Terrorism

Who here thinks the brits in spain are wandering around perfectly integrated and indistinguishable from the local populace?

Well, I probably did get a bit more burnt than my clubmates this weekend during the race, but at the same time I think I’m fairly integrated. So to answer the question: yes and no.

Turns out one of the trio was reported by a neighbour recently. The intelligence people are appearing increasingly incompetent. Maybe good old fashioned men on the ground info gathering and not blanket surveillance should be a top priority. More wheat less chaff.

I have no clue what you are going on about El-bent.

How comes I’m not surprised at this?

@MG
I think the time for your kind of silliness has past.

Not being silly. If you don’t understand my question then say so, don’t insult.

I wanted to know if wilburt was suggesting Muslims don’t integrate? Or singling out some sub-set of Muslims for not integrating? The former is manifestly not true, the latter is a pointlessly self-referential – of course people who don’t integrate don’t integrate, by definition. There will always be immigrants who don’t integrate, because some of them are simply shy.

The intelligence people are appearing increasingly incompetent.

Or just under-resourced?

Apparently five other potential attacks have been foiled in the last ten weeks.
I think the intelligence services are simply overwhelmed.
And what do you then do with the suspect? You need fairly firm evidence to put them in jail, where they would just end up radicalising other people.
Perhaps send them to Downing St for a telling off by the bloody difficult woman, after she has told off Google and Facebook.

No it’s not. That’s nonsense*. The average “white” British person has little or no blame or responsibility for people conspiring to go on a murderous rampage in the name of Allah.

You misinterpreted what I meant. I meant the current level of integration or lack there of is as much the responsibility of the white British as it is the Muslim immigrants (or two or three generations standing).

Maybe good old fashioned men on the ground info gathering and not blanket surveillance should be a top priority.

That’s what this guy says[/url]

I can tell you very definitely that Islam discourages integration.

Denying that is silly.

The intelligence people are appearing increasingly incompetent.

Or just swamped with information keeping an eye on 20,000 plus people? And just throwing money and staff at the problem means you have less experienced people trying to do the same impossible task.

except a tiny minority of one group of course

I think you’ll find

I’m not talking about the ones who kill people but the ones who reject western values.

They are not a tiny minority and should be stopped.

I can tell you very definitely that Islam discourages integration

Can you go into a bit more detail?

Manchester is presently delivering a massive two fingers to terrorism! 🙂

Pop down to Halifax, Dewsbury, Rochdale etc with your daughter or wife.
Have a walk around so how it works out for them.

I’m not talking about the ones who kill people but the ones who reject western values.

They are not a tiny minority and should be stopped.

This group always get mentioned, yet despite living, working and close friendships with people who follow Islam – they seem a very small, perhaps tiny minority. This, in a major city with a large Muslim population – Birmingham.

I don’t just associate with male Muslims but Muslim women and whole families too. Not just professional or middle class Muslims either l, but those from Sparkhill, Ward End, Sparkbrook etc. So surely they cannot be a large group?

What would I do,
1. Close all faith schools, secular schools only from now on with a varied mix of children from all races.
2. No single race/religion ‘ghettos’ diversity is needed.
3. Discourage/ban the wearing of the burka, it’s just a control garment forced onto women.
4. Outlaw Halal slaughter, again religion has no place in the food chain.
Integration is the only way forward, and as this is the UK then races and religions have to integrate into OUR way of life not the other way round. If we could get the kids playing together from an early age this would all be cleared up in a matter of a few years.

secular education system you say? Like France? How well is that working out for them? give me a break, your rhetoric is rooted in prejudice, whilst you seek a solution however noble that is, further persecution is not the answer.

Turns out one of the trio was reported by a neighbour recently. The intelligence people are appearing increasingly incompetent. Maybe good old fashioned men on the ground info gathering and not blanket surveillance should be a top priority. More wheat less chaff.

