The Electric Car Thread

I was interested to read that EV sales in Norway have now passed petrol cars and if you add in plugin hybrid sales they pass diesel sales too.

If you look at the UK August YTD volumes, there’s been 80k new diesel’s registered versus 674k Petrol, 214k BEV, 100k PHEV and 170k HEV. The total with some kind of battery propulsion is 484k.

Year-on-year that’s -13% diesel, +1% petrol, +11% BEV, +25% PHEV and +18% HEV. Not found any data on hydrogen vehicles but I presume that’s pretty tiny in comparison.

I wouldn’t want one without a heat pump. People are moaning about winter range being two thirds summer range – not me. I lose about 10%

I have a Hyundai, and a heat-pump. Lost about 17% range over winter. I can live with that as only affects a few journeys over the winter period.

That was one of the big turn off’s with the Audi Q4 – £950 for a heat pump, that should come as standard.

Well, it does on an I4…

I suppose you could say the same about indicators on a BMW ?

Nothing is ‘standard’ it’s just been factored in to the price already. You could argue that BMW are limiting customer choice.

I was interested to read that EV sales in Norway have now passed petrol cars and if you add in plugin hybrid sales they pass diesel sales too.

Bit more than pass diesel sales  – 85% of new cars sold in the last couple of years are electric, and that’s down from 90%+

I was interested to read that EV sales in Norway have now passed petrol cars and if you add in plugin hybrid sales they nearly pass diesel sales too.

Bit more than pass diesel sales  – 85% of new cars sold in the last couple of years are electric, and that’s down from 90%+
Posted 26 minutes ago

My bad, its not sales but actual cars on the road, diesel 34.8%, EV 26.3%, petrol 26.2%, plug-in hybrid 7.3%.and hybrid  5.4%.

madhouseFull Member
If you look at the UK August YTD volumes, there’s been 80k new diesel’s registered versus 674k Petrol, 214k BEV, 100k PHEV and 170k HEV. The total with some kind of battery propulsion is 484k.

Nearly a million new cars in less than a year? Mind boggles.

Nearly a million new cars in less than a year? Mind boggles.

For 70 million people it’s not a lot – extrapolated out 2m would mean 1 new car for every 35 people. Assuming half of those are car owners the average lifespan of a car is 17 years..

Meanwhile in France and Germany EV sales are falling as a proportion of total sales. France has reduced the subsidy while Germany has all but eliminated it. EV plants on part time working or closing (Audi Belgium). My personal theory is that many of the people who wanted an EV have now got them and they’re keeping them. The Tesla taxi drivers for example, they’re keeping them for huge mileages whereas they changed their ICEs every year or two (comment from taxi driver in MTB club).

EV pricing is certainly hurting demand, especially with the depreciation meaning new buyers are mostly leasing and secondhand prices are still too high for many people to consider one. Not sure if it will naturally sort itself out or need government intervention again (or they just take the easy option and postpone banning ICE cars), my money’s on the latter.

As for heat pumps – as long as you have a home charger I don’t think it makes much difference really as you’ll pre-heat the cabin and battery. So unless you’re driving a long way (100+ miles), leaving the car parked up somewhere for a while (and not plugged in) then driving back I can’t see how it would make a difference.

The Zoe heat pump consumes 1kW for 3kW of heating and frankly it’s not enough on cold days so a ski jacket is in order. Driving around locally in winter I average 12kWh/100km without the heater and 13 with, so about 8% less range with the heat pump which would be 24% less range with an electrical resistance.

Whether you pre heat the car with a resistance or use the resistance when driving it’s an appaling waste of energy compared with a heat pump. And you need A/C anyhow so why not make it reversible and use it as a heater in Winter. Not having a heat pump heating is just cost cutting which will cost you money over the life of the car and place an unnecessary load on the grid..

I suppose you could say the same about indicators on a BMW ?

Ah. You’re one of those people. Noted.

You could argue that BMW are limiting customer choice.

Has anyone with an EV ever said “Do you know what I’d like? Less range” ?

Has anyone with an EV ever said “Do you know what I’d like? Less range” ?

Errrrrr, it’s (slowly) becoming a thing in some parts of the industry now.
Shorter range, lighter cars, more efficient vehicles.

But you need to have faster charging.
Will have to see how far the shift goes, the tech is there, just not the infrastructure (yet).

When I was looking at EVs last year I priced up a variety of cars including the VW iD3 and Tesla Model Y standard range. Once I’d added all the options to bring the iD3 up to the same spec as the Model Y it was more expensive. The iD3 is cheaper now but at the time it made no sense to buy it especially with the awful software.

