?

I DON’T MIND PAYING TAX!!!!!

So what you moaning about benefit scroungers and it’s soo unfair and all that for then? Sorry, but it seems to be that you do mind paying tax. Make your mind up… 🙄

You’re just pissed off because you came on here with a crappy ill-conceived moan, then got made to look a bit silly.

Just stop with the rich men are all tossers jibes please.

Where are they, then? I can’t see any.

Would it be too much for you poor people to wave as I drove past?

So, where has anyone who’s pointed out your folly revealed their own level of income, then? How do you know they don’t earn more than you?

You’ve made yourself look a right wally. I’m sorry, but it’s true.

Eloquently put Junkyard. Well, it would be if it’d been in English

You are university educated and you cannot comprehend my posts – is there a small child near by who can help you with the big words

I’ve lived the poor life as a student

Dear god please tell me we did not contribute to the costs of your education via taxation – see you have done quite well from taxation yourself and what the state can provide with it

It’s the benefit brigade that bug me. Why should they enjoy a nice house, with nice furniture and nice belongings when they’ve not worked for them?

your claims that you are ‘friends’ with people on benefits is clearly bollo… maybe these friends of yours are criminals on benefits perhaps.. Or maybe these ‘friends are just people you have encountered briefly or read about..?

honest people existing on benefits have little indeed to be glad about.. at least not by your standards..

i’ve not read everything on here, because it would annoy me too much, but i haven’t seen many mention that one of the main targets for cuts are tax credits. these are predominantly paid to low paid workers, to supplement their income (and as a subsidy to employers to enable them to pay less than lving wages)

these are not dole scroungers, they are people working but who cannot get by on their wage alone. these people are also facing cuts in housing benefit (many will get partial help towards their rent) and will struggle.

kinda puts a lie to the tory line that it’s cracking down on layabouts.

i guess it’s easier to just label the welfare cuts as hitting a target that everyone hates, rather than addressing the truth

http://www.globalrichlist.com/

Something to think about while you’re choosing a slightly cheaper bottle of wine.

This’ll probably just shine a light on my own fecklessness rather than be constructive (’tis what the internet’s for though eh?), but the bit that stood out most to me was:

DrRSwank – Member

I work stupid hours doing something stressful.

Why do it? There must surely be a point when earning becomes an obsession, wouldn’t it make more sense to earn x-amount less for a life y-amount more enjoyable? (i hear people can enjoy stress, and i’m as much of an overtime whore as the next man, but the two together – really?)
as sweeping generalisations are fun, would earning, say, 60 grand per year rather than 75 make that much difference to one’s ablility to buy nice things/live nice places/have nice holidays etc? This is presuming one wasn’t inextricably tied to a lifestyle that necessitated 75k (addiction to helicopters or somesuch). A three bed detached in a very select area compared to a three bed semi in a nice area?

Seems like an excessive trade off of quality of life to my eye, and that probably explains how i’m wormed my way from middle to working class (not in values my w/class brothers and sisters, just the registrar general’s classification)

Just taking a punt here but I reckon our man sWank is in fact MrNutt.

It would hardy be out of character now would it?

Could be, could be. Woon’t put it past Nutt; he is a racist at heart actually.

I’m above using an alter dear hearts, my money’s on it being a surfer, and i claim my five pounds.

ha ha, very funny DRwank, nobody is that much of a self-centred ****. very good!

I work stupid hours doing something stressful.

Ah so that’s why you’re bitter. Here’s an idea – get a smaller house/mortgage – work less, doing something less stressful – have a better life?

my money’s on it being a surfer

On balance I think not. He’s been able to keep posting this long without a mention of “blue chip clients”, his boat, “stealth bomber” or his fun nights partying on the beach with his friends while swapping over batteries on his phone.

Just got to end of this thread and wanted to know how if I was on £100k per annum I could earn £12.5 net a month? Could somebody point me in the direction of the accountant who performed this miracle?

I pay road tax

no you don’t[/url]

come on chaps – this is still a cycling forum isn’t it – how did you miss this one?

Can you give me examples of people who mad emoney without exploiting the poor – paying them less in wages than they earn for their labour? You do understand how capitalism works dont you?

