The Electric Car Thread

You need more chargers because then they compete with each other and the cost limits itself – if it’s a limited extra compared to home charging then people use them more, beyond a pain threshold people start to avoid buying it, the same as any other ‘thing’ be that petrol, bread or chocolate.

I’ve got apps for 4 chargers as that covers the vast majority in SW Norway, and the prices self regulate, especially as I know the price I pay for leccy. If other networks appear I’ll add them if I need. At least one of those is run by an oil company, and despite the rumours of evil they have to stay price comparable.

Why are oil companies interested – well because we see where energy use is going, and because we’re good at large, multi billion infrastructure projects it’s not a big psychological barrier to jump to install these. In contrast small energy resellers will have no experience with big projects, no staff with management experience, so will find it tricky

‘Cars don’t wear out. Shocks, CV joints, injectors, big ends, turbos etc etc wear out. For most things you can replace them and the car will continue. This is both cheaper and more environmentally friendly than buying a new one. ‘ Not true, simply. The emissions from energy use to build a new car and running soon become less than those from keeping a banger on the road. This maths has been demonstrated repeatedly. The only variable is how clean is your energy mix, so you need to think about how to shift that off fosssil fuels asap.

The emissions from energy use to build a new car and running soon become less than those from keeping a banger on the road. This maths has been demonstrated repeatedly. The only variable is how clean is your energy mix, so you need to think about how to shift that off fosssil fuels asap

Define banger? Intuitively I find it hard to believe that manufacturing an entirely new vehicle is more environmentally friendly than keeping say a 10 year old ICE vehicle on the road. But have to admit I haven’t seen any figures to back that up..

Not true, simply. The emissions from energy use to build a new car and running soon become less than those from keeping a banger on the road. This maths has been demonstrated repeatedly.

Genuinely interested in info you have or can link to on this, because I’ve seen the opposite asserted but not proven. I’d like you to be right as I want a new EV more than I want an old car 🙂

The emissions from energy use to build a new car and running soon become less than those from keeping a banger on the road. This maths has been demonstrated repeatedly. The only variable is how clean is your energy mix, so you need to think about how to shift that off fosssil fuels asap

this is demonstratably untrue. A BEV costs 8800kg of CO2 whilst being produced (source
https://www.zemo.org.uk/assets/workingdocuments/MC-P-11-15a%20Lifecycle%20emissions%20report.pdf ) – an oldish car may have emit 140g/km of co2. Even if the BEV caused zero CO2 whilst being driven (unlikely), you’re looking at over 40,000 miles before breaking even.

If you compare an old car to a PHEV (with reasonable average emissions – say 80g/km) the maths is even worse. 6700kg of CO2 is emitted during production, that’s a 70,000 mile payback.

Even if the BEV caused zero CO2 whilst being driven (unlikely), you’re looking at over 40,000 miles before breaking even.

Energy in Norway would be zero carbon, you’d only be looking at the energy cost of tyres etc and building/maintaining all those hydro power stations. But if it’s only 40k miles then that’s really not that much, is it? Even 70k means it’s still a significant net positive.

There are many studies out there into the CO2 that goes into making an EV and well-to-tank CO2 for petrol and electricity.

I used some to do some calculations recently and taking an existing petrol car that gets 45mpg it takes:

(10,000 miles/year) ~5 years to “break even” on the CO2 from building the new EV (+average grid CO2 form the electricity used in driving). Every year you delay going EV takes just over an extra year to get you level (compared to switching today)

(5,000 miles/year) ~11 years

Battery trailer were available in france for the Zoé, I’ve never seen one, they just delayed the need to charge and became pointless when the Zoé 40 was released.

110-140 mile range doesn’t render a range extender pointless. Remember I’m talking about atypical journeys here so they typical drive to the alps/length of Britain for a holiday argument. There are also places where you can go massive distances in “extreme” conditions like Scandanavia where a battery trailer would make sense.

What’s been proven to work is high capacity cars and an excellent reasonably priced charging network. Thank you Tesla for proving it’s possible.

Why would I buy a car with capacity I would only take advantage of a vanishingly small percentage of the time, increasing cost and wear and decreasing range when there is an easy solution for the rare occasions I need it?

Why would tow a trailer behind you when you can

simply stop, have a coffee and be on your way again?

Instant charge by virtue of hooking it up. Do you want to stop every 100 – 140 miles?

Nah it’s not. You’ll still need a charge eventually.

Swap the trailer for a freshie (I accept that by that point you are going to be done in anyway).

There are also places where you can go massive distances in “extreme” conditions like Scandanavia where a battery trailer would make sense.

Some, but I doubt even in Scandinavia you will go more than 200 miles without a filling station which means there’d be a place to install a charging station. And I’ll be they do just that. It’ll be places like Canada or Russia where it’ll get harder but if I end up road tripping those places one day I’ll hire something 🙂

Do you want to stop every 100 – 140 miles?