Without going into specifics, we live in a societal time when there has been a huge upswing against intelligence gathering and ‘secrets’. Wiki leaks, Snowden etc have moved the dial on public tolerance of being surveilled. However, the public has an expectation of safety which does sadly require intelligence operations and secrecy. A delicate balance. I work in this area and all I will say is for every successful attack there will have been myriads of foiled ones which you will never hear about. I do think things need to change but covert comms channels make it incredibly difficult to monitor, WhatsApp I’m looking at you. Tough times for sure. What I’m sure of is they aren’t incompetent.

If we could get the kids playing together from an early age this would all be cleared up in a matter of a few years.

They do, I was walking through Birmingham the other day and there was half a dozen kids, average age of 6, in a variety of skin colours and speaking brummie with a variety of accents running around and playing happily together.

The problem is, as they grow up the media and their older peers or parents will teach them that there accents and skins makes them different. Racism and fear of other cultures is taught. Simple as, it’s nurture not nature.

reject western values

What does that even mean? Just over 50% of those who voted last June did that (or my perception of those value). I would probably find this QT lot equally contemptible as those who committed the atrocities in London and Manchester – can we intern them aswell?

Did you not learn from the last time for arguing on a thread where respect should be shown? See you in 2 weeks.

If only the numbers of police hadn’t been cut.

equally contemptible as those who committed the atrocities in London and Manchester

Delete your account.

Hadith or Koranic reference please

My specific objection Nzcol is the blanket collection of information. Targeted intelligence there isn’t a problem with at any level. I regularly read Schneier and the intelligence community is constantly over reaching its remit. I don’t expect to be 100% safe that is incompatible with a free society. Concentration on those that are reported by the community would be a better approach than over reliance on blanket computer monitoring. 2 attacks from people reported is incompetence get out from behind the screen and do it the old fashioned way.

Then you are an idiot.

At a bit of a tangent maybe law enforcement and the judiciary might take road killings of cyclists a little more seriously as a result of Westminster and London Bridge. We can but hope! 😉

Pop down to Halifax, Dewsbury, Rochdale etc with your daughter or wife.
Have a walk around so how it works out for them.

I’ve been to Halifax. Saw nothing unusual.

I was walking through Birmingham the other day and there was half a dozen kids, average age of 6, in a variety of skin colours and speaking brummie with a variety of accents running around and playing happily together.

I think the majority of people do this. It’s just that some people want to focus on the segregationists so they notice that more than integration.

nickhit3

secular education system you say? Like France? How well is that working out for them? g

That’s got far less to do with France’s education system and more to do with their colonial forays into muslim nations in North Africa and subsequent ghettoisation of said muslims creating a fertile breeding ground for radicalisation.

Pop down to Halifax, Dewsbury, Rochdale etc with your daughter or wife.
Have a walk around so how it works out for them.

What’s this even supposed to mean? I was born and raised near Dewsbury and have also lived in Halifax. I genuinely have no idea what you are going on about.

+1 Sandwich, I completely agree.

I work in an Asian area of Rochdale.
I’ve absolutely no idea what you’re on about either.
Neither do my African, European and Asian colleagues who have just read this thread and your comments.

One of our residents, a Muslim man, has been in tears all day, repeatedly asking why these people are doing this in the name of his religion.
His parents can’t give him an answer, neither can I.

Islam doesn’t make people do this.
Ignorance makes people do this.

Love, light and peace people.

I can tell you very definitely that Islam discourages integration.

Denying that is silly.

I drove past my mum’s house yesterday to find her (Muslim) next-door neighbour doing a load of gardening for her. I assume it’s part of Ramadan, one of its tenets being “Generosity.” Next time I’m passing I’ll be sure to knock on his door and tell him what a bad Muslim he is.

My views on organised religion are well documented, but I live in an area with a larger-than-average Asian populace and I can tell you from first-hand experience who is “integrating” and who isn’t round here. All the shitehawks on my block are white.

Rusty Spanner

Islam doesn’t make people do this.
Ignorance makes people do this.

