The Electric Car Thread

Does it not ring alarm bells with anyone else to see oil companies installing charge points, often benefitting from state aid and then charging high prices for leccy?

Yes, that’s one of the reasons the Tesla Supercharger network is so important, to make it obvious when people are price gouging.

It’s also a good argument for government intervention – pseudo monopolies shouldn’t be allowed to set their own prices

Does it not ring alarm bells with anyone else to see oil companies installing charge points, often benefitting from state aid and then charging high prices for leccy?

Alarm bells? No. I think it’ll settle down. EVs are selling well, hype is there, momentum is growing, and people will demand cheaper charging. Once there are enough chargers people will avoid the expensive ones and prices will come down. No-one would fill up with petrol at £3/l because there are lots of petrol stations, so when there are lots of charge points no-one’s going to pay 80p/kWh. The key thing about electricity is everyone knows how much they pay at home, so it’s obvious when they’re being ripped off.

This is getting a bit jivehoneyjive but if you think that having charging in the hands of the traditional energy majors is a good thing I think your wallet is mistaken.

I don’t think it’s a good thing, but not necessarily a bad thing. There are other non-oil company charging stations and, like I said, everyone knows how much they pay at home.

Because there’s more money in it keeping us buying petrol for as long as possible.

They know the writing is on the wall, of course. If I were an oil company and I wanted to deter EVs I’d be getting the motoring press to praise the glories of the ICE and go on about how boring and nerdy EVs are – but they aren’t.

On top of that, oil companies make tons of cash from other sources.

The batteries weren’t good enough when the EV1 was introduced

It started with lead acid Batteries but ” featured nickel-metal-hydride or even lithium-ion (Nissan) batteries with a range of 100 or more miles” by 98. ” Ovonics, had been suppressed from announcing improved batteries, with double the range, lest CARB (Californian air resources board) be convinced that batteries were improving.

The batteries were already good enough but their existence was not revealed to the people who needed to know.

OK I’ll leave you with your apparently touching faith in big oil to keep your EVs on the road.

So there’s an outage and some how that makes it a conspiracy against electric cars by BP?

no-one’s going to pay 80p/kWh.

That was the tarif on some of the German stations. We generally paid 30-50 euro cents/kWh but there were up to 70 cent ladersäule on the app and some are apparently over 80 cents. I worked it out for my vehicles:

Zoé 12kWh/100km x 70 cents = 8e40
Lodgy 5.8l/100km x 1e55 = 8e99

At the same speed the bigger petrol car is only a fraction more expensive to run, a diesel would be cheaper. Happily most charged rates that meant the energy cost of the EV was about 1/2 to 2/3 that of a petrol car.

When the oil industry controls the charging market you can be sure you pay a lot for electricity once you leave home.

I think someone needs to stop reading conspiracy theories.

The CMA won’t allow them to have a monopoly, there are tons of players in the market which over time will consolidate but not to the degree the likes of Shell and BP own them all.

Does it not ring alarm bells with anyone else to see oil companies installing charge points, often benefitting from state aid and then charging high prices for leccy?

What about EDF then? They do the same thing. Or is that okay because they’re not oil?

Doing the figures for an EV of my own. It seems they make twice the CO2 pollution to manufacture than a normal car and that takes quite a few years to claw back.
It seems to make a lot of sense to keep the car going that I have and only replace it when it is worn out completely ? To help save the environment wouldn’t that make a lot of sense ? It seems that the only reason for electric cars is to keep car sales and the economy going nothing else hmmm

I use EDF chargers. They’ve bought out chargers funded by the regions. I’ve got a card from one of the historic regional suppliers (Mobive) but as soon as I leave the region I get hit with the Izivia tarif which is similar to German rates at DC chargers. The pay now rate is 1e30 per 5 minutes for a 50KW charger that really only gives 30kW. That’s 52 cents/kWh. Or when a Zoé is more expensive to run than a 1984 Peugeot 205 diesel.

It seems they make twice the CO2 pollution to manufacture than a normal car and that takes quite a few years to claw back.

Do you have a link for that? Asking because there is a lot of bullshit and a lot of dodgy reports being spread about on this subject.

And even if it takes a few years to claw back – how long is it going to be on the road? 20? You don’t have to drive it for long, but someone will.

and only replace it when it is worn out completely ? To help save the environment wouldn’t that make a lot of sense ?