Who’s talking about 100 miles in this day and age? Since that early Zoe battery capacity has improved to entirely useable levels before a standard for a battery trailer and common connector could even have been agreed on, rendering such a device useless, IMO.

bit of a stunt but it shows whats possible

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1949861

lejog with under 44 mins of charging the whole way. I imagine they weren’t ragging it, but hopefully most will admit that those stats under normal driving would meet pretty much every need.

Instant charge by virtue of hooking it up. Do you want to stop every 100 – 140 miles?

No, I don’t need to now so doubt I will my next one.

Who’s talking about 100 miles in this day and age?

No, I don’t need to now so doubt I will my next one.

*facepalm*

Read what I wrote again, particularly the bit about useful battery capacity for the majority of your driving.

Batteries use finite resources.
Batteries add weight.
Weight reduces range.
Battery capacity adds cost.

Tell me which of these are false?

Having more battery capacity than you need most of the time is good for the battery. The only time I fully charge and get close to full discharge is on long trips. The rest of the time the battery is in the 30-90% range which is perfect for long life.

A bigger battery can make use of faster chargers without deterioration. The charge speed won’t slow as quickly either as the management system seeks to look after the battery. The early 24kWh fast charge leafs suffered rapid deterioration when fast charged at 46kW, the 100kWh Teslas can be charged at 100kW without undue deterioration.

Big batteries are ace, range angst a thing of the past. As for faffing with a trailer with all that entails in terms of hassle driving, parking, storing etc., no thanks, like Drac I’m happy to stop for a coffee after 2-3 hours. Over 4hrs on French routes nationales, that’s as long as a truck driver can legally drive.

Tell me which of these are false?

Well none but I’m not sure what has to do with you thinking future EVs only do 100 mile let alone recent ones.

I’ve explained it once. I’m not explaining it again. Honest tae ****.

It still makes no sense what so ever.

Batteries add weight.
Weight reduces range.

Unless you’re driving up a mountain, the impact of weight on range is negligible and even then can be nearly completely recovered using regenerative braking.

But clearly the answer for squirrel is to carry more weight.

It seems that the only reason for electric cars is to keep car sales and the economy going nothing else hmmm

Hmm they are actually very nice to drive, one foot driving and silky smooth instant acceleration.

Also don’t hydro-lock if you get a bit of water.

In theory less moving parts to go wrong no clutches, actuators,rubber bands, bore scoring ,IMS failures,sumps to hole,to low oil or wrong fuel engine destruction opportunities.

With dual motors you should be able to limp home on one.

I think they’ve got a lot going for them TBH

I think squirrels trying to point out sizing the battery to your real world mileage needs.

It’s a bit like owning a van for the one 300 mile trip a year you go to Newquay with your surfboard,when you only normally do 10 miles a day in a town with small streets and limited parking.

A 100 mile small range and cheap city car would do,but the edge case of that single trip would make what would be the most practical solution for you unviable.

Define banger? Intuitively I find it hard to believe that manufacturing an entirely new vehicle is more environmentally friendly than keeping say a 10 year old ICE vehicle on the road. But have to admit I haven’t seen any figures to back that up.

This is basically a false question. The 10 year old ICE car will not be scrapped just because it’s being replaced with an EV. If it is being scrapped it would have been scrapped whether being replaced with an ICE or EV. But in all likelihood it will be sold on and kept running.

So the real difference is in the CO2 in manufacturing ( and whole life CO2 cost) a new ICE v EV.

We are doing this now, replacing 11 year old Seat Leon against new EV. The Leon is low mileage 1.4TSI so will go to happy new owner and live out its natural life and many more miles. If EVs weren’t a thing we’d be getting a new car anyway

It’s a bit like owning a van for the one 300 mile trip a year you go to Newquay with your surfboard,when you only normally do 10 miles a day in a town with small streets and limited parking.

Not really. It’s a car, they can now so far more miles then they use to, batteries are becoming more efficient and can charge faster. Towing a trailer is just daft when you can stop well after 140 miles for a 10 minute top up.

Like the way they stop motorway services all setting their prices to [average fuel price] + 20%?

I don’t think so actually. Most cars that get scrapped could have been fixed. They get crappy because people buy them cheap an then don’t want to or can’t spend money on fixing them. So the list of things wrong just piles up. Then they get scrappes because they are ‘beyond economical repair’ meaning the cost of repairs is a large portion of or more than the market value of the car.

But the market value is defined by who wants to buy it. And the more new cars that come in at the top of the market the lower the market value of the old ones becomes which results in more cars being scrapped. So yes, ordering your new EV (or other car) probably does result in a car being scrapped at the other end of the market.

So yes, ordering your new EV (or other car) probably does result in a car being scrapped at the other end of the market.

