Terrorism

The other ‘hotspot’ that badly needs covering and segregation applying is our own jails, no amount of illegal bad stuff occurring in the name of the prophet there I imagine.

outofbreath – Member

Let’s say they didn’t but in future they thoroughly investigate every report. They find he’s a self confessed Islamist. They find a kitchen cupboard with knives. They find he has a car.

He’s commited no offence.

There were 3 of them, so you’re not looking for a knife or a car, you’re looking for planning and interaction. The attack wasn’t the first offence.

I am amazed how many people have an issue with state snooping. Surely, if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear.

Do you want to give me your address? Might as well post it here, you’ve nothing to hide. Then I’ll pop round and install a public webcam in your bedroom. What are you afraid of?

chestercopperpot – Member

Further high level military action is inevitable now public support has been firmed up.

erm have we learned nothing from the past 30 odd years of bombing the shit out of the middle east?

You know, I am hearing the shouts of “something must be done”, “enough is enough”.

I agree.

However, from the Maybot, to those ex-SAS blokes, Tommy Robinson, Farage and all the rest, no-one has actually come up with anything legal, practical or useful.

I am not a security expert. It’s not my job to work out what “something” is.

Who’s job is it and what’s something?

There were 3 of them, so you’re not looking for a knife or a car, you’re looking for planning and interaction. The attack wasn’t the first offence.

Short of having a microphone in the room recording them discussing and planning the attack, how do you propose identifying and prosecuting such an alleged offence?

All I’m hearing here so far is that somehow ‘investigating’ people more would have been some sort of panacea that would have prevented them doing an attack – despite the fact that they had already been identified and investigated.

Sooner or later you either need to accept that either we accept that these attacks cannot be prevented, or we start locking people up on the basis of suspicion and risk despite them having not *yet* actually done anything provably illegal under current law.

Does the risk to society outweigh the personal freedoms?

Short of having a microphone in the room recording them discussing and planning the attack,

well following up from a tip off to the terrorisnm hotline and further investigation that sounds like a plan in itself

doesnt involve more armed coppers tho, sorry

gobuchul – Member
You know, I am hearing the shouts of “something must be done”, “enough is enough”.

I agree.

However, from the Maybot, to those ex-SAS blokes, Tommy Robinson, Farage and all the rest, no-one has actually come up with anything legal, practical or useful.

I am not a security expert. It’s not my job to work out what “something” is.

Who’s job is it and what’s something?

The lefties liberals might complain but they too cannot do much at all, they are very good at complaining though.

Basically whatever ways the government come up with there will be people complaining.

However, at least the police are armed now which is good. Less talk. 🙂

well following up from a tip off to the terrorisnm hotline and further investigation that sounds like a plan in itself

that requires having the police to do the further investigation. Apparently, that’s not on the cards :-/

Rachel

Another aspect is giving all that capability to the state also hopes they remain competent in protecting (they also including the almost inevitable private sector contractors).
The recent wannacry problems show the flaws in this.

Indeed. We lost half of the NHS for a week thanks to hacking tools created by the NSA getting out into the wide world (and that’s actually the public Internet, not some corner of the Dark Web). This has been quietly brushed under the carpet, meanwhile Theresa May wants to ban irreversable encryption which even by the government’s own high standards is absolutely barking.

Practicalities aside (online banking, anyone?), the technology and the knowledge is in the public domain I could knock up a script to generate RSA keys in a few minutes and I’m not a programmer. You may as well try to ban French. (Or more accurately I suppose, maths.)

Tell me more about this banning of French – you have me interested…

that requires having the police to do the further investigation. Apparently, that’s not on the cards :-/

We’ve got more people on watch lists than we have watchers, and the police has had 20,000 job cuts. To all those who want “something to be done,” it’s really not very hard at all to see where the root cause of problem lies. If you reduce security resources then you are less secure, QED.

We’ve got more people on watch lists than we have watchers

And again – how does ‘watching’ them stop an attack?

Unless and until you are willing to lock them up *before* they break the law, then that’s all you are doing, watching.

allthegear – Member
that requires having the police to do the further investigation. Apparently, that’s not on the cards :-/

Rachel

It’s only practical when they are at last minute planning otherwise it’s impractical.

