The Electric Car Thread

150kW for the Polestar apparently. That’s 3x the rate of my car,

Bear in mind, even if you can find a 150kW charger you don’t get that 150kW for long

We own an EV with no home charging and it’s fine for us. You really want to be within a short walk of some fast chargers, we are about 200 meters away from a pair of 7kw units, so it just gets dumped on there once or twice a week and we wonder over to get it before bed. Also twinned with a bit of rapid charging when needed, don’t forget you don’t actually have to sit in your car while it’s charging, a 10-80% charge for us is enough time for a run or a nice walk.

And if you are using it for going riding a lot of the places we go you can leave it on a 7kw while you ride, it’s even free in Peebles for now 😂

So you just find a way to work it into your life without sitting around waiting for it.

Just realised how things have changed. I’m looking at low emission cars for the family that would be a good caravan tow car, and one of the genuinely attractive options has a 0-60 time of under 5 seconds. Performance that rivals supercars from when I was a kid.

Bonkers

EDIT a Ferrari Testarossa did 0-62 in 5.8s. The Polestar 2 can do it in 4.5!

Bear in mind that the Model 3 charging speed is capped to about 100kW in the UK because of the LG batteries, so the Polestar is probably comparable.

Only on the Standard Range. The Long Range and the Performance will charge at up to 250kW.

Nssian, I got about 230+ miles in winter with my Soul and that was with the heater on. I’d be **** if i’m driving a cold car.

The Long Range and the Performance will charge at up to 250kW.

I thought all the LG batteries are trickle-charging at 100kW at the moment?

The Polestar 2 is slightly less efficient kW/mile than other offerings, but the upside is a more enjoyable driving experience. I got 230 miles from ours last weekend on mixed roads and motorway, with 15% remaining, but it was a warm day which helps the batteries. In 10 degrees or less you’d be lucky to get 200 miles out of it, particularly if it’s got the Performance Pack (which ours has, it loses about 10% range compared to standard).

Plenty of room in the back for the bike though!

Public charging is still hit-and-miss outside of the Tesla ecosystem, but becoming better. I have managed 150kW at ionity and Eon, but as per the graph above, it tails off once over about 30%, but it’s still fast and you’ll be up to 80% before you’ve finished your lunch.

Bear in mind that the Model 3 charging speed is capped to about 100kW in the UK because of the LG batteries,

I’ve got a 2019 SR+ and have got over 100kw at ionity and Tesla Superchargers (depending where it is on the curve), so I’m curious to know where your info is from?.

Bear in mind that the Model 3 charging speed is capped to about 100kW in the UK because of the LG batteries, so the Polestar is probably comparable.

Bensales
Only on the Standard Range. The Long Range and the Performance will charge at up to 250kW.

My understanding
Standard range plus = 170kw max charge speed
Long range = 190kw max charge speed
Performance = 250kw max charge speed
(May differ between older and face lift versions)

@uponthedowns The consumption to efficiency calc for Tesla to most other EVs is 1000 over the Wh/mile figure. I don’t like the Tesla’s consumption figure as I’m hardwired through a couple of decades of ICE driving to think “bigger number better” for efficiency. But I agree, 3.57 is pretty crappy for the best efficiency I achieve with no roof bars.

@luket yes a lot of the time that is with the bars and a couple of Thule 598s up top and sometimes actual bikes when I manage to get my fat arse out on the trails. I was expecting more from the model 3 TBH.. like you say it’s a smaller/lighter package than the S with newer tech.

@Flaperon our Model 3 Performance has definitely seen charging in excess of 100kW at the superchargers. It was about 125kW and 500 miles per hours in a low SoC.

My previously reported battery deg seems to have corrected itself with a few deep discharges and long runs.. it’s regularly showing 270miles at 90% and 300miles at 100% which is within a couple of miles of what it was at new 🙂

Not that I ever get those figures.. would have to drive at 20mph constantly with ALL aux systems off!

@nickewen I’m curious that there isn’t a much bigger difference between our cars. 360 miles is quoted range on mine (I think that’s therefore WLTP?) which, assuming that’s using exactly 100kWh which it probably isn’t quite, equates to 278Wh/mile. In mine this is surprisingly achievable. Cruise at 70 on the flat (summer) would probably do it. Local journeys for me tend to have the “last 30 miles” average display similar. I’ve never done it over a whole charge but then I haven’t tried to. I have done it over about half of one though. Whole life average according to the trip meter on mine is 340 so far in a bit less than 2 years. Never fitted a rack or roof bars though.