If it’ll only do another 50 000km and you’re happy with poisoning the air people breathe then yes to both. If i’t going to do over 50 000km th eanswer is not such a resounding yes and depends on which model you’re replacing with which model.

only replace it when it is worn out completely ?

Cars don’t wear out. Shocks, CV joints, injectors, big ends, turbos etc etc wear out. For most things you can replace them and the car will continue. This is both cheaper and more environmentally friendly than buying a new one. But it is a lot less convenient. ICEs do need to be gone, but in theory the best thing to do is wait until they are all either crashed or rust to bits.

I’m not saying this is going to happen mind.

Doing the figures for an EV of my own. It seems they make twice the CO2 pollution to manufacture than a normal car and that takes quite a few years to claw back.

The larger carbon footprint of an EV is down to the battery. However the battery can be re-purposed or recycled after the car is scrapped. As the electricity used to produce the battery is decarbonised the battery’s carbon footprint reduces. For example a Tesla battery made in Giga Nevada with lots of solar has about half the carbon footprint of the same battery made in China.

Also the carbon handprint of an EV depends on how the grid in the country in which is driven is powered. In the UK we have about 50% low carbon electricity, its higher in France because of all their nuclear stations and in Norway its 100% becuase its all hydro.

Some interesting reading here https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change

If you buy a new EV someone with an even older ICE car will buy your old car and scap their older car so by keeping the market churn going you are helping to get ICE cars off the roads.

Ther comes a point when it’s cheaper to lease an EV than keep a shed of a Passat old car on the road. 😉

Note I haven’t made a single contribution to your Mercedes thread, Molgrips, and yet you stil accused me of being negative. 🙂

I use EDF chargers. They’ve bought out chargers funded by the regions. I’ve got a card from one of the historic regional suppliers (Mobive) but as soon as I leave the region I get hit with the Izivia tarif which is similar to German rates at DC chargers. The pay now rate is 1e30 per 5 minutes for a 50KW charger that really only gives 30kW. That’s 52 cents/kWh. Or when a Zoé is more expensive to run than a 1984 Peugeot 205 diesel.

Cool story bro.

I’m not speaking from a French perspective in case I haven’t already made that abundantly clear.

Just ordered an ID4 life pro performance WITH a tow bar (factory car that was available) and heat pump. Took a test drive in the Ioniq 5 before driving the id4 and I found the ride so wallowy I actually felt a bit motion sick which I never ever do? Don’t know if the tire pressure was low or what the heck was going on but the deciding factor was there was no roof racks available and even if there were it would have to be a clamp style Yakima (only one seemingly available?). The boot internal height was also quite compromised due to the sloping rear window. I was nearly 100 certain I was going for the Ioniq before the test drive..cool car in many ways but the handling sucked and I’m no race driver, I pootle.

Now I’m a pauper.

I answered your direct question to me, Squirrelking, You quoted me then asked the following question:

What about EDF then?

EDF is French company which is 83.6% state owned so it’s difficult to answer your question from anything other than a French perspective.

Don’t know if the tire pressure was low or what the heck was going

Interesting. I have been browsing for 2 years’ time and I’d decided the Ioniq 5 was a better bet due to being much cheaper on PCH. We plan to do significantly fewer miles so there’s a real chance we’d end up forking out for a 50k car that would sit on a driveway for weeks at a time.

Re handling, our Ioniq (un-numbered version) has very soft springs and big fat tyres, which is great really. The ride is really remarkably comfy on rough roads and the battery is so low that it doesn’t feel like it rolls that much – and because there’s so little weight up front it turns in really well and is quite driveable. It might be that they’ve tried to pull the same trick off in the 5 and missed the mark.

Only time it’s not so good is on bumpy motorways. On the bit of M4 before the Severn Bridge with all the lumps it’s quite entertainingly bouncy.

Doing the figures for an EV of my own. It seems they make twice the CO2 pollution to manufacture than a normal car and that takes quite a few years to claw back.
It seems to make a lot of sense to keep the car going that I have and only replace it when it is worn out completely ? To help save the environment wouldn’t that make a lot of sense ? It seems that the only reason for electric cars is to keep car sales and the economy going nothing else hmmm

When the oil industry controls the charging market you can be sure you pay a lot for electricity once you leave home

Most, if not all, companies want to turn a profit and will charge what the market is willing to pay… so any charging monopoly would be bad for consumers, unless it was heavily regulated of course. However as mentioned up the thread thankfully it seems like some decent competition is developing. I reckon the main risk to cheap EV motoring will be if/when some sort of tax is levied, to make up for the missing fuel duty. Although realistically this more likely to be via a hike in road tax, or toll roads, rather than on charging?