Re low range – I bought the lowest range base Model Y, range 242 miles. My office is 110 miles round trip away so that works fine. I’ve been to north Wales and back in a day, about 450 miles, with no trouble and stopped the same amount of time as I’d do in a diesel car i.e. after about 3 hours. In my youth I’d have done north Wales to London in one hit but my bladder won’t allow that anymore. I wouldn’t pay extra for range over 250 miles now.

That’s the thing though; if your car was fine for your use in temperate times, but needed a boost to make the trip in winter it would affect it’s usefulness. Why should it not ‘just work’ whatever the conditions?

Maybe I’m shouting into the void, but I don’t see why the uninitiated can be caught out with an arcane spec choice that will affect it’s future marketability.

It should be standard fit on EV. IMHO. YMMV (literally)

while Germany has all but eliminated it.

Just because Germany looks modern it doesn’t mean that they aren’t hostage to exactly the same corruption that you see in banana republics. German car manufacturers have an enormous vested interest in fossil fuel vehicles and are putting significant pressure on their government to maintain it against competition from China / Korea / Tesla. Similar pressure applied by Shell etc who need to sell the fuel.

It’s taken years for VAG to come up with a platform that can rival Tesla for range, and it still has ropey infotainment. Taycan or Audi equivalent is nice but nearly 3x the price of the Tesla.

Ah. You’re one of those people. Noted.

Just pandering to the stereotype. I don’t get why people complain about things being standard or not, it’s like buying organic carrots and then asking why regular ones aren’t organic too, even though they’re cheaper.

Has anyone with an EV ever said “Do you know what I’d like? Less range” ?

You know what, give people the option and let them choose, why make all the people that want 200 mile range pay for 400? That must be £7-£10k of vehicle RRP right there.

I think everyone is finally coming to the conclusion that they don’t do 500 miles in one hit any more and the charging infrastructure is catching up so when you stop for a comfort break at the services you also top the car up at the same time. The mild change of routine 1% of the time is worth it for a cheaper, lighter, more efficient vehicle the other 99% of the time.

A very quick google states that the average car journey in the UK is 8.4 miles, a 10% reduction in your 250+mile range for non-heat pump vehicles still means that most people can go about their business and not even notice it.

While we’re at it, if a heat pump adds £1k cost to a vehicle (standard or option) then at 2p per mile that’s 50,000 miles of range before it’s paid for itself. Google says an average car does 7500 miles per year, let’s say half are cold and need heating (generous estimate) so even at a 15% reduction in range that costs you 563 miles in range per year so it’d take over 88 years for your pump to pay for itself.

But aha! you say, because I was out I had to top up all those lost miles at a superfast charger on the motorway and if costs 79p/kWh, well in that case, those lost 563 mile a year would cost you £127, so that’s still an almost 8 year pay back at 3.5 miles/kWh.

End of the day it’s all down to choice, have a heat pump or don’t, but it’s worth digging a bit deeper to really decide if it’s a deal breaker or not. Also, thanks for the conversation, I think all this has actually helped make my mind up that I’d probably be alright with a jumper, it’s not that cold down south.

I think everyone is finally coming to the conclusion that they don’t do 500 miles in one hit any more and the charging infrastructure is catching up so when you stop for a comfort break at the services you also top the car up at the same time. The mild change of routine 1% of the time is worth it for a cheaper, lighter, more efficient vehicle the other 99% of the time.

A very quick google states that the average car journey in the UK is 8.4 miles, a 10% reduction in your 250+mile range for non-heat pump vehicles still means that most people can go about their business and not even notice it.

I’ve probably said it before (several times, just on this thread), but the vast majority (95% or more) of car users *wildly* overestimate their usage, both actual and needed.
And that average journey is fairly consistent across the globe. Most people don’t go far.
TBH, a 100km range would cover probably 85% of global users daily needs, easily, 200km and you’d be looking at well over 90%. (FWIW with my 150km a day commute I’m in the top 0,5% of our monitored cars.)

I think there was a review that said an EV with 140 mile range (i.e nissan leaf) would cover 95% of people’s needs.

I’ll look for it

DrP

EDIT: “..the US Bureau of Transportation Statistics has long documented the average personal car clocks about 14,500 miles a year — or under 40 miles a day in a combination of commute, shopping, errands and pleasure trips. It may surprise many drivers to know that only 15% of those trips are commutes, with a much larger 45% being shorter runs for shopping and errands, and 27% for social trips or meeting friends.”

I seem to recall the 40 mile thing too.. of course, people WILL do longer journeys from time to time, but I guess the point is that we should ‘car up’ for our MAJORITY use, and deal with the minority situation when it occurs..

Well it appears that used prices are now coming down, to an extent that my interest in an EV has been piqued again.

We would be looking for a hatchback, about 180 mile range, with a budget of around £14k. Not too bothered about performance. What would be the current recommendation?