Also only if you are watching the right people …

Do you want to give me your address? Might as well post it here, you’ve nothing to hide. Then I’ll pop round and install a public webcam in your bedroom. What are you afraid of?

I was going to post, but I have lost the will to live on this subject.

However, in answer to your question. I would have no issue with the authorities trawling through any aspect of my life as I have nothing to hide 🙂

ninfan – Member

Does the risk to society outweigh the personal freedoms?No.

And again – how does ‘watching’ them stop an attack?

You know that people have now come forward and said that Salman Abedi’s flat smelt of chemicals don’t you?
I’m not claiming to know all the answers, but it’s clear that clues were there.

Also – the home office haven’t released information about how these other terror attacks have been thwarted, so it’s very difficult to assess whether that could be enhansed through increased manpower/observation/etc.

And again – how does ‘watching’ them stop an attack?

I don’t know exactly, as I don’t work for MI5 / SIS / the police. But for every terrorist plot that succeeds ten are foiled, so they’re demonstrably doing something right.

I would have no issue with the authorities trawling through any aspect of my life as I have nothing to hide

Remember the Investigatory Powers Bill (the so-called Snooper’s Charter), where “the authorities” can access your personal data from ISPs? Here’s a list of those authorities:

Metropolitan police force
City of London police force
Police forces maintained under section 2 of the Police Act 1996
Police Service of Scotland
Police Service of Northern Ireland
British Transport Police
Ministry of Defence Police
Royal Navy Police
Royal Military Police
Royal Air Force Police
Security Service
Secret Intelligence Service
GCHQ
Ministry of Defence
Department of Health
Home Office
Ministry of Justice
National Crime Agency
HM Revenue & Customs
Department for Transport
Department for Work and Pensions
NHS trusts and foundation trusts in England that provide ambulance services
Common Services Agency for the Scottish Health Service
Competition and Markets Authority
Criminal Cases Review Commission
Department for Communities in Northern Ireland
Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland
Department of Justice in Northern Ireland
Financial Conduct Authority
Fire and rescue authorities under the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004
Food Standards Agency
Food Standards Scotland
Gambling Commission
Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority
Health and Safety Executive
Independent Police Complaints Commissioner
Information Commissioner
NHS Business Services Authority
Northern Ireland Ambulance Service Health and Social Care Trust
Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service Board
Northern Ireland Health and Social Care Regional Business Services Organisation
Office of Communications
Office of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland
Police Investigations and Review Commissioner
Scottish Ambulance Service Board
Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission
Serious Fraud Office
Welsh Ambulance Services National Health Service Trust

When’s it convenient for me to pop round with that webcam? Are you free on Wednesday?

we start locking people up on the basis of suspicion and risk despite them having not *yet* actually done anything provably illegal under current law.

When are you going to realise internment doesn’t fing work?!

Regarding the question of whether watching them is enough or not, probably not, so under current circumstance… well tbh you just have to accept that these things will have every now and again. Whether people like it or not, there is some form of link to the shit happening in the middle east.. It’s of no co-incidence that the worse the ME gets, the more of these types of attacks there are.

There’s also an awful lot of talk about radicalisation, and i don’t know how you’d go about it, internment certainly isn’t the answer. But perhaps there should be a bit more than just watching people, some sort of engagement and de-radicalisation programme.

That concept is wide open for discussion as i don’t have the answers. I know it’ll never get anywhere while it’s framed in the context of good and evil however. The first step to solving a problem is understanding the problem. Biggest thing I can see is that no-one really understands. The conversation is too one sided. Lets start hearing the excuses and counter them publicly.

erm have we learned nothing from the past 30 odd years of bombing the shit out of the middle east?

@ Kimbers – Nope not as long as our economies run on oil, which they still for the most part do.

Cougar – Moderator
When’s it convenient for me to pop round with that webcam? Are you free on Wednesday?

Those are government bodies or related institutions while you are acting as individual. 🙄

edit: Oh ya … why webcam? 😆

Those are government bodies or related institutions

Some of which have been hacked recently, yes?