@B.A.nana

@luket my wife drives it more than me since I’ve been WFH exclusively for over a year, so it could be as simple as her driving style.. 😬

Plus the fact she has the regen set to the lower level and mine the higher on our driver profiles.

I’m going to be doing the Newcastle/Glasgow trip again (without bars/racks) in a few days and see what the craic is. I’ll report back on conditions, driving style, Wh/mile, etc. on here.

The M3 Performance is a great car but if I get another M3 when this goes back it’ll be the LR for sure. Can’t get a towbar on mine and I’d like the extra miles from that model. And it’s a bit cheaper.

I strongly suspect that having a fairly high regen power on/available is a near necessity for overall good consumption figures. Just maintaining constant speed down a hill in mine sends the needle most of the way round. And I think the lower availability of regen in shorter winter journeys is one of the main reasons, if not the overriding reason, for the increased consumption that everyone reports for such journeys. I can use cabin heating very little and don’t think that makes much difference.

Regen doesn’t really do that much. Our car has a little vague that goes up when you slow down and resets when you get back on the accelerator so you can see how many miles each regen event creates. The gauge only goes up to 0.5 and it takes a pretty decent sized hill to get it up to 0.5. slowing from motorway speeds as you take your exit only puts about 0.25 back in.

Tell you what mind, regen effectiveness aside driving an ICE hire car recently was effin horrible! Near enough brand new Ford Ecosport plastic SUV thing.. something buzzy and turbocharged resembling a petrol engine under the bonnet, 6 speed manual, brakes that do nothing for a good amount of the initial travel before attempting to throw you through the windscreen, steering so vague it’s a safety issue, the list goes on.

Mind you, the AC in an ICE car is shit hot (well cold) compared to an EV (well my M3 anyway).

6 speed manual

Ugh how awful, are you ok? How’s your left arm?

The AC in the Ioniq is decent I must say, especially in normal mode rather than eco. But a lot of that has to do with vent placement and management, which is ok, however it doesn’t automatically put recirculation on when the outside temps are high .

6 speed manual,

Its amazing that in the 21st Century most drivers still change gear manually using two bits of bent metal pushed through the floor of the car.

Regen doesn’t really do that much.

I disagree. One thing I notice when going back to drive an ICE, especially an automatic is how much I use the brakes compared to an EV. Also in an EV you can get almost the same efficiency driving a hilly route than a flat route because of the regen. Totally unlike ICE EV’s are at their most efficient around towns again due to regen.

Mind you, the AC in an ICE car is shit hot (well cold) compared to an EV

AC in Hyundai and Kia EVs is what you would expect in an ICE

Air Con in the Zoé is fine, the heater just about adequate.

Dropping down the Col d’Aubisque from 1360m to 500m adds enough to the battery to cover the next 35km down to 180m if the air temperature is over 15°C. When the battery is at optimum tempertaure the regen is 48kW before the service brakes start working which means they aren’t needed on the whole journey down.

Also in an EV you can get almost the same efficiency driving a hilly route than a flat route because of the regen.

I don’t think that’s for the reasons you think.

ICEs have barrow usable torque bands. Also, they have internal friction. So you need low gears to accelerate and drive slowly meaning that the engine is turning faster than it needs to at lower speeds. And when run at low load, a 0etrol engine particularly losses energy sucking air through the tiny hole in the throttle. None of this apples to EVs.

Regen only recovers about 25% of the kinetic energy that you put in as electrical energy. And given that most of the work in an extra-urban drive goes in to overcoming air resistance the amount available for regen isn’t that big. My Prius would tell you how much energy was recovered over time, and on hilly routes it would be at most 150 Wh in 5 mins if that 5 mins included a big downhill. That’s about 3/4 of a mile in my car which is comparable to what I observed on Sunday in the Ioniq. The range went up by 1 mile a out 2/3 of the way down the big hill.

I’d guess in the Prius about 50Wh per 5 mins would be typical. So 600Wh an hour. If I can drive for 2 hours on a charge that’s 1.2kWh out of the 25 or so kWh I’d have used up. So it’s there, but it’s not huge.

Regen only recovers about 25% of the kinetic energy that you put in as electrical energy

Much higher than that Molgrips, I’ve saw some stuff on the orignal Zoé that said that recovery went from 0% below about 10kmh (because it desn’t work at all at very low speed) to 70% at higher speeds.

I was just about to say that this 25% doesn’t seem to make sense. Slowing 2 tones of machine from 60mph to a standstill using nothing but electromagnetic force dragged from the rear axle. that energy must go somewhere. some will be lost to head, some to friction, some to the efficiency of the process, but it can’t be that much loss or it simply wouldn’t work.