I understand, but I’m not convinced you do with comments like that. Though it would help if you explained in a bit more detail what you mean by that, as I can see several interpretations:
– that the boss of the company earning more than any of his workers is exploitation
– that the company making more in profit than it pays in wages is exploitation
– that the company paying less in wages than it earns in income is exploitation

Please elucidate so I can shoot down the right one.

The point is Britain is one of the most unequal of all western industrial societies. The gap between the rich and poor is huge and is getting bigger. The reason this happens is because the people who are relatively rich whinge the most. As evidenced by this thread. They are able to nurse a genuine sense of greivance even while they stand to benefit the most from society being set up the way it is. Every single neutral commentary on these latest spending cuts have said that they impact the poor more than the rich: Doesn’t seem to get through to the affluent middle classes does it?

Can’t stomach the whole thread, but two points:

1) not all poor people on benefits are workshy scum living a comfy life. In fact most are not.
2) you don’t really understand the point of tax. You don’t pay into it to get something back, you pay into it to help run the country and that includes helping those in need.

If you don’t like helping those in need then you’re not a nice person.

The gap between the rich and poor is huge and is getting bigger

People keep banging on about this, but:

Take a very equal society, where the gap between rich and poor is low. Then move in a load of super-rich folk from overseas, suddenly the gap is huge. Calamity? Disaster? Regressive move?

No.

You’re entirely right, RSWank. I punched the numbers into an online calculator and then promptly read the wrong line.

£5,400 after tax.

According to this: http://listentotaxman.com/index.php

Still plenty for most.

Meanwhile in socialist worker utopia, the gap between rich and poor is narrowed by a top rate of tax of 100% driving the rich overseas. Who cares that there’s less money in the total economy so the poor have 10% less money, so long as the rich have 50% less?

Aracer – unfortunatly thats not how it works . If it did work like that germany italy norway etc would not be richer than us as they tax higher and have lower inequlities

According to this: http://listentotaxman.com/index.php

Thanks for that link, omitn. Neatly provides the information to prove you wrong on:

“For high earners they’ve recently scrapped the tax free allowance. And, not only that, but that part of your salary is now taxed at 40%!
DrRSwank”

No quite right, and I’d worry if that’s the advice your accountant is giving you. Any lost personal allowance is taxed at 20%.
If you check the difference between 100k income (the point at which you still have full personal allowance) and 113k (at which point you no longer have any), you’ll find that you pay the same amount of tax at 20% in both cases – hence all the lost personal allowance is taxed at 40%. I’ll certainly not be hiring you as my accountant.

Meanwhile a couple of other points are clear:
gross £100k, net £65310.40
gross £113k, net £70390.40, net change £2590
– that’s a marginal rate of tax/NI of 61% on that 13k
– somebody earning £113k is losing 2.3% of their gross income, 3.5% of their net income

I’m far from being an apologist for high earners (I’m unlikely to even pay 40% tax in my lifetime), but we really should get our facts straight.

Please elucidate so I can shoot down the right one

It is a pointless debate it is the essence of capitalism you either think it is ok – return in investment, risk ,entreprenuership, whatever or you think it is not. Either way it is what actually happens you employ people to make /do something for x cost you sell it for y you pocket Y- X – unless you work in banking in which case we pay the losses and you keep your bonus 🙄
What is your view of capitalsim companies/individuals do it to benefit society and provide employment or to make money? Surely they can only make money by charging more than it costs ?
On a small scale [ small businesses] it is probbaly not that bad as rpofit is probably marginal /reasonable/acceptabel whatever but when you see billion pound annual profits for companies it is ,IMHO,excessive and that sort of wealth should be more fairly shared amongst the world’s citizens- people starve to death , cannot educate their children , drink clean water yet we have people with more money than they can ever spend. Doubtlessly some billionaiires have worked damn hard for their money – some undoubtedly have massive talent , some are ruthless , some are corrupt etc. i find it hard to believe any of them have worked of thousands of times harder than their employees.
You are either ok with this or not each to their own. I would prefer a fairer world however unrealistic you or I may think this is.
Unfortunately, many people are motivated by greed and personal wealth rather than soocial responsibility

If I was a highly qualified medical doctor, I’d feel pretty lucky I could get paid hansomely by the state.

