The Electric Car Thread

@pedlad it looks like the ID3 has averaged 3.6 mi/kWh in the 220 miles since it was delivered.

In Tesla money that’s 278 wh/mi but I tend to use more than that and average around the 300 mark.. so it is actually doing better than the M3P.

Now there are other factors at play here.. the Performance doesn’t have very aero wheels like the ID3 and I sometimes have the bike rack/bike/roofbox up top but more often than not it’s just the naked car. My model 3 missed the standard inclusion of the heat pump the newer ones get. I’ll be monitoring the ID3 over time.

A further factor is my wife’s lead foot and habit of driving too fast whilst also stressing about range 🤷‍♂️ (I can see exactly where she is and what speed she is doing on the app!) But this will average out across the cars as we regularly drive each other’s.

There is no mandating of EVs by the government though, twrch, just incentives which clearly aren’t enough given current uptake. There need to be incentives in other areas too.

My first holiday this Summer was a train to Paris then winding our way 1445km back home on Bromptons, which have some embedded carbon on too. We stayed in 19 campsites of which only one had solar heated pool and showers. About 180km were on cycle paths, 25km trails, 250km cycle routes on roads and the rest on the quietest roads on the map. Yes, more cycle infrastructure and renewable energy would be welcome. The main incentive behind the cycle paths we did was tourism and the economic benefits thereof.

This holiday is in Zoé. 10.9 kWh/100km so far. A camping holiday horse riding, canoeing, mtbing, walking, swimming… with public transport would be nice. As it is all the kit only just fitted in Zoé. Society is currently built around cars and a road network. I’ll use that system in the absence of anything better with the least filthy car available.

If you only read stuff in English you’ll only get one view of the world, the anglo-saxon one. Not all the wisdom in other laguages makes it to English news sources, unfortunately. Google translate works so well I fail to see the problem with linking stuff in any language.

Google translate works so well I fail to see the problem with linking stuff in any language.

But it doesn’t always work, especially with technical language. That’s my main objection.

Lots of foreign articles are printed in English, similarly English is the Forum language so its not really asking much to use that in discussion. It wouldn’t be half as bad if it wasn’t near on every single article you link to.

I was serious though about the statistical relevance of that insurance article you linked to, it doesn’t take percentage share per household into account so whilst 7 battery fires for Tesla may seem small, as a percentage of total sales it may be more statistically relevant than it appears. It also doesn’t take into account the severity of a battery fire which, as I pointed out was the other half of the equation hence GM advising not to keep charged or charging cars indoors as the risk was high enough to require mitigation.

Finally regardless of your personal remarks directed at me I was out of order with the personal remarks back, sorry for that.

Fact is (French article not linked) EVs catch fire less than ICEs.

Most STWers seem quite happy with links to foreign stuff, I always post visible urls so people can chose to open or not. No links to conspiracy theory nonsense hidden behind text from me.

There are several STW regulars in many EU countries. I got to 14 without thinking too hard and many more irregular members. One of the delightful things about this forum is the diversity of veiws from Germany, Spain, Belgium, Austria, France, Sweden… . If you want to go anywhere in Europe there will be someone on STW to help you out with local knowledge.

Tbh I’m jealous of the ease with which you move between languages. Overseas links are no issue for me. Good to see an alternate pov and I’d recommend bing translate over Google 👍

Fact is (French article not linked) EVs catch fire less than ICEs.

I’m not disputing that, what is of greater relevance is of those ICE fires how many have spontaneously combusted whilst parked up as a %? I’m very aware it happens on occasion so there should be figures out there to answer the question. The next question is how does that compare to the incidence rate of BEV fires?

There are far, far less BEV’s on the road than ICE’s so those fires are of greater statistical relevance if you’re comparing like for like.

There are several STW regulars in many EU countries.

I know, that’s still missing the point that the ligua franca is English.

FFS! ST`FU!

There is no mandating of EVs by the government though

The only reason so many manufacturers are switching to hybrids and EVs is that the EURO emissions regulations make it harder and harder to make an ICE car, and ultimately will make it impossible. Even us in the uncultured UK apparently will have a ban on new petrol cars in 2030. I’m not sure how you can say there is no mandate, when that is precisely what is happening.

If you only read stuff in English you’ll only get one view of the world, the anglo-saxon one.

I deal in facts and figures. The lingua franca of science and research is English.

I’m not disputing that, what is of greater relevance is of those ICE fires how many have spontaneously combusted whilst parked up as a %? I’m very aware it happens on occasion so there should be figures out there to answer the question. The next question is how does that compare to the incidence rate of BEV fires?

