The Electric Car Thread

When I was at Welsh Water I worked and published with one of the people who worked on the Severn tidal project. From an engineering point of view it was a goer, but even back then all the environmental issues it would create meant it had no hope at a time nuclear and coal were considered safe and good for 200 years by which time fussion xould be along. It was only the last two years I worked there 86, 87, that the greenhouse effect became a factor to consider.

My view on fussion hasn’t changed since then – don’t count on it. Hope for it but plan without it.

25% of 43% is 11% overall for wind, 13% of 43% is 6% overall for solar. Pretty much what I said. If you’re adding 25% and 13% to say that wind and solar make up 38% of our overall generation, then I’m sorry but you’re making a very fundamental mistake in handling percentages.

No what I said was 43% was the whole renewables sector which is made up of 25% for wind (14% offshore, 11% onshore) 13% solar (38% so far, you still with me?) and 5% other (which we can assume is biomass, etc) so the total 43%.

According to wikipedia, Hinkley C will cost £20billion

Oh God, please stop using Wikipedia. Hinkley point was was revised up by the government in 2016 to state £23bn, but it’s only the headline construction figure. The governments own Major infrastructure Projects Report of 2016 estimated that the total cost for the Station would be nearer £37bn including operation to payback. Fuel use, storage, and site cleanup are not considered. The cost (to date) of the Sellafield decommissioning is £121bn.

I worked on Rolls Royce’s Civil Nuclear Project back in 2007/2008 and know the costs involved in terms of operation, life and end of life. There’s a reason RR shelved the idea. The modular reactors are a means to reduce infrastructure costs (essentially using a PWR2/3), increase speed of deployment, decrease fuel use and increase flexibility. even with this, I still think it’s a bad idea, but does at least overcome some of the problems of time, size and scalability.

Your costs are for the plant, not the operation of it and not the full lifecycle and again, you’re comparing to solar, not wind or tidal which’re more efficient.

EROI has to consider the effect of inflation as the energy out and the energy in are relative to it. most comprehensive model of eEROI dinclude it but many simplistic ones don’t
EROI

Because they are horribly inefficient, compared to other forms of solar

Independent estimates put Tesla’s solar tiles at >19% which is within 15% of the very best, but more than makes up for it in that it covers more of the roof. It’s also almost passive. Once installed it’s free to operate and will do so with minimal fuss for several decades.

Modern thin film voltaics like those used in Tesla’s tiles are said to have a 40-50 year lifespan with a projected drop in efficiency of less than 0.1% a year if kept clean and unmarred.

In summer they will essentially power everything. In winter, they may onlt provide enough to power the eletric requirement of heatpumps, but that on it’s own would remove the need for Gas and electric heating.

It’s a win win!

As for rooftop solar it’s cheap when you consider the environmental cosys of fossil fuel alternatives. Check out insurance company estimates for the cost of climatic change, then the loss of life, habitat (even for humans) and it starts too look cheap.

Even in money terms it’s cheap. In Germany solar rooftop is cheaper than grid power even with no subsidy. They’te legislaying to make it obligatory on every new building or renovation.

In winter, they may onlt provide enough to power the eletric requirement of heatpumps, but that on it’s own would remove the need for Gas and electric heating.

How many kw you fitting for that to happen in winter ?

@pedlad

I’m closing in on signing up for an ioniq 5. Really like the looks. Hate Tesla looks. It has the same high speed charging ability as the porsche for reasonably Common national travel. Other option is the polestar but I don’t think that has as much room in the backseat which I need and also doesn’t have the fast charging

The only thing that would stop me buying the Ioniq (aside from being poor) is that I think the Kia EV6 (which is essentially the same thing underneath) actually looks better and in the GT variant is faster.

Another thing that might stop me (at the moment) is that all of the pictures and things I’ve seen are from non-uk spec cars and carry the caveat that the UK spec may be different. Top gear also said that you might want to see it first as it’s quite large, but doesn’t look it in photos.

How many kw you fitting for that to happen in winter ?

@Trail_rat – That’s a fair slap in the face. : – )

But if done properly with a decent ground source heat pump (GSHP) , the CoP should be 4-8, so you’d be looking at what 12000kWh of average annual heating, so 1500-3000kwh, assume it’s all in the 6 months of autumn/winter so you’d need 8-16kWh per day, with a 4kW array at 25% efficiency, you might just make the lower end estimate in daylight hours…maybe : – ) but even if it doesn’t it’s still a fairly low cost at £2 a day even without solar.