…but more so that if we’d ordered a new ICE rather than EV, which we would have done anyway.

Edit Just seen you said or other car – but I guess ultimately there is a finite life for cars that which is affected by whether people are prepared to look after them – but it’s not relevant to the EV v ICE point really

I guess the pinch will come if Govt starts upping petrol/diesel tax to accelerate move to EVs making ICEs, especially old ICEs, less attractive

… and the older vehicles we sell on do have life after we sell them – I check on DVLA site for MOTs out of curiosity. Even the absolute shed of a Renault Trafic I traded against a new van had a at least another 3 years MOTs after I sold it on.

@dudeofdoom yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying.

I should also point out that 100-140 miles is the cold-mild ranges of the Zoe 40 previously mentioned as the “solution” to range extenders.

@flaperon so we’re just going to ignore all the environmental benefits of dragging less unnecessary weight about and using less resources?

so we’re just going to ignore all the environmental benefits of dragging less unnecessary weight about and using less resources?

No, because I pointed out that the energy from a heavy vehicle is recovered through regenerative braking, and air resistance is the overwhelming factor.

I’m not just talking about power here. I’m talking about the resources used in the batteries, the component parts of the car itself (suspension has to be heavier to compensate), the extra wear on tyres and wear on road surfaces.

I keep getting told we have some sort of climate crisis on our hands, did I miss the bit where it was over?

Well, I’ve had the e-Tron a week. Done a 200 mile round trip in it and a couple of 100 mile days. It’s a lovely thing and living up to expectations. I’m currently sat at the Stirling low carbon hub on a free 50 kWh charger grabbing a few miles before heading back up the road. The trip is reporting 2.6 miles per kw vs 3.4 in the Zoe. Not too bad for such a heavy car.

Lovely aren’t they?

Just give mine a top up on a supercharger as the Mrs forgot to plug it in last night, over 60 miles added in just 10 minutes. As 350Kw become standard that would be 180 miles added, about the time it takes to hook up a trailer.

What we’re the conditions for 2.6mi/kw? Motorway? Single carriage? Town?

Just seen you said or other car – but I guess ultimately there is a finite life for cars that which is affected by whether people are prepared to look after them – but it’s not relevant to the EV v ICE point really

Well I think it might be relevant. I suspect that the cars will be super reliable and all the maintenance cost will be rolled into a battery refresh after 15 years or so. So people might be prepare to bite the bullet, refurbish the battery and end up with as-new performance for less. And even without that the battery could have a high re-use value so the most battered old EV will be driving around with maybe £2k of value in it.

I think that in a decade or two the old car market will start to function quite differently, however we won’t know exactly how until we get there!

@larry_lamb a mix of mainly fast a roads, dual carriageway and motorway. The Zoe gets used mainly for around town.

Mines got a towbar, so about these trailers 🤣

I should also point out that 100-140 miles is the cold-mild ranges of the Zoe 40 previously mentioned as the “solution” to range extenders.

Having owned a Zoé 40 for 2.5 years I can report that the only way to get under 140 miles was to drive unnecessarily fast. It would go up to the ski resort twice in Winter 2 x 110km = 220km = 140 miles and 2400m of climbing. A more realistic range for the Zoé 40 would be 140-180 miles. The car did the 281km (176miles) between the charge points in Marsas and Saumur via the N10 at truck speed in Summer and Winter.

“Emissions Elsewhere”

“Emissions Elsewhere”

Which for public heath is excellent. And lower total emissions is a bonus. You own a car, Redthunder, that much we know, if you must own a car then own one that produces much lower emissions both locally and in total.

“Emissions Elsewhere”

Better then “emissions everywhere”.

“Emissions Elsewhere”

😂😂😂😂😂

Got to love petrol head responses like this, suck it up EVs are coming whether you like it or not.

Had a look at the I pace at the jag dealer today. Absolutely lovely. Not as big as I feared, but big enough for a family of 4, dog and luggage. Anyone know how they compare size wise with an e tron ?

Guessing it was obvious the SUV lovers weren’t gonna go for a smaller sensible sized option. If your needs dictate you need the range then batter in, if you generally don’t then why wouldn’t a smaller, lighter and cheaper option with an option to extend range on the rare occasions you need it not be a good thing?

Ed, those were figures taken from a review site, can’t find the exact one but others give similar figures. I’d imagine any city car is going to perform poorly if you rag it, that’s not news but people do like to maintain a sensible speed.

https://ev-database.uk/car/1131/Renault-Zoe-Q90-ZE40

“Emissions Elsewhere”

Every time a coal or gas fired power station is retired and replaced by renewables every single EV on the road gets cleaner whilst every single ICE car continues to pump out the same amount of CO2. Just accept it you are on the wrong side of the argument or don’t accept it and keep trolling.