The CMA won’t allow them to have a monopoly

Like the way they stop motorway services all setting their prices to [average fuel price] + 20%?

Like the way they stop motorway services all setting their prices to [average fuel price] + 20%?

Having a monopoly on the total market which is what you know I was replying too is different to having having some “prime” locations to be able to up the price.

EDF is French company which is 83.6% state owned so it’s difficult to answer your question from anything other than a French perspective.

Try the fact I’m talking about EDF in the UK. They’re a multinational company in case you never noticed. Anyway, installing chargers and charging higher prices, is that okay because they’re not an oil company? Answer the actual question I asked rather than starting some jackanory nonsense please.

Yeah, charging 20% over for convenience is different to charging 2.5x normal when you know there aren’t other options or they aren’t easy to find.

Off to webuyanycar later today to get rid of the current car, with the intention of becoming a 2 x EV car family. – Just need to decide what to replace with. ?

The problem with the charging infrastructure is that you aren’t just paying for energy (electricity), you’re actually paying for a service (rate of charge or convenience).

If you pull up to a service station for some en route charging which will you choose, a 7kW charger at effectively the same cost as you would pay for electricity at home, or a little more for a 22kW, or more again for a 50kW, or a 100kW etc.?

When you look at it from a service perspective it’s easy to justify the cost increase for each level of improvement, however it soon becomes uneconomical or at least unattractive economically for the consumer.

The reality is that each EV owner will need to consider their typical usage and ensure they have a battery with suitable range and suitable (likely home or work place would be ideal – though this comes with a whole host of constraints) charging. Beyond that for the exceptional journeys the owner needs to weigh up the convenience of a battery with additional range, the additional cost of lugging the larger battery around for the vast majority of typical journeys, the extra initial cost of the larger battery, the cost saving of not needing to charge as many times on atypical longer journeys, vs inconvenience of a smaller range battery, the initial saving on choosing a smaller battery, the extra cost of charging at higher cost “convenience” chargers etc. etc. Unfortunately this isn’t necessarily an easy task.

Alternatively those with higher mileage requirements may need to look at alternative technologies, such as fuel cells, which again requires very significant infrastructure developments.

There is also the possibility of developing other technologies or combinations of technology, such as a hybrid car with the ability to run off both batteries and fuel cells. This, provided the energy/fuel is generated via carbon neutral methods, could prove very useful. Not only in that it allows flexibility but also it allows for competing markets which could allow the market (edit: for en route charging) to better regulate cost through consumer choice and demand.

Took a test drive in the Ioniq 5 before driving the id4 and I found the ride so wallowy I actually felt a bit motion sick which I never ever do?

Interesting. I don’t like the styling of the Ioniq 5 but I had shortlisted a Kia EV6 for my next car which is built on the same E-GMP skateboard. Hopefully Kia will do a better job with the suspension than Hyundai, the Kia e-Niro certainly has a better ride than the Hyundai Kona which is on the same platform as the e-Niro.

It now looks like Kia will be releasing a refreshed e-Niro at the end of the year. Now if they have boosted the charging power to something over 100kW that might be the perfect replacement for my current e-Niro come 2023.

Off to webuyanycar later today to get rid of the current car, with the intention of becoming a 2 x EV car family. – Just need to decide what to replace with. ?

Ooh I love a bit of vicarious shopping. What are your requirements, and what do you already have?

The problem with the charging infrastructure is that you aren’t just paying for energy (electricity), you’re actually paying for a service (rate of charge or convenience).

Yeah of course, that’s why we don’t mind paying 40p, but 80p is a bit of a stretch – and a quid? Really?

When you look at it from a service perspective it’s easy to justify the cost increase for each level of improvement, however it soon becomes uneconomical or at least unattractive economically for the consumer.

This is the problem with the whole EV market. Most people won’t buy EV while they are seen as expensive to buy and run with punitive electricity prices as soon as they leave home. When the charging infrastructure is in the hands of oil majors that is unlikey to improve. The EV market currently is people who value clean air and are onboard with doing something about global warming even if it costs more.

The most reliable chargers I use are run by supermarkets and town councils.

Ooh I love a bit of vicarious shopping. What are your requirements

Sunglasses holder #1 priority. 🙂

Most people won’t buy EV while they are seen as expensive to buy and run with punitive electricity prices as soon as they leave home.

