The Electric Car Thread

More bullshitting from Tesla.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/what-does-teslas-battery-day-mean-for-e-mtbs.html

According to Drew Baglino, the senior vice president of powertrain and engineering at Tesla, the innovations boost the energy by five times, the power by six times, and the range of a car using these batteries by 16 percent. It’s worth saying we don’t know what the baseline for these numbers are as no exact figures are given but we assume its in relation to the 21700.

Those numbers don’t make sense. The new battery has five times the energy, but only 16% better range. If it had 5 times the energy density, you would expect 5 times the range.

What they’ve actually done is increased the size of the battery so it has 8 times the volume of a 18650 cell and 5.5 times the volume of a 21700 cell. Thus, with the same energy density, it will store 5.5 times the energy of a 21700 cell, but you won’t be able to fit as many into the same space. A 16% improvement in energy density in three years is the sort of incremental improvement you would expect from normal development.

So, it may be cheaper to make a smaller number of larger cells, which raises the question of why they don’t just make a few enormous cells instead of lots of tiny ones. The reason, apparently, is heat dissipation – it’s much harder to keep them cool as they get bigger, and if they overheat, they’ll fail. A lot of those limits are to do with chemistry and physics, so improvement will be incremental unless a battery with a completely different chemistry is developed.

Problem is, the “new” Tesla battery is still in early development and years away from production, with a reasonable chance that the scaling problems will be insurmountable. The “$25 000 Tesla in three years” is just a marketing guy throwing bullshit numbers out there to get some attention.

I’d suggest you go and actually watch the Battery Day keynote, rather than relying on secondhand badly interpreted information.

They quite clearly described how they would get the improvements they announced, the manufacturing process changes needed to get there, and the timeline.

For example, the article suggests that increasing the size of the battery makes it harder to cool. Tesla described other process improvements that will make it easier to dissipate heat.

For example, the article suggests that increasing the size of the battery makes it harder to cool. Tesla described other process improvements that will make it easier to dissipate heat.

Point is, these are incremental improvements that give improvements of a few percent per year, not an exponential increase in performance. That’s assuming everything goes according to plan, which it may not. Two years ago, Musk promised a 25K Tesla by next year. Now it’s been pushed back two years. Either he was making shit up back then or their development schedule got massively delayed. Either way, the chances of a 25K Tesla in three years are pretty slim.

Same with autonomous taxis by Christmas this year, just Elon Musk making shit up to impress gullible fanbois. Not actually happening in real life.

Hols, perhaps you might like to read an article from someone who might actually know what they’re talking about, rather than making stuff up based on your dislike of the company’s boss:

https://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-new-battery-design-is-brilliant-says-a-top-researcher-2020-9?r=US&IR=T

This is also worth a read, actual costs of running a Tesla3 over 100,000 miles, in two years:
https://electrek.co/2020/09/26/tesla-model-3-high-mileage-extreme-low-cost-minimal-battery-degradation/

Hols your carping about Musk is starting to say more about you than him.

A good effort at a reasonable thread. Bit odd that it’s ended up like that. 🙄

New Tesla model 3 owner here. It’s quite the mix of absolute brilliance and un-usable nonsense. I love it.

Any chance of taking us for a spin in it sometime @pictonroad? They are on our company car list now although I would need a Model Y and doubt they’ll be available in 12 months when mine is due (supposed to order March next year but might be able to string it out a few months)

Much as I dislike Musk and think the Teslas still have some major flaws the Supercharger network is a massive plus. We tend to drive to Germany a few times a year so your info on the improvements in the charging network are interesting @edukator, ta. Was woeful last time I looked into it.

I think what I’d really like is the VW Id5 Passat sized estate but doubt that will be available next year and even then would need to go on the company car list at a grade I can have. Got a wall charger and off street parking, most days I commute 50 to 100 miles so a BEV would be perfect 95% plus of the time. Suspect I might end up with another Passat GTE though which is annoying even if it is the definition of a first world problem!

Should get my Kia in a couple of weeks, had my pod point fitted at home this week.

I have managed to get to eastern Germany in a Model 3. Supercharging was fine – Dover / Brussels (don’t touch anything) / Wiesenthal (vegan schnitzel at the autoraststat). There’s one in Weimar which is 25km from where I’m staying which has been handy when the local charge network proved a bit unwieldy.

November for my Audi now. The Pod Point is in but needs activated as apparently I need earth bond the gas meter and water pipe. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I have managed to get to eastern Germany in a Model 3.