I will also admit that a decent GSHP is really expensive and not suited to a lot of places, so an ASHP with a CoP of 3 is more likely.

In December my panels produce 1/4 of their June prodiction at 43N. Even in a full passivhaus with a ground sourced heat pump the comfort level would be marginal. As it is they just meet my domestic demand as the solar thermal isn’t enough on its own in December. Without wood to burn I’d need 50 panels rather than 13 to go 100% solar in December.

On the other hand solar makes a lot of sense in areas sunny enough to need air con.

Oh God, please stop using Wikipedia.

Did you miss the bit where I multiplied that number by 5, to account for disposal costs, and found nuclear was still 3x cheaper than solar (and without considering the disposal costs of solar)?

recycling costs of solar, not disposal.

Sources for your nuclear and solar costs would be welcome. Buying a solar panel you pay the full cost of the power now, mine are over 10years old and the year before last was the highest production so far. 25 years is about the minimum production life to put in your calculations – hopefully more.

Drac
Full Member
I’ve come back from my holiday to find the 50Kw chargers have changed to pay to use. So, I’m now using my home charger overnight and will use them or the 350Kw if I need a quick top up. Never mind I have 9700 miles of motoring for £10 so can’t complain.

Same here, all the free to use West Yorkshire Engie rapid chargers ends in October, I’ll have to start using the home charger. I got nearly 2 years and 24000 miles of free charging out of it.

twrch
Did you miss the bit where I multiplied that number by 5, to account for disposal costs, and found nuclear was still 3x cheaper than solar (and without considering the disposal costs of solar)?

I did, but it’s still not enough.

Hornsea Offshore windfarm has a generating capacity of 1.2 GW, cost £4.2bn and has a load factor exceeding 38% and climbing. We could have almost 10 of these for the price of just HPC and would exceed its maximum generation capacity by 50% on the same load factor.

Re mining. Most of the components in wind turbines are cheap, readily accessible and are accessed as part of other mining activities. They’re also (for the tower and structure) cheap to produce and easily recyclable. The blades may not be, but why would they need to be unless damaged. If they’re CFRP, they’re not going to fatigue.

You’ll find pics on web pf old blades being buried in the US. They have a fatigue life. The answer is to make blades that can be recycled. The latest blades have a higher recyclable content. Properly recyclable blades are work in progress.

The blades may not be, but why would they need to be unless damaged. If they’re CFRP, they’re not going to fatigue.

They do accumulate damage over time, which reduces efficiency. They can be repaired though.

Bloomberg did an article last year on buried windturbines.

Also the BBC did an article last year as well.

Great use of old wind turbines.

Time, because you’d do well to bring new nuclear plant online within twenty years

Maybe if you’re starting from scratch but in the last tranche three different designs received Generic Design Approval (Hitachi ABWR, Areva EPR and Westinghouse AP1000) and were ready to go right when Fukushima hit, Germany shat the bed, NPower pulled the plug on the Hitachi sites then Westinghouse went bankrupt. The ABWRs are actually incredibly quick to build and AP1000s were already working albeit in China. Since then the EPR has been proven to work (again, in China) and if we had any ambition we could have just bloody nationalised it (again).

Are there plans to build 8 more nuclear plants?

The latest gen was supposed to see new plants at Wylfa + Oldbury (Hitachi), Hinkley Point + Sizewell (Areva) and Moorside (Westinghouse) with 2 reactors at each side except Moorside with 3. Latterly Bradwell was named as a site for the Chinese HPR1000 which was submitted with support from EDF in return for investment in their sites.

As for decommissioning costs, Sellafield is not a comparison to any other site besides Dounreay. Both sites have major legacy issues from improper inventory management and material defects. As far as I’ve ever been aware no commercial generation site has any issues remotely like Dirty 30 or the shaft.

EPR isn’t working in China, it’s idle while the sort out fuel rod issues.

Final waste sites or lack of is still an issue to solve. France is stuck with other countries waste they won’t take back. These issues are somewhat harder to solve than the balancing and storage issues associated with large scale renewable adoption.