I think you’re confusing energy recover vs energy used as a mark of efficiency. We’re only talking about how much kinetic energy is in the vehicle at the point the regen cycle beings to decelerate and what percentage of that energy can be recovered.

Kinetic energy lost to braking is only around 8-10% of the energy used by the vehicle. So if 10% of your 200 mile range would normally be lost to braking, you can expect to recover 12-15 miles of range using regen.

Slowing 2 tones of machine from 60mph to a standstill using nothing but electromagnetic force dragged from the rear axle. that energy must go somewhere. some will be lost to head, some to friction, some to the efficiency of the process, but it can’t be that much loss or it simply wouldn’t work.

The retarding force comes from the current flowing in the motor. The generator isn’t 100% efficient, the cabling isn’t, and battery charging also isn’t 100% efficient. The estimate I’d read for the Prius many years ago was for the full battery-to-battery journey for the power – meaning that if you were to use 100% of the battery going up a hill and then you braked back down your SoC would only go up to 25%.

I admit that my figures might be wrong as times have changed, but as said I don’t see large amounts of range going into the battery when braking. Most of the time when driving normally the little regen meter shows maybe 1/8 of a mile of recovered range if I’m driving down a hill and stopping.

Kinetic energy lost to braking is only around 8-10% of the energy used by the vehicle. So if 10% of your 200 mile range would normally be lost to braking, you can expect to recover 12-15 miles of range using regen.

That’s not far off my estimate, is it? Those numbers would be 6-7%. Like I said it’s there, but it’s not massive.

I’m sure Edukator could do an experiment. Drive up a big steady hill, enough to use a significant charge percentage, then drive back down at the same speed. Then drive the same distance as the uphill but on the flat, and measure the energy loss. We should then be able to work out how much is lost in the conversion from kWh to gravitational potential energy then back again.

I have played with the Zoé up and down various big hills of around 1000m +/-. But the battery capacity display isn’t accurate enough to do reliable calculations and it’s very hard to drive up and down in exactly the same style.

The instant power display can be used. It shows 6-7kW at 70kmh on the flat so that gives you a base for wind and rolling resistance which you deduct from the instant power to get the energy going to potential energy on the way up. On the way down you add 6-7kW to the energy recovery displayed to get total energy recovery. the difference between the potential energy being stored on the way up and the total energy recovered on the way down is what you’ve lost in generator inefficiency.

I did work it out but I can’t remember the numbers well enough to publish them here. They were good. Most of the energy was being recovered and most of it was going into the battery, and hopefully most of that ended up as charge. I’ll have another go on the straight section of the Aubisque when I go up next.

You come to Norway and I’ll show you some regen 😉 Case example, skiing in the winter. Charge at bottom of BIG hill, battery drop 80-35% in 30kmish. On the way back, and now the battery has dropped to -10,-15, battery drops 35-25% at most. On the way down it’s regen all the way
Bjorn Nyland has made the observation that he thinks he gets better efficiency on a slightly rolling road compared to dead flat, but that doesn’t really make sense to me

The regenerative breaking can be very effective. I’ve posted this video before, the first 2 minutes gives you can idea.  It’s on a mountain but gives an idea.

Regen is better than you think molgrips

Dump truck never has to be recharged

Case example, skiing in the winter. Charge at bottom of BIG hill, battery drop 80-35% in 30kmish. On the way back, and now the battery has dropped to -10,-15, battery drops 35-25% at most. On the way down it’s regen all the way

Not sure I follow. You go from 80 to 35 on the way up, and 35 to 25 on the way down? Surely it should be going UP on the way down a big hill?

Ok so that Audi is better than I’d expected, if they descended 2500m in a car with 2740kg ish assuming two 70kg people that’s about 67MJ of potential energy or about 18kWh. They regained 10kWh so it’s about 55% efficient in terms of converting gravitational potential energy into battery charge.

But of course, there are also inefficiencies on the way up too. They will have used more than 18kWh of energy getting up the hill in the first place – but the question is – how much? If it’s approaching 50% then my figures would still be ball-park.

Remember, I’m talking about taking energy out of the battery, converting it into kinetic or potential energy, then using regen to convert it back. The whole round trip was calculated to be about 25% efficient all those years ago. Not just the regen part.

You’re forgetting that even downhill there is wind resistance and rolling resistance, Molgrips. So a part of those 18KWh will be used overcoming those, the regen braking can only recover what’s left over.