Strange, I struggled to get a few miles from Pateley Bridge to Lofthouse last night because the full beam wouldn’t work properly.

When they fitted our charging point the guy drove a 2ft steel rod into the ground in the garden to use as the earth.

Really quite want an EV to replace my ageing SMax, but with 3 kids getting one that can take 3 child seats in the back is problematic.

Leaf may be possible, but that’s about it.  MG5 looks too narrow in the middle otherwise I’d be marching down the dealers!

NB Tesla’s are way out of price range!!

Edit: Oh yeah, and we only have on street parking, on a Victorian street so until it’s ok to drag a cable halfway down the street and over the road to charge “at home”, it’s a bit moot…

When they fitted our charging point the guy drove a 2ft steel rod into the ground in the garden to use as the earth.

That’s likely what I’ll do just earth the gas to a ground rod as doing it to the water pipe will be a pain. Just need to check with sparky friend see if that’s ok.

Here’s an interesting addition to the EV roster, Polestar are actually putting their Precept concept car into production, design work being carried out here in the U.K., manufacturing at a new, custom factory in China. There’s a significant amount of environmentally friendly materials being used, too, with flax-based composites, cork and recycled plastics.
https://thenextweb.com/shift/2020/09/28/polestar-is-actually-going-to-make-the-precept-its-eco-conscious-concept-car/

The Hummer is coming back as GM's first full-electric vehicle. And it's going to be expensive: The first model's suggested price will be $112,595.https://t.co/6kO8eQbKWI

— NPR (@NPR) October 22, 2020

The GMC Hummer EV will have three electric motors generating 1,000 horsepower and can run 350 miles on a full charge. It can go from 0 MPH to 60 MPH in about three seconds.

The truck will have a suspension height that can be raised about 6 inches for off-road situations. Its tires can drive diagonally in a feature called “Crab Mode.”

This will be GMC’s first full-electric vehicle and is set to enter production in late 2021.

We have just dipped our feet into electric vehicles for the first time. We have about 20 A Class Petrol/Electric hybrids arriving and a further 10 C Class Diesel/Electric hybrids.

From what i have heard regarding the A Class the electric is lasting for about 30mls and then you are driving around in a pretty low powered petrol engined car. It takes about 1.5hrs to recharge at a 7kw supply or quite a long time on home 3 pin and costs about £2 to recharge at home. £2 for 30mls is pretty good but it depends on you charging it every day so i would say you are looking at maybe every other day realistically (Most of our staff arent even bothering). So 182 recharges x 30mls = 5460mls costing £364. I would calculate based on normal petrol engine getting 40mpg a saving of 5460/40=136.50×4.54=619.71 x£1.10 = £682. Total saving = £318 per annum.

TBH most of us are just looking at the huge tax savings and the eletric motor boosts BHP to something like 200bhp on the A class and 300+ on the C Class.

Quite disappointing for £30-40k cars

There’s never been a better time to buy an A-Class. To make charging at home even easier, we’re now offering a free BP Chargemaster Homecharge wall box worth £499* when you buy a new electric or plug-in hybrid Mercedes-Benz. Alternatively, you can opt for a 2 years’ free membership to Polar Plus public charging network*. Shop for your new car on our Online Showroom today.
*Wall Box offer applicable to the installation of a BP Chargemaster 7kw single phase communicating wall box, with standard domestic installation costs, or a 2 years’ free membership to Polar Plus giving you access to the Polar Network of electric vehicle charging points provided by Chargemaster Limited. Qualifying EVHS OLEV grant customers only. Subject to eligibility. No cash alternative. On new car orders and registrations from 03.09.20 – 31.12.20. Click here for full terms and conditions.

Why don’t you try and take advantage of this offer, you’re more likely to charge it every night if it’s all just there for you (rather than having to faff with plugs and cables into the garage or house etc).

Exempt from retail offers unfortunately. Costing anyone that wants one £500 to install

Anyone have experience of >7.2kw charger?

I’ve got improve charging provision for a company with 1×7.2kw & 3×3.7kw single phase chargers.