Arguably a ICE fire just needs bad luck (parked up after extended drive, football or something rolls underneath and wedges against the exhaust) whereas for a BEV to catch fire a significant number of safeguards would have to fail.

ICE fires how many have spontaneously combusted whilst parked up as a %

I’ve had this happen. Bought a car that had recently had its exhaust done. Drove home late one night, parked it up and went to bed. Had a phone call 30 mins later from the fire brigade who wanted to get into it as there was smoke pouring out. They got it out and it turned out that when the exhaust had been fitted some underbody insulation was disturbed, some of it was touching the exhaust and after a long drive followed by a stop it got hot enough to catch fire.

I’ve owned maybe 20 ICE cars so I’d say theres a 5% chance of it happening ;)

BMW M3 on the M4 last week. Front end completely engulfed in flames. Starter motor stuck on?

Ferrari 458…

Almost 3000 McLaren’s recalled over fire risks…

Battery fires are more dangerous, but should start to become even rarer as battery management becomes better.

BMW have recalled various models over recent years due to fire risks, it was too late for my Uncle’s the recall came soon after. BMW hybrids have been one of the models.

As an aside, we keep seeing quoted figures of a carbon payback in miles of EV over ICE, but what is a good number here? Between the lines I read the implication that 50k miles or whatever is not good, and I don’t get it.

Any number here that’s less than the car’s life denotes a car that’s emitting less over its life. The numbers we see tend to be about 1/3 of a car’s design life, and my experience of their actual life is similar. Of course I’d like this number to be as low as possible but we’re well over the hurdle that justifies the manufacture of the EV over the manufacture of the ICE.

FFS! ST`FU!

@drac I’ve made my point regarding language. Fine.

If your problem is with me calling out bad use of statistics and risk calculation then sorry but no.

Everyone else – I never said ICEs don’t have similar issues, I’m asking what the percentage is that spontaneously combust and questioning whether it’s more, less or the same as BEVs.

Between the lines I read the implication that 50k miles or whatever is not good, and I don’t get it.

Any number here that’s less than the car’s life denotes a car that’s emitting less over its life.

Yes, it is probably better that over its entire lifetime, an EV emits somewhat less CO2 than an ICE car. However, it’s not exactly a drastic reduction, and combined with a whole different set of environmental issues (mostly focussed around the sourcing and disposal of the battery pack and all the other electronics), I think it’s at least up for debate that owning a petrol car (especially one with no bells and whistles) and driving it less is better for the environment, overall.

However – as I pointed out in my older comment – if it’s absolutely essential that we immediately cut our CO2 (as I am assured is true), then buying an EV doesn’t achieve that goal. It might take 10 years to drive the necessary 50,000ish miles, and until that point, you have emitted more CO2 compared to someone who doesn’t own an EV.

On the subject of fires, my BiL is a fireman and was telling me how electric cars are a real problem for them as they don’t have the tools or methods yet to deal with when they get damaged in crashes. and once they are burning, really hard to put out.

I’m sure they’ll work it out but a bit of a grey area at the moment.

a whole different set of environmental issues (mostly focussed around the sourcing and disposal of the battery pack and all the other electronics)

Before long it will all be recyclable. It will have to be – we’ll be sitting on a big pile of valuable materials whilst seeing high demand for those same materials. There’ll be a way.

However – as I pointed out in my older comment – if it’s absolutely essential that we immediately cut our CO2 (as I am assured is true), then buying an EV doesn’t achieve that goal. It might take 10 years to drive the necessary 50,000ish miles, and until that point, you have emitted more CO2 compared to someone who doesn’t own an EV.

It doesn’t slash emissions immediately, no. But it is a necessary step to e sure lower emissions in the future. And let’s not forget not all EVs are bought as greenwash. You can buy one to replace a worn out (or crashed) car and you can drive it very little and you can keep it 20 years. They aren’t exclusive.

I think to compare apples with apples we’re talking about a new car coming onto the road, with a given expected annual mileage, and whatever its expected life is, and comparing between that car being EV and it being ICE.

The need to reduce car use and to reduce the number of cars manufactured and to do all sorts of other things remains regardless.

In light of that, one should be comparing total environmental impact of the manufacture and use of the car over its life, and picking the best one.

When I did that, I reckoned a comparable ICE car represented 3+ times the carbon emissions overall, when compared with an EV. To me that’s a very clear difference, yet it’s not out of line with the payback numbers one sees quoted, from which it seems to me that folk don’t derive the same conclusion at all.

fireman and was telling me how electric cars are a real problem for them as they don’t have the tools or methods yet to deal with

I went on a fire warden course when I worked at an alloy wheel manufacturer. When the fireman running this found this out he said that when alloys became common place on cars they caused problems as water an magnesium don’t play nicely together.