As for cost, we’ll be paying for all the nuclear energy that’s been produced so far many generations to come. You can’t bury and forget.

EPR isn’t working in China, it’s idle while the sort out fuel rod issues.

I see that, not been at work for several weeks so never knew. In any case it runs which was my overall point, unlike the reactors at Flamanville and Olkiluoto, so we know the design works now.

Agree storage is a major problem, hopefully breeders become commercially viable soon as they can chew through the low enrichment uranium and plutonium stockpiles and produce much less waste. Not a silver bullet but hopefully a leap forwards. Same with ITER in Cadarache.

Personally I don’t see it as an either /or situation but there has to be honest debate from all corners about up front costs (financial and environmental) as well as long term implications regarding siting and end of life disposal. Your point about the Severn barrage being a good case of something looking easy on paper but not as great environmentally as it first appears.

I’ve been driving this Merc for a few weeks as you may have read, but yesterday I jumped back into the Ioniq EV for an errand. Obviously the cabin whilst decent is not like the Merc but I have to say that even with this basic EV the driving dynamics are just as entertaining if not more so. It’s generally much more pleasant to just push the pedal and go, without having to consider what your engine and transmission are doing, but the EV turns in and corners beautifully because there’s so little weight in the front. And of course it surges forward instantly under the pedal. It really was fun.

I can only imagine what a sporty or high end saloon EV would be like but there aren’t many available yet. The Ioniq 6 looks pretty interesting on that front.

even with this basic EV the driving dynamics are just as entertaining

In this lies the rub. I’m into cars, have read Autocar since I was 14 and I’d never even look at a Hyundai before, let alone consider buying one. But quality of engine performance and noise is not an issue with EVs – electric motors give or take a few % or a synthesized noise are all the same. So that element of car choice is gone. A 4 hr trip from Leeds yesterday re-inforced that we’re beholden to smart mway speeds and the chance for a country road blast is also increasingly rare.

So with the koreans upping their interior quality and infotainment and VW-Audi group seemingly struggling and BMW going town an odd styling cul de sac in my eyes, I find myself strangely attracted to this Ioniq. I know it is v big internally but that’s a plus as I have >6ft teenagers to house! Or maybe I’m just getting old !!

ps any chance this thread can stay as cars and the arguments on e-generation get their own?

@pedlad – I do keep trying to bring it back, but I suppose the electricity generation aspect and the full carbon lifecycle are all a part of it, as is convincing those who don’t believe that the math and methods are actually borne out in reality.

but I suppose the electricity generation aspect

it’s the whole point for me tbh. I wouldn’t get one until I can generate my own cheap, clean leccy for it (don’t have panels yet!) as otherwise, with the greater capital cost, it doesn’t work out financially, and it’s a total red-herring environmentally if you’re just charging your EV from fossil fuel based power!

Never been a petrol head so as long as it drives ok, is reliable, within budget and you can fit a bike in the back, couldn’t give a shit what it is or what badge it has!

The South Wales barrage scheme never added up and the guy behind it was pretty dodgy iirc. Private eye got more than a few column inches out of that story.

That cupra someone linked looked great. About 30k, 0-60 in 6.6 for the fastest one, speedy charging, and rwd! 👍

it’s a total red-herring environmentally if you’re just charging your EV from fossil fuel based power!

You’re not – the UK national grid has decarbonised by two thirds in the last few years and I think last year saw low and zero carbon sources overtake fossil fuel sources for the first time. Plus there’s the air quality benefit.

You’re not – the UK national grid has decarbonised by two thirds in the last few years and I think last year saw low and zero carbon sources overtake fossil fuel sources for the first time. Plus there’s the air quality benefit.

I mean that sounds great, but “decarbonised by two thirds” whilst obviously an improvement is meaningless without saying what it’s gone from and to (could still be shiteloads of carbon!!)

I just googled and it looks like on average UK electricity is about max 40% renewable right now – which is brilliant actually, more than I’d have thought – but still means 60% of the time (more, overnight, when there’s no solar I guess) you’ll be charging from non-renewable.
https://www.power-technology.com/comment/uk-electricity-generation-greenest-year-2020/

The air-quality aspect is an important point, although more so I think if you’re considering a diesel rather than petrol, vs EV.

