The Electric Car Thread

I keep getting told we have some sort of climate crisis on our hands, did I miss the bit where it was over?

It’s not over and it is not going to be fixed, it is only going to get worse. Pissing about with policies for EV cars in 10 years time, lorries in 20 years time is going to make little difference.

If you really wanted to do anything about it you would stop production of new cars, limit car use and keep existing cars on the road (we have enough of them already). In 20 years time it would look like Cuba but so be it.

Now go and sell that to the car loving world…

Guessing it was obvious the SUV lovers weren’t gonna go for a smaller sensible sized option.

You guessed wrong. I went for the E Tron as it was the best deal on offer at the time. iD 3 or 4 weren’t available at the time which is what I wanted. I’ll look next time see what deal there are, if it’s a family hatch then I’ll go for one of those. The range will have increased by then, battery weight seems to be getting lighter as they become more efficient and charging speed much faster.

You stick with your trailer idea though.

If you really wanted to do anything about it you would stop production of new cars, limit car use and keep existing cars on the road (we have enough of them already). In 20 years time it would look like Cuba but so be it.

The way to do it – which is wider than cars – is to set everyone a CO2 allowance. Everything you buy has a CO2 charge food, goods, domestic heating, public transport, flights etc and when you’ve used it all up you can’t buy anything more (maybe only basic food and domestic heating).

Products with a longer life eg cars you would have a monthly CO2 charge for the life of the vehicle (like a depreciating asset in accountancy). When the CO2 cost of building the car is used up, say after 12 years then the monthly CO2 charge reduces to zero. But obviously you continue use your CO2 allowance up on fossil fuels if you are keeping an old ICE running

Obviously none of this seems likely although it’s technically possible (big central database plus phone app/CO2 ration chip and pin card required for every purchase). The political will and public support to do it are extremely unlikely to materialise.

Now go and sell that to the car loving world…

It’s not just love of cars, I don’t even think that’s the biggest factor. It’s that our entire economy is based on people being mobile. To get rid of cars you’d have to completely rethink how humans live on a huge scale. Now consider that we’ve spent 5 years almost entirely on Brexit and it was the key issue in the last election and you can see how impossible any kind of large scale rapid change is.

It’s not over and it is not going to be fixed, it is only going to get worse. Pissing about with policies for EV cars in 10 years time, lorries in 20 years time is going to make little difference.

It’s not just about the climate, it’s also about local air pollution which can be reduced by cutting emissions from the vehicle to zero.

To get rid of cars you’d have to completely rethink how humans live on a huge scale. Now consider that we’ve spent 5 years almost entirely on Brexit

Changing our dependence on travel could (not saying will) be approached gradually, with opportunities to adjust the approach. Brexit is an in or out step change, once done it’s irreversible in the short term, which is one reason it was a big thing. I’m reminded of the Alec Issigonis quote.

Obviously none of this seems likely although it’s technically possible (big central database plus phone app/CO2 ration chip and pin card required for every purchase). The political will and public support to do it are extremely unlikely to materialise.

Yep. Not forgetting that they’ll allow you to offset with other people (for a cost)so all that will happen is the rich will still drive,fly,buy new cars and carry on business as usual ,well for the 6 months it takes for the other people to realise what they’ve signed up for a la poll tax and then it’ll be consigned to the bin due to it being political suicide.

Why is it so hard to imagine having a decent public transport system? I mean, I know why, its the UK but its not like we’re stepping into the realms of sci-fi here.

@kerley I agree completely. Changing the drive train is just tinkering round the edges. We need proper solutions. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be the will to even consider them on a societal scale.

Why is it so hard to imagine having a decent public transport system? I mean, I know why, its the UK but its not like we’re stepping into the realms of sci-fi here.

I’d love to see a reliable, convenient and affordable public transport system.

I know, I’m not suggesting anyone isn’t doing the best with the shitty hands being dealt but there is so much more that could be done if we (as a nation if not a species) were actually serious. But that doesn’t suit the status quo.

Definitely, some seem to struggle at how good it could be. I use now to travel to Newcastle for days out, even though it’s now cheaper for me to drive. It’s a lot easier and quicker than driving, plus I can have a tipple.

Most of us know what actually needs to be done to stop the situation getting worse. We also know that nobody is ever going to support any of it so gradual changes here and there for the next 30 years having an even bigger issue to address in 30 years time.

That is mostly down to the inability for human beings to see themselves in 30 years time. They can see themselves now, the direct impacts today and so on but thinking about 30 years time has no basis in reality and they don’t even see that person in 30 years time as them.

I’m currently sat at the Stirling low carbon hub on a free 50 kWh charger grabbing a few miles before heading back up the road

Does no one else have a problem with the well off having their travel subsidised by the general public?

I’m currently sat at the Stirling low carbon hub on a free 50 kWh charger grabbing a few miles before heading back up the road

Does no one else have a problem with the well off having their travel subsidised by the general public?