I’ve made my point regarding language. Fine.

No, it was to do with pair of you starting to ruin a good thread.

Fine, I’ll stick to the point as I was trying to in the first place.

As you were…

On the subject of fires, my BiL is a fireman and was telling me how electric cars are a real problem for them as they don’t have the tools or methods yet to deal with when they get damaged in crashes. and once they are burning, really hard to put out.

Tesla make a fire-fighter instruction book. I think all EVs have the same standards (cut-points for 12v system under the bonnet on the passenger side).

Don’t think there’s anything you can do for a lithium battery fire but try to cool it down and let it burn itself out.

Will be interesting if in the future it leads to major road closures for days at a time if they can’t move the cars.

Before long it will all be recyclable. It will have to be – we’ll be sitting on a big pile of valuable materials whilst seeing high demand for those same materials. There’ll be a way.

Maybe, although as it is currently cheaper to use newly-mined minerals, the fact that it will take those minerals becoming more scarce for recycling to become viable means that the cost of a battery pack will increase. It’s very hard to extract the lithium from a lithium battery, and most places that currently try to recycle those cells don’t bother trying to get the lithium back.

It doesn’t slash emissions immediately, no. But it is a necessary step to ensure lower emissions in the future.

Excellent, then I have 10 years to find a way to cut my transport emissions by 60%, and you have 10 years to find a way to live without your AMG shooting brake ;-)

I think to compare apples with apples we’re talking about a new car coming onto the road, with a given expected annual mileage, and whatever its expected life is, and comparing between that car being EV and it being ICE.

My maths works out regardless. It would be interesting to work out the relative CO2 emissions if the ICE in question were a very small car with no extra toys. It may be that someone driving an old Mini or Fiat 500 – sized car, with no extra bells and whistles, emits less CO2 over the lifetime of the car than someone driving a modern EV.

It’s very hard to extract the lithium from a lithium battery

I don’t think lithium is the scarce part of the battery, is it?

Excellent, then I have 10 years to find a way to cut my transport emissions by 60%

Not sure what you mean here. We need to both reduce our collective mileage AND reduce the emission of the fleet. Remember the EVs sold now will be around for 15-20 years, or preferably more if governments get their acts together. And let’s also not forget that the only reason they are available now is because people are buying them new instead of ICE cars.

and you have 10 years to find a way to live without your AMG shooting brake

4 days left on the 28 day warranty period :)

OK then, Twrch, present your maths for all to see.

My old Mini 850 used about 8l/100km and went to the breakers at just short of 160 000 km on its original engine which was exceptional. So that’s 12 800l of petrol + the resourcrs to build it. The Zoe weighs about double but won’t but won’t burn around 10 tonnes of fuel. In fact given where I live it won’t burn any fossil fuel. A better comparison for your maths is the Dacia Spring.

My most recent petrol vehicle, a Dacia Lodgy averaged 5.8l/100km and weighs 1.2 tonnes for a 7 seater car.

There are now muliple studies to demonstrate that EVs always beat ICEs on lifetime resources/CO2 even in China and Germany with their high coal use in electricity production. Article BFM.

I don’t think lithium is the scarce part of the battery, is it?

There are other minerals in a lithium battery that are more scarce. However, lithium is absolutely essential (unlike cobalt, for example – a cell can be designed without it, for various performance tradeoffs). It is not particularly scarce, but still difficult to process and purify. You either have to dig an enormous hole, as the concentration is low, or pump up huge amounts of lithium-containing brine and let it evaporate.

It then takes an enormous amount of water and energy to convert the lithium to a format suitable for use in batteries.

Even so, this is still easier than trying to extract lithium from used cells, and that is due to the chemistry involved, and not due to scale. The most economical current method is “pyrometallurgy” – basically, burning them. It only recovers the cobalt, but it’s still more economically viable than trying to leach out the lithium by other methods.

Not sure what you mean here.

I pointed out that a new EV will leave you in “CO2 debt” for around 10 years until you’ve paid off the manufacturing cost of the battery pack. If that’s ok, then I can keep going as I am, as long as I’ve got a plan to reduce my emissions in 10 years time. Maybe I’ll switch to a motorbike. They take much less energy to manufacture, and get much better mpg.