The general narrative seems to be that they are cheap to run – that’s on every article and every review. I don’t think people actually know about the high cost of Ionity etc until they turn up at one in their new car. But even then it’s not really a problem as such – for the occasional use, it’s trivial; for the regular user you can subscribe anyway and get it at a more sensible price. So I really don’t think high charging costs are ‘the problem with the whole market’. IMO that’s purchase cost. As I said earlier, I’m looking at iD4s for my next car but at nearly £50k it’s an outrageous sum for me to buy a car and not something I’d ever have considered otherwise outside a lottery win scenario. But that’s coming down.

Sunglasses holder #1 priority.

Well, the Hyundai one takes my shades perfectly 🙂

The problem with the charging infrastructure is that you aren’t just paying for energy (electricity), you’re actually paying for a service (rate of charge or convenience).

If you pull up to a service station for some en route charging which will you choose, a 7kW charger at effectively the same cost as you would pay for electricity at home, or a little more for a 22kW, or more again for a 50kW, or a 100kW etc.?

Yep, for rapid charging the units are pricey (often more expensive than the cars that plug into them), the grid connections they need are expensive to put in, contactless card payments have fees and need connectivity, the units need maintaining (software and careless users damaging plugs), people expect 24/7 phone support, etc.

Ideally for the providers they have the units busy much of the time, but people want enough chargers that they can just roll up and plug in (rather than queue) and to mitigate any charger failure so you want more units (more ££££) to make the location attractive.

Fastned said the “real” cost of providing rapid charging is well above 1 euro per kWh. Lots of charging providers are just taking on loads of investment/debt to land-grab good locations in the hope of making the numbers work further down the road. Gridserve at least look quite canny for using charging hubs as well-connected sites for their grid balancing batteries so they have other income besides putting power into cars.

I keep saying it, the solution for atypical long distance journeys is a trailer mounted battery pack with a common standard connector.

When the charging infrastructure is in the hands of oil any energy majors in a deregulated market that is unlikey to improve.

FTFY

squirrelking
I keep saying it, the solution for atypical long distance journeys is a trailer mounted battery pack with a common standard connector.

No doubt a sensible option, but I cant stop imagining some Max Max: Fury Road contraptions circling the M25

We’ll that was painless. -About £500 less than the auto generated value taking into account a poorly re-sprayed bumper, stone chips and scuffed alloys.
Currently got an e golf. Thinking e tron or I pace – probably ex demonstrator / pre registered. Or perhaps wait and have a look at new i4

Battery trailer were available in france for the Zoé, I’ve never seen one, they just delayed the need to charge and became pointless when the Zoé 40 was released.

Another failed concept was the battery swap, which is why the Fluence was had an easily swapped battery and a system to do it. People don’t want an unknown second-hand battery.

What’s been proven to work is high capacity cars and an excellent reasonably priced charging network. Thank you Tesla for proving it’s possible. But only possible when you can subsidise the charging network by factoring part of the cost into the sale price of your cars. Once you have to price your cars competitively the system fails.

Why would tow a trailer behind you when you can

simply stop, have a coffee and be on your way again?

The EV market currently is people who value clean air and are onboard with doing something about global warming even if it costs more.

Currently maybe, but that will change fairly rapidly as the legislated phase-out of ICE cars gains pace

The most reliable chargers I use are run by supermarkets and town councils.

I can’t imagine our cash-strapped councils being keen to install and run charging facilities on a large scale. If involved at all I’d guess they’d be more likely to out-source to one of the energy companies?

Supermarkets might see a value in providing cheap charging though, to drive footfall in their shops, much the same way as their cheap petrol and diesel.

Future wholesale electricity price is another question mark. I think I’m right in saying that UK electricity price has historically tracked the price of generation, and hence largely governed by gas price. With renewables in the mix this link is getting weaker, and at some point will presumably no longer be relevant. I’m not sure what happens then, perhaps pricing becomes more supply/demand governed. And we’d start to see energy suppliers making money on wholesale rather than consumer prices (in much the same way that oil companies income is mostly from crude oil sales, rather than the few pence per litre they make on the actual petrol and diesel products)

I keep saying it, the solution for atypical long distance journeys is a trailer mounted battery pack with a common standard connector.

Nah it’s not. You’ll still need a charge eventually. We need more chargers because there’ll be more cars and you will want one nearby that you can use, you don’t want to have to drive 20 miles to get one. So we need a high density of charging points for those reasons besides range anxiety.