All ChargePlace Scotland chargers are all currently set to free vend because the new administrator SWARCO made a complete clusterf.. of taking over from BP Chargemaster. Currently you can’t add or change payment details on your Chargeplace Scotland account, SWARCO have lost comms with a large % or the chargers and they are sending out new RFID cards at a snails pace.

More and more local authorities in Scotland are charging for their Chargeplace Scotland chargers but AFIK Stirling distruct still don’t charge however when I was up in Scotland a couple of weeks ago I got 5 rapid charges for free in Falkirk District who normally charge 25p per kWh.

One bad side effect of having free charging in Scotland is that you get free loaders with fast chargers at home sitting on the nearest public chargers to their homes getting free juice and preventing drivers who really need them getting access so I think sooner or later all Scottish local authorities will start charging

Does no one else have a problem with the well off having their travel subsidised by the general public?

That’s basically train travel anywhere in the UK out of the question for you, then.

That’s basically train travel anywhere in the UK out of the question for you, then.

And buses, and to a degree flying, driving and childcare. Where do you stand on state pensions? The NHS and it’s use by drunks, the morbidly obese and people who chose to throw themselves down a mountain on a bicycle during their leisure time?

Does no one else have a problem with the well off having their travel subsidised by the general public?

Since when do you need to be well off to own an EV? They’re not all 150k Tesla Model S/X’s

Since when do you need to be well off to own an EV? They’re not all 150k Tesla Model S/X’s

Seriously?

And buses, and to a degree flying, driving and childcare. Where do you stand on state pensions? The NHS and it’s use by drunks, the morbidly obese and people who chose to throw themselves down a mountain on a bicycle during their leisure time?

Most of those are used by everyone regardless of wealth or social standing. Electric cars are not common on council schemes, probably due to the cost. Once theyre at the price of a 20 year old Focus then we’ll talk.

Seriously?

Er yes.

You can get a Zoe for 5.5k for example, you don’t need to be ‘well off’ for that.

Worth quoting you link for the Zoé 40, Squirrelking, note the cold performance is -10°C:

Real Range between 110 – 235 mi
City – Cold Weather 155 mi
Highway – Cold Weather 110 mi
Combined – Cold Weather 130 mi
City – Mild Weather 235 mi
Highway – Mild Weather 140 mi
Combined – Mild Weather 180 mi
Indication of real-world range in several situations. Cold weather: ‘worst-case’ based on -10°C and use of heating. Mild weather: ‘best-case’ based on 23°C and no use of A/C. The actual range will depend on speed, style of driving, weather and route conditions.

Be nice if they specified the speed on the “highway”. My trip out to the mountains today in the Zoé 52 driving up to the 80kmh speed limit wherever safe gave a consumption of 10.9kWh/100km so a range of 477km or 298 miles. 20 something °C on the way out, 35°C and A/C on full (eco mode off) for the return.

Just watched PS Automagazin on NTV with the Ioniq 5 featured. The petrolhead journo is no fan of electrics but suitably impressed, especially with the fast charge which was still showing 124 KW at 80% battery.

note the cold performance is -10°C:

Ah, that makes a difference for UK considerations at least.

I’m not knocking them, they are great for what they are and honestly enough for most folks needs. I’m just saying that buying a car based on edge case needs isn’t necessarily the best way to go and manufacturers should recognise that. Just because they can doesn’t mean they should etc.

Seriously?

My E-Tron costs less per month overall than my last 2 Golfs. The ID3 would even less again if it had been available.

And buses, and to a degree flying, driving and childcare. Where do you stand on state pensions? The NHS and it’s use by drunks, the morbidly obese and people who chose to throw themselves down a mountain on a bicycle during their leisure time?

They all have either a low or no barrier to use. Being able to spend £5k on a second car, or more likely £5k a year leasing one that’d actually be used for long trips isn’t open to an awful lot of people.

My E-Tron costs less per month overall than my last 2 Golfs. The ID3 would even less again if it had been available.

If you think being able to lease a £60k car doesn’t make you well off I’m not sure what to say.

My E-Tron costs less per month overall than my last 2 Golfs

How about a 20 year old hatchback?

How about a 20 year old hatchback?

Of course they’d be cheaper. 🤷🏻‍♂️

If you think being able to lease a £60k car doesn’t make you well off I’m not sure what to say.

It’s costs less than a new ICE normal family hatch, I could go cheaper again with other EVs available.

You don’t seem to be aware that some people drive cars which have a total cost of about 1 or 2 of your monthly payments of your expensive EV…

You don’t seem to be aware that some people drive cars which have a total cost of about 1 or 2 of your monthly payments of your expensive EV…

You don’t seem aware that just because you own an EV doesn’t make you wealthy, they can be cheaper than an ICE.

You don’t seem to be aware that some people drive cars which have a total cost of about 1 or 2 of your monthly payments of your expensive EV…

I don’t get the point, wealth varies across the world. This point of discussion started off with the comment that EVs are only for the well off and the well off are getting subsidised electric.