I’m looking at installing two 11kw 3 phase twin outlets like this Unit

But thats over £2.5k + Labour & I don’t want to scare them with the price – anyone know of cheaper options ?

depends what they need them for, if it’s just a perk for staff / customers then a load of untethered 7.2kw chargers would be fine I’d imagine. If it’s for delivery vehicles and they often want them charged asap then Rolec seem to be the budget manufacturer so you’ll probably not find any 3phase 11kw commercial charger cheaper than the one you linked to. Surely you need to sit down with them and find out what they’re going to use them for and what they need?. I’ve got a domestic untethered Rolec 7.2kw BTW

Has anyone experienced charging problems? My Kia is just over a week old and the first few charges were showing the 278 miles that Kia claim but now they vary between 233 to 254 miles at 100% charge. I have charged it on my home charger and works charger so I know it’s not the charger.

I guess I’ll be calling the lease company tomorrow to try to get it sorted.

It’s a range guess based on your previous driving just like a petrol car, with the added factor of things like heater settings.

If you’ve been doing fast motorway driving and have the heating cranked up then I wouldn’t be surprised if you see lower range estimates first thing after a charge.

The range displayed depends on how you drive, the accesories you’re using, wet or dry roads, the temperature (and what setting you have the heater on). The difference in range it’s showing is well within the variations you can expect. With our old Zoé 40 we saw from between 140km and 400km after charging (IIRC), the lowest after a motorway trip home foot to the floor and the highest pottering along on holiday with a slight descent before the charge.

Ah right, thanks. I didn’t realise it guessed the range at charging. I was under the impression it always showed the 278 at full charge.

It is being used early morning and late afternoons so lights, wipers, heater on. I understood range did vary with things on just didn’t know about the charging aspect.

@Kuco That doesn’t sound right to me. If I understand correctly, you’ve brimmed it and when you unplug it the range is anywhere between 233-278 before you set off?

Our model 3 when charging for ‘daily’ (about 85%) rather than ‘trip’ (100%) always shows between 272-274 miles once charged, and has done for 8 months.

My E-Tron was delivered last week. What an absolutely superb car, smooth to drive, quick to pick up, boat loads of room and very comfortable. Looks like I’m getting about 160 miles at this time of the year. So far 250 miles has cost us nothing in electricity.

Sounds good! A colleague has the e-tron and absolutely loves it. Electric cars are an absolute revelation (in my view anyway). Even my wife’s relatively modern petrol saloon car feels pretty agricultural these days in comparison!

Nickewen, the first few days it always showed 278 when fully charged but the last 5 days it varied

Might be worth giving the dealer who delivered it a call and see what they say. If they say the same as Edukator and simon_g then fine. If it is a battery or charging issue I want it sorting.

I had the same last week Kuco. My i3s has always shown around 150/60 when fully charged but when I got in to go to work on Friday it was showing 135 @ 100%. Turned out I had turned the heater up the day before and by turning it back down to the usual boosted the milage back up.

Compared to the air con, sport mode or ‘progressive’ driving the heater makes by far the biggest dent in range. Put a jumper on!

I’ve only driven it once in sport mode, 95% of the time it’s in Eco.

Sport mode was fun though 🙂

Aye, cabin heating will absolutely destroy range. Heated seats for the win

Am I the only one who thinks a heated seat feels like I’ve pissed myself? 🙂

Yes.

This is worth a read, the costs involved with an EV if things go wrong can be fairly high…
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/09/vw-repair-bill-passat-gte-warranty
Of course, most modern cars have a lot more whizzy tech in them, so if something does go tits-up, it’s really gonna hurt! A glass roof getting cracked? About £2k, an LED headlight unit? About £1200. Even a front screen, if it’s heated like mine, that’s about £1000, and if it has a sensor array built into the mirror mounting for speed signs, lane deviation, etc, that’s about two and a half hours to get it replaced and recalibrated; a big screen like a C4 Grand Picasso even more than that.

Am I the only one who thinks a heated seat feels like I’ve pissed myself?

Yes

Our i3 varies between 160 and 120 miles showing after a full charge. It varies depending on the previous journey.
Perfectly normal, same as a range left in an ICE car. Mine shows between 450 and 600 depending on how it’s been driven before filing the tank.

More anti-EV propaganda from, Countzero, and about hybrids too. 😉 Full EVs tend not to have some very expensive parts to go wrong, such as an engine. 🙂

Fact is all cars are money pits and some manufacturers need more persuading than others to fix them at a fair price or under warranty. I can only comment on Renault because I only know people with Renault EVs. One motor failure repleced without question at no charge under warranty. I’ve paid for the full 5 years on mine, if nothing else it will make it more saleable if I decide to change.

Even a front screen, if it’s heated like mine, that’s about £1000,

Doesn’t nearly every insurance offer windscreen cover?

Anyway Stark One.