I think the answer to that question is usually a Kia niro or older Hyundai ioniq. Depends a bit on what size you need. For example you can pick up a Zoe with decent range and CCS charging fairly cheaply these days.

The challenge for EVs more generally though is that they are competing with ICE cars and most people don’t buy ICE cars based on what they actually need. If they did the roads wouldn’t be full of SUVs.

The need for/benefits of heat pumps are over stated. Pre heating the vehicle removes the need for heavy demand heating when you are just on battery, compared to the cost of lost efficiency they’re very expensive. I worked out it would be a few tens of thousands of winter miles I’d need to be driving to make it worth while. Yes in winter the range drops but on the ID4 it’s down from ~250 reliable miles (any terrain/road type/weather conditions and stopping before it gets worrying) to ~200 and to be honest that’s not a big enough issue to worry about for practical purposes.

We would be looking for a hatchback, about 180 mile range, with a budget of around £14k. Not too bothered about performance. What would be the current recommendation?

That would get you a 2 yr old top spec (GT Premium) Peugeot e208 if that is large enough for you. Love mine.

Has anyone with an EV ever said “Do you know what I’d like? Less range” ?

We’ve now had an electric Mini with approx 125 mile range (on a warm day, 100m on a cold one) for 3.5 years. Number of times we’ve realised that we can’t complete a journey without stopping for a recharge…..Once (trip to Anglesea).

125 miles is fine thanks, and if increasing the range to 250 is going to make the car heavier, less efficient and more expensive then we’re not interested.

Incidentally, we test drove the new electric Mini the other day. Hated it – terrible all-touchscreen controls and felt cumbersome in comparison to the older one.

Has anyone with an EV ever said “Do you know what I’d like? Less range” ?

Big batteries are expensive. Assuming something that can do 250-300 miles wltp, I’d rather the ability to reliably charge quickly than add range with a bigger battery. The ability to add 180miles in 15 minutes would effectively mean no disruption to driving times.

Has anyone with an EV ever said “Do you know what I’d like? Less range” ?

Almost everyone with an EV says ‘300 miles is plenty’ though.

What would be the current recommendation?

Still Ioniq Electric. Outstanding piece of kit for the money now.

Hmmm – this is very interesting.

Pretty set on an 2nd hand EV now. Northern Highlands and living a couple of hundred metres above sea level. 50 miles round trip commute for me and my wife would also use it for longer work trips pretty frequently- 140 miles or more, an overnight stay in far flung spots and then return (charger network exists, just not plentiful). 3 months a year you can expect -5 or below most mornings. Half my commute will be on untreated roads – winter tyres a must.

I seem to be a candidate for a big battery, twin motors/AWD and a heat pump. Kind of like a 2021 or later Tesla model 3. Apart from getting my head around owning a sedan (my budget won’t run to a model Y- barely runs to a ’21 model 3) that I’d never otherwise consider…..and Musk. Not ruling it totally out, just quite a bit to get my head around that I’d rather not.

Anything else an obvious contender?

Are there any convincing electric estates yet that are old enough to buy used?

Are there any convincing electric estates yet that are old enough to buy used?

I looked at the MG5. Does not fit my twin motor or heat pump above.

I sat in one a few weeks ago and it wouldn’t work for me sadly as I just know I couldn’t get on with the driving position. The preface lift version is very cheap now. The newer version – the MG salesman said he could sell me one (this was in August) for £22K if it was registered by the end of Sep, which to be honest is ridiculously cheap for what it is.

Kind of like a 2021 or later Tesla model 3.

Bear in mind that it is insurance group 50. I was contemplating one too but the increased insurance costs could easily wipe out the other savings if you are not careful.

It’s a problem with most twin-motor EVs though. I’m in a similar position. Maybe not quite as much snow in Aberdeenshire these days, but I’ve always bough AWD cars and still find them useful in winter. But a twin-motor EV always seems to mean bonkers acceleration and therefore high insurance costs. It also adds weight and reduces range (all else being equal).

A few people earlier in the thread (almost) had me convinced that modern cars (with all the traction control) combined with modern winter tyres mean that AWD isn’t as important as it used to be

If you are looking at the Tesla and don’t fancy the sedan then the Volvo EX30 might be worth a look. Similar single screen setup in a hatchback and you can have it with one motor or two. The Smart # 1 is on the same platform but quite a different car. I prefer it, but then I’m weird.

After months of agonising, I joined the EV club today ?.

A five hour journey up the accident clogged A9 is never going to spark joy, but doing it in this car was probably as nice a place to be as any.  It’s superb!

Well, apart from the climate control, which made me curse a few times..

I’m currently driving around the nc500 in my Ioniq. Just over 1000 miles completed at 4.9m/kWh . I’ve been charging at the CPS chargers spending my 45 minute limit bringing the car back up to 80%+. Yes it’s slow but fine for touring speeds.