GP’s have it much easier since Labour gave them a massive pay rise and relieved them of the obligation to open all hours.

Any one who goes into medicine in the UK knows they will be highly likely to work stupid hours – people don’t just get sick during the normal working week!

Of course, if you feel that you are being unfairly over taxed in your role as well paid doctor, there’s always the option to take your expertise and go and work elsewhere in the world.

As for the extreme left wingers on here – don’t waste your breath on them as they have no idea what is fair, or what is really going on.

If it did work like that germany italy norway etc would not be richer than us as they tax higher and have lower inequlities

What’s their top rate of tax? I’m guessing it’s a bit less than the 100% Che was proposing.

In any case, are you suggesting that the wealth of a country is solely dependent on the taxation system and the rich/poor divide? Or is it possible that those countries you mention might still be richer than us even if they did have more inequality and lower taxation? Come to that, how do you know those countries wouldn’t be richer still if they had our taxation system?

Meanwhile in socialist worker utopia

It’s fairly unusual for you aracer to use the sort of crass rhetoric which is more commonly associated with the likes of ratty.

You sound as if you might be a litle rattled mate – are you ?

Is it a lonely and frustrating business trying to defend the indefensible ?

Or is it that you were itching for a fight but no one seemed very keen so you thought you’d up the antes ?

Still, you finally got a response so I guess it worked.

I’ll certainly not be hiring you as my accountant.

Just as well I’m a lawyer..!

It is a pointless debate

Do I hear you sidestepping my question?

when you see billion pound annual profits for companies it is ,IMHO,excessive

Would billion Zimbabwe Dollar profits be excessive? The same numerically, so what’s the difference? Why are billion pound profits for a company with a million shareholders any more excessive than million pound profits for one with a thousand shareholders? If you’re one of those million shareholders, why should your pension money be spent on overseas aid just because you’ve invested in a big company? Why is a company making a billion pounds profit yet paying ten billion pounds in wages exploiting its workers? Such figures are totally meaningless without context.

You sound as if you might be a litle rattled mate – are you ?

No – just calling a spade a spade, and I missed my opportunity to explain on the other thread how your 100% taxation policy was ideological rather than practical.

Or are you denying:
– you read Socialist Worker
– 100% upper rate of tax is the sort of Policy the SWP would have
– such a rate of tax wouldn’t actually benefit the country

Goodness me, you are grumpy tonight 😐

What’s up mate ?

You can tell me………no one’s listening.

Do I hear you sidestepping my question?

Not sure are you one of those people who needs to read out loud 😉
it was along post to sidestep you not responding may have been more effective.

Such figures are totally meaningless without context.

I gave you the context, is that you sidestepping?
here it is again

when you see billion pound annual profits for companies [ probably better to have said individuals personal wealth of billions]it is ,IMHO,excessive and that sort of wealth should be more fairly shared amongst the world’s citizens- people starve to death , cannot educate their children , drink clean water yet we have people with more money than they can ever spend

tell me this is fair and you are ok with it then?

If you’re one of those million shareholders, why should your pension money be spent on overseas aid just because you’ve invested in a big company?

yes good point let em starve. Someone has enough money to invest they cant eat…which is the greater need ? Help me out it is a tricky one.As I said you are either Ok with this or you want wealth /momey more fairly distributed.

I gave you the context

Not until now you didn’t, but thanks. FWIW I’m no more a fan of people earning huge amounts than you are – the question is what are you going to do about it? Realistically there is no way to grab large amounts of it from them as there will always be loopholes for them to jump through, and if by some means you did manage to close those they’d just avoid our tax system altogether by leaving and taking their toys with them – remember these are the people largely driven by greed and personal wealth.

Someone has enough money to invest they cant eat…which is the greater need ?

See my mention of pensions there? It’s not wealthy people I’m talking about here, but ordinary ones, including plenty below average wage. Are you suggesting totally dismantling capitalism (remind me how well other systems work?) by redistributing all profits made by companies to more needy parts of the world?

I do wonder what you’re doing on here when you clearly don’t need a computer or an internet account (or a mountain bike), and could instead send everything you earn apart from what you need for basics to people poorer than you. Or don’t you practice what you preach? Are you in fact more motivated by wealth and personal possessions than social responsibility?