Maybe I’ll switch to a motorbike. They take much less energy to manufacture, and get much better mpg.

a vast majority of second car use cases would be better served by motorbike/moped

how ever by their own admission most road users will tell you – not a **** chance on these roads …… and i see their point.

I pointed out that a new EV will leave you in “CO2 debt” for around 10 years

Ok but if a new car is required, and there is no old one to maintain, should that new car be ICE or EV?

Ok but if a new car is required, and there is no old one to maintain

looking at autotrader we are a significant way off that hypothetical plenty of sunk CO2 to be used and for the technology to mature.

Some more numbers: 265 000 domestic fires a year in France for 29 000 000 households. 1/4 is an electrical fire, 80 000. 22% of those is a clothes drier – 16 000 clothes drier fires. 1/3 households has a clothes drier so roughly 10 000 000 clothes driers
16/10 000 clothes drier fires.

600 000 EVs and plug-in hybrids

You’d expect 900 chargng fires from EVs and plug-in hybribs a year to match the clothes drier. We have single figures, too few to figure on the list of causes.

This is important Drac, there’s too much anti-EV propagander and it’s important to back up assertiions I’ve made with facts when they are disputed. In your job you are well placed to k’ow and assess risks.

OK then, Twrch, present your maths for all to see.

I already did, showing that you are in CO2 debt for 50,000 miles (or maybe 10 years) after buying an EV, and demonstrating that buying an EV will not immediately cut your CO2 emissions (in fact they are worse, in the short term). As we are constantly being told that we must cut CO2 right now, I pointed out that buying an EV will not achieve this goal. And if I actually have 10 years to do this, I have that much time to adjust my lifestyle to achieve the goal without demanding the extraction of all sorts of minerals and a huge input of manufacturing energy and resources to do so.

In fact given where I live it won’t burn any fossil fuel.

Yes, you are lucky to live somewhere that is so extensively powered by nuclear power. If only we didn’t keep decomissioning existing sites at astronomical cost here in the UK, and cancelling new nuclear projects.

Ok but if a new car is required, and there is no old one to maintain, should that new car be ICE or EV?

Depends. Can the planet handle increased CO2 emissions in the short term, if you buy an EV?

Tesla claim that they can recycle 92% of a battery cell, so there must be other methods than burning them.

Tesla claim many things, including being able to make money from your Tesla by renting it out as a robo-taxi by 2020.

Yes, there are methods which will recover a higher % of the original cell, but as I said, they are less economically viable due to the chemistry invovled, even though they recover a higher percentage of materials.

Do you agree that buying a new ICE is worse than buying a new EV now Twrch given that both cover the same distance over their lifetime?

It’s important to compare apples with apples with apples and a new ICE is more harmful long term. Cut down now by all means, ride you bike bit don’t buy an ICE unless you know it will be scrapped in less than Whatever mileage is EV payback where you live. Unless you have a terrible accodent record that’s almost nowhere according to BFM.

don’t buy anbrand new ICE

an important distinction in the current scenario which will become less relevent as time progresses.

Still EV curious and have considered one previously.

What does it cost you to do say 100 miles in electric. I think it’s 20p a KWh at the moment, do you apply for a cheaper charge rate at night ? I say this as my current home leccy use is incredible (hot tub and two gaming PC’s in use). My petrol does about 30 to the gallon in town – so minimum cost is about £21 per 100 miles in fuel.

Both me and MrsF are WFH, but in work 2-3 days a week from September. A small EV is a consideration over and above our conventional cars – mine’s 19 years old, but hauls 4 bikes round.

The thinking is we might get one as an additional car for local stuff/commuting, and keep the petrols for long distance.

The other thought is stuff it, keep the old cars, and buy a Nissan 370Z or something as daft for weekends (not green).

Other complication, we’re both not likely to be working same days – we car shared before the pandemic. If not working same days, I’ll commute on my MTB down the canal more (25 mile return), so EV arguments are getting less ‘positive’.

I agree with your distinction, Trailrat. If you do less than 3500 miles/year a small second-hand petrol car is no worse over 10 years. But a second-hand EV is even better and the seller is more likely to have replaced with an EV.

Whoever bought my old Zoé got a car with zeo defects apart from xorn front tyres and no measurable loss of battery capacity. I slow charge to 90% when possible.

Can the planet handle increased CO2 emissions in the short term, if you buy an EV?

What’s the alternative, how do we get them on the roads without short term carbon emissions? Are short term carbon emissions better than long term ones? If you say no, then we’d never be able to build any solar panels, heat pumps, wind farms, nuclear power stations, fusion reactors, or any of the useful stuff.