And yet there will obviously be corners of the world where the attack will be celebrated. Since there is no canonical authority on what is correct in regards to Islam it comes down to who shouts loudest and I imagine for moderates it’s hard to shout down the Saudi’s and their $100 billion a year budget of hatred.

well the term canonical refers to christianity, and RC at that, so of course its true they dont have it just like christanity does not have the hadith

Hey well done you scored points. Here, take some points.

I still don’t know what you mean.

God was created by man.
Everything done in the name of God is the work of man, with all his failings and vulnerabilities.

Any thought, any ideology can be used to influence people in an infinite variety of ways.
It’s just how we are.

Blaming Islam makes about as much sense as blaming the Wright brothers for a plane crash.

mitsumonkey – Member
What would I do,
1. Close all faith schools, secular schools only from now on with a varied mix of children from all races.

I agree completely, **** madness that we create divisions so young, would be hugely unpopular with Catholics, Muslims, Jews, etc etc, Sadly Blair loved them and his heirs Cameron and Gove loved the free school as a way to splinter education in the name of parental choice, Maybot wants her grammar schools too so that’s a no no

2. No single race/religion ‘ghettos’ diversity is needed.

nice idea forced relocations of millions of Britains sounds like it’ll be fun (fwiw my street has an almost equal white/non white split, but it’s a nice middle-class area so we integrate quite nicely)

3. Discourage/ban the wearing of the burka, it’s just a control garment forced onto women.

yeah I’m not a fan, but you will just be preventing women from ever leaving their houses and experiencing ever more subjugation

4. Outlaw Halal slaughter, again religion has no place in the food chain.

Again sounds nice, bit hypocritical in a world of intensive dairy and battery hens, etc

Rusty Spanner – Member

I still don’t know what you mean.

God was created by man.
Everything done in the name of God is the work of man, with all his failings and vulnerabilities.

How do you think this argument would have fared against the young men who tried to murder people with a van, then began stabbing random stangers with hunting knives?

Do you think you would have been able to stop them in their tracks? Do you think at any point you would be able to make them question the validity of their beliefs?

Any thought, any ideology can be used to influence people in an infinite variety of ways.
It’s just how we are.

So are all beliefs equally dangerous and equally benign? Does Buddism or Sikhism have the same potential for violence as christiantiy or Islam? Is it impossible to have a set of beliefs that can’t be misconstrued or misinterpreted or twisted towards violence?

Awaits three week ban.

Is it impossible to have a set of beliefs that can’t be misconstrued or misinterpreted or twisted towards violence?

Quite possibly very rare…

People form their beliefs to their desires, not generally the other way round.

I pointed out a flaw in your point, react how you feel best represents you

What would I do,
1. Close all faith schools, secular schools only from now on with a varied mix of children from all races.

agreed

2. No single race/religion ‘ghettos’ diversity is needed.

no idea how you intend to make this works – Muslims tend to live near a mosue as they attend 5x per day seems unfair to make them live miles away for diversity needs.

3. Discourage/ban the wearing of the burka, it’s just a control garment forced onto women.

its not about control its about choice. What on earth do you think banning women from wearing certain garments is exactly is not about force, control and making them wear what you want. Forcing women to wear what you want is no solution to women being forced to wear clothes of other peoples choosing [ even if this false trope was true]

4. Outlaw Halal slaughter, again religion has no place in the food chain.

i am always astounded when meat eaters suddenly care about animal welfare issues. I always suspect that is not the real motivation here

Junkyard

I pointed out a flaw in your point, react how you feel best represents you

No you were just being a pedant, trying to score points by deliberately misinterpreting my use of the term “canon”. Either that or your not aware of the broader use of the word canon and the term canonical which doesn’t necessarily refer to christianity or catholocism.

i am always astounded when meat eaters suddenly care about animal welfare issues.

Have you witnessed both forms of slaughter first hand for the comparison? I have btw.