RichPenny – Member

Those are government bodies or related institutions

Some of which have been hacked recently, yes? [/quote]
Ya, but you are not the only one that gets the hassle if you happen to be on their database coz everyone on their database gets it. 🙄

All this ridiculous talk of internment, you’d think the conspiracy laws don’t exist. Trouble is doing people for conspiracy takes up a huge amount of resources to collect the evidence. Funny that they can fund undercover police and surveillance for environmental activists but not not terror suspects who’ve been on the telly on a programme called ‘The jihadis next door’.

edit: Oh ya … why webcam?

Because he’s got nothing to hide, so why not?

That concept is wide open for discussion as i don’t have the answers.

For all our conjecture, I expect no-one does. Otherwise, y’know, we’d have done it by now.

Cougar – Moderator

edit: Oh ya … why webcam?

Because he’s got nothing to hide, so why not? [/quote]So what are you going to film? The person in shower or something else … ? 😆

Anything I like, apparently.

Cougar – Moderator
Anything I like, apparently.

hmmmm … sometimes I do wonder … some of you … 😆

Terror in Britain – What did the Prime Minister Know.

John Pilger tells it straight.

Terror in Britain: What Did The Prime Minister Know?

I would have no issue with the authorities trawling through any aspect of my life as I have nothing to hide

I pity you 😉

I find the views of Maajid Nawaz and his radio show on LBC good listening, and he has more experience of the issues here than probably anyone.

This was a quite shocking call a few weeks ago and highlights the extent of extremism in this country :

Maajid Talks To Man Who Wanted To Assassinate Him[/url]

the whole interview is in the second video, not the first snippet.

Maajid Nawaz: Stop Saying Violence Has Nothing To Do With Islam[/url]

Why Maajid Nawaz Refuses To Praise Didsbury Mosque For Speaking Out Against Isis[/url]

Maajid Nawaz’s Four-Point Plan To Defeat Islamist Terrorists[/url]

And something of interest about Saudi on Clive Bulls show[/url]

When’s it convenient for me to pop round with that webcam? Are you free on Wednesday?

Starting to get worried now. Do you have a fetish for watching middle aged men strutting around in their underpants 😯

Maybe that explains your reluctance to state snooping?

ninfan – Member

Short of having a microphone in the room recording them discussing and planning the attack, how do you propose identifying and prosecuting such an alleged offence?

You seem to know a lot about this case. Where was this room? When did the one conversation they had happen? Get onto the CPS, they’ll want to hear from you.

While you’re talking to them, ask them about all of the succesful investigations and prosecutions they’ve completed that you don’t think are possible.

Someone a few pages back made a reference to “Minority Report” with regards to predicting crimes before they happen and it got me thinking about a story I had read regarding Facebook.
I think this is the article.

According to the article Facebook had revealed to advertisers that “it” can determine in real time a persons mood and determine whether young people were stressed, vulnerable etc so as to better target say, cosmetics to young girls.

In a similar article (on Dailymail.co.uk) Facebook was inadvertently outing gay users, or at least shown to be capable of determining a person’s sexuality when they themselves hadn’t decided to make it public. It makes me wonder if at some point in the near future algorithms on Twitter, Facebook and various other platforms could be able to determine whether someone with Islamist tendencies might be contemplating or getting ready to initiate an attack.

Ya, but you are not the only one that gets the hassle if you happen to be on their database coz everyone on their database gets it.

Does not help chewkw explain to his wife why he has a login to goatporn.com, just because a dozy civil servant left a laptop on the train.

Seeing Minority Report mentioned reminded me of this article that mentioned that Tobago wanted use an analytics platform analysing online data and phonecalls to identify pre-crime
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

greentricky

Seeing Minority Report mentioned reminded me of this article that mentioned that Tobago wanted use an analytics platform analysing online data and phonecalls to identify pre-crime

It’s only a matter of time. However, such technologies will probably just follow the money, so they’ll be used to sell you soft drinks or make you gamble as opposed to stop crime.

Oops, wrong thread!