@zilog6128

it’s the whole point for me tbh. I wouldn’t get one until I can generate my own cheap, clean leccy for it (don’t have panels yet!) as otherwise, with the greater capital cost, it doesn’t work out financially, and it’s a total red-herring environmentally if you’re just charging your EV from fossil fuel based power!

You’ may struggle to charge a car on home solar charging alone. Remember, most of these new cars have a battery pack that’s over 40kWh, even assuming peak generation from your legally limited 4kW solar array, you’d struggle to charge it in daylight hours for most of the year. Also, it’s likely not to be at home when your power is being generated. Even a home battery such as a Tesla Power Wall won’t help as it can only store about 6-12kWh and costs about €13k.

Thermal cycle in power stations is about 50% efficient, transmission loss is around 2%. Your FF car is about 30% efficient, so even an EV ran on fossil fuels can be more efficient. In reality UK electricity is already generated by around 40% renewables and you can pay a little more to make sure that’s where most of your power comes from.

An EV can be surprisingly cost efficient even on smaller mileage and economical cars. We had a 2007 Fiat Panda 100hp that did about 45mpg costing about £90 in fuel a month to do around 9-10000 miles a year, coupled with road tax, the cost of it’s servicing and maintenance was about £150/m.

We did PCH on an i3 for £247 and with free charging available at work, no road tax, no maintenance, it was only £90 a month more for a nearly new car. We’ve had it 4 years and it’s cost me £290 in servicing, £40 in parts and less than £300 in power over 37000 miles. Sale of the Panda paid the deposit and left enough to get a home charger. I’ve also had to buy a single set of tyres at £400. The panda would have been £370 for tyres, but would’ve needed two sets by now.

We switched to a green tariff as soon as we bought it.

I mean that sounds great, but “decarbonised by two thirds” whilst obviously an improvement is meaningless without saying what it’s gone from and to

It’s not entirely meaningless no. Clearly using only 33% of what you were using is a significant reduction in real terms as well as effort.

But quality of engine performance and noise is not an issue with EVs

Indeed – I think we focused a lot on managing weight distribution and on power delivery, and the engineers have spend however many millions of hours working on them, but they’re suddenly not an issue with EVs. The only possible downer is for German petrol heads, since EV top end speeds aren’t that high so it’d mean calming down a lot on the Autobahn. Which is no bad thing for everyone else.

it’s a total red-herring environmentally if you’re just charging your EV from fossil fuel based power!

You aren’t though, in the UK. And even if you were the way power is used is more efficient in an EV.

I find myself strangely attracted to this Ioniq.

The 5 or the upcoming 6?

VW-Audi group seemingly struggling

I dunno, the iD3/4 seem well received and the 3 looks like it’s flying off the shelves going by what I see on the roads.

Remember, most of these new cars have a battery pack that’s over 40kWh, even assuming peak generation from your legally limited 4kW solar array, you’d struggle to charge it in daylight hours for most of the year. Also, it’s likely not to be at home when your power is being generated. Even a home battery such as a Tesla Power Wall won’t help as it can only store about 6-12kWh and costs about €13k.

I really hate it when people start with, “remember” or “think”, like you’re **** stupid, and couldn’t possible figure it out for yourself. So condescending <rant over> 🤣
Who is flattening their battery and charging it fully every day? Certainly wouldn’t be my use case, nor anybody I know. You have other issues that need to be addressed, if you’re driving that much. It just needs to be plugged it overnight, every night, to be topped up. Perfectly feasible with home solar (except in darkest winter maybe). And, personally, I wouldn’t even consider home solar without a battery, as that is substantially less useful.

It’s not entirely meaningless no. Clearly using only 33% of what you were using is a significant reduction in real terms as well as effort.

it’s still not none, so you’re a net carbon generator, so it’s a red-herring in terms of being planet-saving… a much better idea would be just drive less/not at all. e.g. I cycle to work if I can, which is better than driving using slightly-greener-some-of-the-time leccy

Yes, our car takes 7 hours to charge, but given we actually only drive about 10 miles a day that usage only takes an hour or so (managed by the smart app, it could be quicker if needed) and costs 10p.

There’s probably enough wind power for that. Although it’s a good reason to roll out charging points at people’s workplaces.

I just googled and it looks like on average UK electricity is about max 40% renewable right now – which is brilliant actually, more than I’d have thought – but still means 60% of the time (more, overnight, when there’s no solar I guess) you’ll be charging from non-renewable.