The measly 100kw motor could of easily powered me up bealach na ba at 60mph but I took my time and did 59mph (winky eye).

Great car.

Had a chat with a mg4 owner who was traveling in the opposite direction. She was using the v2l for kettle boiling and occasionally sleeping in the car using the air conditioning over night. She said that pressing the central locking whilst inside the car kept the AC running overnight. She also mentioned one of her pals had an mg5 with a roof tent.

I wouldn’t mind the v2l capability and a roof rack but I don’t have it. I will be considering buying a 1kw battery capable of charging stuff and having that in my car for trips. It would replace my camping gas hob and provide 3 pin plug charging for other junk.

@convert…

What’s your budget…

AWD polestars with about 40k on the clock are about £19k ish now…

Kia ev6 does AWD versions too…

Basically, any dual motor car is AWD …

DrP

Thanks. @DrP

I reckon £19-21k is about my budget. More than I can really justify but a) I’m hoping the reduced running costs will balance things out and b) I qualify for an Energy Saving Trust interest free loan on a 2nd hand EV due to my rural (Scottish) location.

After months of agonising, I joined the EV club today ?.

Nice. That’s one more of us and one less of them ;-)

I seem to be a candidate for a big battery, twin motors/AWD and a heat pump

Lots, I’d have thought? But twin motors are rarer and probably more expensive.

I’m now considering a Volvo XC40/EX40, because it can tow enough and I think it’s the only EV currently available with self levelling suspension.. @mert do you know?

I just searched on Autotrader for 4WD under £22k and almost all of them seem to be Tesla, Audi or Jag (do not get the Jag) with a Volvo C40 thrown in.

I went to the recycling centre yesterday. Chap getting out of a VAG ICE next to me said ‘bane of my life those Teslas’. I asked how so.

Seems that used EVs just can’t be sold in the UK. Chap was saying that he had hundreds just gathering dust as no one bids on them in [trade] auctions. Some are cherry-picked by buyers from some African countries he said. Otherwise ‘no one wants them’.

Then some commentary on the difficulty some ‘German’ companies and UK manufacturers have in building small EVs at prices that compete with Chinese and Korean vehicles. Plus anecdotes on folks getting poor trade in values on Taycans for 911s & misgivings about EVs expressed by some European companies.

Then some anecdotes about how most everyone he knows who had a Tesla in the USA, or other EVs maybe, has given up on them. Several US folks changed to using Mazda hydrogen cars ‘2-3 minute fill up and then 450 miles of driving’. A Model X left on an airfield until its 12V battery goes flat won’t open the ‘gull wing’ [sic] doors even if there is enough to undo the central locking. And the AA and RAC won’t come out to Model Xs with flat batteries. NSS on the ‘doors won’t open with a flat battery’ fact.

And then the mention of some high efficiency (non-production) petrol engine that could do 230 mpg and the trope ‘it takes more energy to make the battery in an EV than to make a whole petrol car’ or something similar.

IRL he was a very pleasant and genuine sounding chap with what seemed a perverse problem given discussion of prices on here. My inquiries didn’t elicit much extra insight. Though he did say that if I could get to a trade auction I might snap myself up a bargain. If only, I fancy a Model X ludicrous just to have had all the (regular) Teslas. If it could be gotten for a fiver, even better!

Afterwards I wondered about this airfield full of EVs. Mostly Teslas, but also Porsche and others. Were folks not bidding because an EV sold is a service contract not sold? Dealer inertia? Was it to keep supply low and used prices high? Was it because folks just don’t have the cash to buy cars? A function of the incentives for buying a new car like latest tech, 0% finance, VOC poisoning/smell, etc? A reflection of weak economic performance and low activity? A ‘big oil’ tactic to make EVs unappealing?

Seems odd to me. There are plenty of Teslas on sale from dealers so clearly someone is bidding and buying. If they are being sold at auction then a suitable price should be found unless people are setting an unrealistic reserve. Tesla did undermine their own used market by slashing new prices.

But overall it does sound like bullshit.

We would be looking for a hatchback, about 180 mile range, with a budget of around £14k.

I decided to go electric this year after my previous car was written off, and bought an MG4, because they seemed to have universally good reviews and were cheaper than any of the equivalents. I paid a bit more for a 6 month old car, but there are some older ones on sale within your budget.

I’m very pleased with the car. It gets from A to B without bothering me at all, which is my primary requirement. I can lay a bike in the back with the seats down. I’m not a fan of touch screens, but that’s just how manufacturers cut costs these days, and there are a couple of quirks in the software controls, but honestly nothing that really causes me a problem. Claimed mileage is 220 in ideal conditions, but I think it’s probably under 200 in real life. No regrets with my purchase.

MG also give a seven year warranty (which stays with the car for second hand sales).