My calculation took that into account based on the energy needed to overcome wind resistance and rolling resistance on the flat. Much more than 55% but I don’t want to post half remembered numbers.

In Summer it doesn’t matter what the battery level is when I get to the ski resort 55km away and 1200m higher because the regen will get me home. In Winter with a freezing battery regen isn’t as good and I fall about 10-15km short, the heater doesn’t help either.

You’re forgetting that even downhill there is wind resistance and rolling resistance, Molgrips.

No not really, it’s factored in. That’s why the experiment I suggested also included a flat journey at the same speed.

Looking at getting a 2nd hand Zoe, does anyone know real life range for both the 22kwh and 41kwh versions? Anything to look for or look out for when looking at them, and roughly how much to buy out the battery lease?

Many thanks

Not sure whether this has been done but I found this video interesting. It sounds like there might be a substantial and pretty low environmental impact source of lithium in Cornwall.

Fully charged

Also Fully Charged generally – I find it very watchable. Made like proper telly and I think the presenters are very good, especially Helen.

Disclaimer – there’s little in here about either the quantity available or the commercial viability of the whole process to making batteries with it. I guess it’s too early to say/commercially sensitive/whatever.

Regarding REGEN:

Most of the passcar BEVs ive tested sit at between 68 and 74% efficiency of the regen, when considering just the energy flowing into and out of the vehicles mass at speed (ie the Kinetic Energy).

This does not include the energy flow into, and being irrecoverably lost too, drag at the same time.

Therefor the percentage you can recapture is entire due to how dynamic your journey is.

Take an immaginary constant speed motorway journey, where we accelerate from rest straight down the slip road to 70mph, drive 70 miles at that fixed speed (ie for 1 hour), then leave the motorway, using regen to come to a stop at the end of the exit slip road.

The regen will have recaptured lets say 70% of the energy “loaded into” and “stored by” the vehicles mass at speed over that journey, but because we only accelerated and deccelerated once, the total KE exchange will be almost totally lost in the huge amount of energy we have continously expended against the drag of doing 70 mph for an hour.

For a typical EV, weighing say 1,800 kg and returning say 3.3 ml/kWh at 70 mph, that means:

KE at 70 mph (31m/s for 1.8 tonnes) = 0.86 MJ = 0.24 kWh

total drag energy (3.3 ml/kWh over 70 miles) = 21 kWh

At 70% regen recovery, we’d get back 0.17 kWh as we regen up the off ramp.

So our ratio of recovered energy to drag is tiny, 0.17 kWh / 21 kWh = 0.8%

The opposite case is in town. Low average speed means low average drag and plenty of stop/starting due to traffic features and high traffic density means lots of speed change dynamics. Here, the recovered energy could, ime, get as high as 25 to 30 % of the consumed total energy.

So in summary, any energy balance numbers you see on the display are simply an indicator of the sort of driving conditions at which you are operating your car, and nothing really much to do with the efficiency of the system to recover KE.

(BTW to get these figures we run extremely controlled tests of either cars on chassis rolls (which obvuously includes tyre losses) or of the bare powertrain attached to dyno motors that simulate the roadload, and measure everything! Typically we spend up to 3 months simply instrumenting a test vehicle or powertrain and setting up the test facility, and tests will be repeated over and over until we get a statistically valid result.)

apropos of nothing, but Helen Czer has possibly one of the nicest pair of legs on the telly!

I’ve been lucky enough to meet and talk/discuss with her at length on a couple of occasions now for various ends and she is, frankly, wonderful! 🙂

Helen Czer has possibly one of the nicest pair of legs on the telly!

Careful, that may not go down well here given recent bans handed out on certain other threads…

Karnali: we had a Zoe 2015 reg (21kwh). Summer distance when new was 90 odd? Mixed driving. Winter range dropped to 57 in year two.

Sorry to hijack this thread – I have an Etron, I’ve just moved onto a tariff with EDF that gives cheap charging Midnight-0500hrs. I’ve tried setting the charge timer in the car but it seems to make no difference, I’ve plugged it in anticipating no charge until MN but its started straight away…any ideas what I’m doing wrong?

A Guess: Is there enough time within your tarrif window to charge the battery with the charger power you have connected.

If you have a 7kW charger, and need say 63 kWh, this clearly will take at least 9 hours. If your tarrif window is say just 8 hours, the car will probably start charging immediately to ensure the battery is fully charged

Well to avoid calls of sexism against my behalf, i will also say that Robert ( llewellyn) from Fully charge also has a lovely pair of legs too……….

(and he is also a lovely chap to converse with 🙂