Sure, but you need to think about the counter-factual, which in most cases would be driving an ICE car instead. So you’re going from 100% fossil fuel (ok, I know there’s a small biofuel element) to say 60% fossil fuel. That’s quite a drop.

UK government GHG conversion factors are currently 0.04826 kg CO2e/ km for a medium electric car, and 0.18785 kg CO2/e/ km for a medium petrol car. So an electric car today, using UK national grid as its charging source, has CO2 emissions of around 25% of an equivalent ICE car.

Obviously this argument doesn’t apply if you drive an EV instead of cycling 😉

Obviously this argument doesn’t apply if you drive an EV instead of cycling 😉

I actually really want an EV van – I don’t need convincing! – as when I’m not cycling I’m driving a diesel van. They’re just too expensive right now.

it’s still not none, so you’re a net carbon generator, so it’s a red-herring in terms of being planet-saving

Er no, it’s not a red herring at all. It’s not perfect, but it’s not useless. We’ll never get down to zero carbon, that’s not possible – we could get down to a sustainable level though which means balancing production and absorbtion.

If you are demanding zero carbon now, then that’s nice and all but it’s simply not possible given the world we now live in, unless you take over the world and become a global dictator.

So you’re going from 100% fossil fuel (ok, I know there’s a small biofuel element) to say 60% fossil fuel.

And you’re using less of it as well.

If I’ve got this right a 50mpg car is using about 3MJ/mile, whereas a 5 miles/kWh car is using only 720kJ/mile. Someone check my maths as that seems nuts.

EDIT actually yes it’s not bad if you take the usual figure of 25% efficiency of a petrol ICE.

we could get down to a sustainable level though which means balancing production and absorbtion.

there is no “sustainable level”, which is not zero (or less). If the carbon keeps increasing, we’re still ****, it’s just a question of how long.

even assuming peak generation from your legally limited 4kW solar array,

Legally limited is misleading. You can have any array you want(assuming the space)you just have to apply to the relevent agency which is why I asked how big an array you were planning to heat your house in winter.

But it’s all immaterial unless you only drive at night and can charge all day.

What it does do is offset your other use at least assuming your home during the day to use it.

there is no “sustainable level”, which is not zero (or less)

There is, because the environment absorbs CO2 all the time and it will absorb more CO2 the higher the concentration is. We just need to not exceed the absorbtion capacity of the planet. Most is absorbed by the oceans.

Most is absorbed by the oceans.

if that’s what you’re banking on, I have some bad news I’m afraid
https://en.unesco.org/news/unesco-cautions-ocean-risks-losing-its-ability-absorb-carbon-exacerbating-global-warming

I really hate it when people start with, “remember” or “think”, like you’re **** stupid, and couldn’t possible figure it out for yourself. So condescending

Well, maybe if most of your first post wasn’t complete rubbish, we might have guessed that you had a clue? All I had to go on was what YOU wrote!

I wouldn’t get one until I can generate my own cheap, clean leccy for it (don’t have panels yet!)

So long as its generated from renewables, what does it matter if you or someone else generates it? the cost difference is negligible, so why should it stop you getting an EV? Having to buy your own panels and house battery would just increase your costs.

as otherwise, with the greater capital cost, it doesn’t work out financially,

As described above and further above in my first post – it does work.

it’s a total red-herring environmentally if you’re just charging your EV from fossil fuel based power!

Again, you assumed it was 20% renewables, when its actually 40+%, didn’t know about thermal efficiency differences, etc.

I only replied based on what you wrote, so was I being condescending or replying based on the information provided? I certainly apologise, I didn’t mean to offend your delicate sensibilities.

@trail_rat,

I thought 4kW was the limit for domestic, something to do with single phase power transmission? (I know you can actually go much higher on SP, but I thought this was a recommended limit.

@daffy

<4.14kw (3.6kw post inverter losses) you notify the dno

>4kw (3.6 post inverter losses) you ask their permission and it can be declined

Which is a pain if you’ve an East west split roof as your peak output is limited by your array split.

My folks run the ashp for the residents pool off a 4kw solar install in summer. So the heating thing can be done. How ever that summer in the middle of France. 25kwh/day generated not the UK winter