That’s blatantly wrong when you can get very affordable 2nd hand EVs, which are cheaper than many ICE cars. You don’t need to be ‘well off’ to get subsidised leccy.

Find me an EV for less than £5000, but the batteries might be half dead so realistically your talking £7k for a used EV. There are plenty of under £1k IC cars that have got another 10 years of running.

Saying there EVs can be cheaper is like saying eating at a Michelin star restaurant can be cheaper…

I don’t get the point, wealth varies across the world. This point of discussion started off with the comment that EVs are only for the well off and the well off are getting subsidised electric.

That’s blatantly wrong when you can get very affordable 2nd hand EVs, which are cheaper than many ICE cars. You don’t need to be ‘well off’ to get subsidised leccy.

The problem is that the cheaper second hand ev’s start at £5k (more than twice what I’ve ever spent on a car in over 20 years of owning them) are only really any use as a second car as they’re both small and have very limited range. £10k gets manageable range but still only in a supermini sized car. They’re currently for the well off who have both off street parking and generally normal cars as well.

I’ve half considered a Leaf for my commute but I’d still need the proper car and it’d probably be better for me and the environment to spend half that amount on a nice commuting ebike instead.

Find me an EV for less than £5000, but the batteries might be half dead so realistically your talking £7k for a used EV. There are plenty of under £1k IC cars that have got another 10 years of running.

Saying there EVs can be cheaper is like saying eating at a Michelin star restaurant can be cheaper…

The battery life thing has proven to not be an issue. If you could get a 20 year EV then they’d be very cheap too, but you can’t yet. The range in older EVs will be rubbish, maybe time to buy a trailer.

No, it’s not like eating in a Michelin restaurant. You’re comparing bangers to new cars, if you can’t afford a new car then it doesn’t matter if it’s ice or EV. Yes, I’m very lucky to have the cash to afford to lease a new car, I know that.

more than twice what I’ve ever spent on a car in over 20 years of owning them

So your definition of well off is someone who can afford a 5k Zoe? Because you’ve never spent that much on a car.

🙈

Many folk get around just fine on smaller battery Zoes. We all have different lifestyles, not everyone has the same needs as you do.

They’re currently for the well off who have both off street parking and generally normal cars as well.

Or for those who know you can charger elsewhere not just at home and can afford one as they only have one car. They spend their earnings differently so can afford an EV.

By the time used EVs hit the cheap end of the market there will be a healthy industry in patching up aged batteries by replacing the failed cell assemblies with new or nearly new cells (the main thing holding this back is that the packs don’t fail in any quantity), there’s already a handful of businesses doing this in the UK. There’s also a growing aftermarket upgrade parts market allowing early cars run bigger capacity batteries and even allow CHAdeMO equipped Nissans gain a CCS charging port.

You don’t seem aware that just because you own an EV doesn’t make you wealthy, they can be cheaper than a new ICE.

FTFY

I don’t care how much your lease is, we’re talking about people living at the bottom end of the wealth scale. They cannot afford an EV lease, even on the never ever.

Hence they drive cars worth about two of your monthly payments.

They spend their earnings differently so can afford an EV.

Do they live in it?

By the time used EVs hit the cheap end of the market…

Yes. By the time. Not now.

I don’t care how much your lease is, we’re talking about people living at the bottom end of the wealth scale. They cannot afford an EV lease, even on the never ever.

The ones who can’t afford a new car if it’s ICE? Ever even on a lease.

Do they live in it?

No, like me their mortgage might be small.

We are at that point in current ICE car’s life that replacement should probably happen.
But, my thinking now is to get a small cheaper 2nd hand EV for the run around jobs, in/out of town, 20 miles to/from Supermarkets, maybe the 1hr drive to nearest big city. The majority of the driving we do by a long way.
Keep the ICE for the long drives – 4-5hrs to Uni for the kids etc.
That’ll keep the ICE going for longer due to limited miles.

Maybe this is madness, so tell me if that’s so.

I kind of think that a cheap EV, and learning how best to deal with it, will be the best thing to do before we all have to get EV’s in the near future.

Sounds reasonably sensible to me, possibly in time you’ll confidence in the EV will grow so you sell the ICE.

That’s blatantly wrong when you can get very affordable 2nd hand EVs

Affordable for whom?

The cheap EVs are cheap for a reason, they all have significant limitations. We needed to replace the Prius that was probably worth about £1,500, the cheapest EVs were three times that number and had the issues we’ve already discussed here.

There may be cheap-ish ways to get an EV of some kind but you can’t argue that EV motoring is anything like as cheap as ICE motoring. I’m a big EV fan and I’m not hard up but I can recognise that cost is the biggest issue for many people.

Maybe this is madness, so tell me if that’s so.

We were planning that, but we needed to borrow money so a lease on a new EV turned out not that different, we get way better range than we would have done on a used EV we could have afforded, and that means we can drive further in the EV, use it more, and end up saving more again.