Teaching and paperwork/overtime etc., (not a teacher bashing thread please!)…

Hi All

My niece works as a Psychology teacher, teaching sixth form children. She’s now at the end of her 2nd year and is getting disheartened by the paper work/marking/Ofsted/red-tape etc., that’s involved with the job and she’s considering re-training and moving to another profession (taking a Doctorate it Clinical Psychology in her case).

Her biggest problem seems to be she’s the only Psychcology teacher so she hasn’t got a group of colleagues (like English), to fall back-on.

Now my question – is the grass greener!…
I’ve never worked in a profession like teaching so I’m not best placed to advise her – but I would have thought that any job with a degree of responsibility has a large amount of paper-work and red-tape, and won’t necessarily be any better.

I think she should stick at teaching as she’s new to the profession and the non-teaching side of things is something you handle better with experience.

Any advice appreciated!

(Not a teacher but….) In term time most teachers I know seem to work very long hours, not just the 9-3.30 the parents see, however as recompense they do have excellent holidays so its a bit f a trade off. Is it a trade worth making? it depends on the individual

Most teaching friends I know reckon half of those generous holidays they get criticised for are taken up with paperwork, planning etc, and a couple of hours most nights and half a day at weekends.

They say it takes a couple of years to get into it, but once you are on top of it, but once you are, tbe planning time is reduced to just keeping it up to date.

MrsMC trains social workers. She puts in way more hours than she is paid for (partly staffing cuts, and only being part time). When she was frontline it was just as bad, especially with the additional requirement for CPD to maintain registration.

Suspect most “professions” are likely to be tbe same, especially public sector at the moment

Mrs BigJohn is a primary school teacher and the demands on her time are enormous. I don’t know why the teaching unions, for all their bluster, are so bleeding useless at cutting down the workload.

Teachers can plan, mark and grade in a sensible amount of time. It’s the activities which add nothing at all that take the hours.

Even as an experienced teacher, the demands are so great that she’s gone down to 3 days a week. As do most of the over 55s in the profession. They watch in horror as the young newly-qualified teachers come in and are completely overwhelmed by the workload. It’s like learning to surf at Croyde and then being thrown straight in to Jaws or Mavericks. Tears in the staffroom etc. and good teachers quitting after a year. Soon primary schools will be staffed by mostly women in their 50s to late 60s. (68 being the new state pension age) and a few demoralised youngsters.

And as for the planning becoming easier after the 1st year…that’s fine until the school changes its scheme, or curicculum or whatever.

Not a teacher but related to a couple and friends with a couple more, and i work with several clinical psychologists and a couple of d.clin trainees.

The training is hard to get into and academically of a very high standard. During training the money is pretty good (and so it should be, the trainees we have make a huge difference to the care and outcomes of our clients) but the coursework and dissertation is big, that is to say that overall workload and homework would be big during training.
Once qualified however you should expect to work for the hours that you are contracted to, not limitless evening and weekend time that is expected of some teachers. Even basic clinical psychology wage compares favourably to teaching with 6 weeks leave a year but a real 37.5 hour week if you manage your caseload reasonably well. However even head-of-service psychologists do not get as much as many head teachers, so think about what you want in terms of salary/carreer/managment stuff.

The other thing is of course the stress which is very different from teaching, though i couldn’t dare quantify which is worse. You need to know yourself very well and some of the things that clinical psychologists hear and ‘contain’ are moving and/or disturbing, and that sort of stress is not for everyone.

Overall though it is a fantastic job imo.

Talked with a good friend of mine who is a teacher and says the first 12 months are a nightmare but once you get to grip with the fact you will NEVER get it all done it eases the pressure somewhat.

And he worked all Sundays and most evening until he drew the conclusion he will always be behind and just accept it.

Next week will see me having done 20 years as a primary teacher. My first reaction is to tell her to run very fast and far. She is undoubtedly having a hard time due to her subject and some school staff are more united than others. Secondary schools can be rather big and often divide into little clans which doesn’t happen in the primary schools in my experience.
Paper work is unending and always building up. I would assume that she does all the planning which will kill her. She could do a 25 hour day and still be behind if things are not perfect. A less than great inspection will really add to it. She has to have a life out of school and be professional enough to live it and not just school, hard as that will be.
Other professions are as bad but often you can’t take work home which enforces a break. My wife is a senior social worker who does way to much unpaid overtime etc as there is always 12 hours work for an 8 hour day. At least it isn’t expected that she doubles her hours by working at home.
A 12 hour day is fairly normal in teaching and maybe more as a novice as you don’t have experience and a bank of planning to speed things up. The only teacher of a subject has more t do as well.
Weekends will be 50% hers.
Maybe give it 2 or 3 years. By then its either a habit or unbearable. The non teaching bit will always be the hardest and largest part of her job.
If I could start again, knowing what I do I wouldn’t bother. As it is I have got out of the mainstream grind.

And he worked all Sundays and most evening until he drew the conclusion he will always be behind and just accept it.

I wish my partner could have this attitude. Last night was the first evening out we’ve had during the week in term for as long as I can remember and was only because they have a school trip today so there wasn’t any planning to do.

It is.a case of picking your battles, I’ve moved from private to state sector and I’ve suddenly got a life. There should be a working time agreement somewhere that will give some indication of what the school expects although this won’t come near the hours you have to put in. First two years are the worst. I’m now sitting in the garden having been for a ride enjoying the sunshine but knowing next week I need to go into school and do probably two day.

I did 34 years teaching in comprehensive schools. The job took me on an exchange to Australia, conferences in Boston/Harvard, a teachers’fellowship at Oxford. I was an examiner for GCSE and A level and a reviser for GCSE exams, I reviewed new A level syllabuses for a government agency. I wrote articles and edited sections of textbooks, I was on the executive committee of a national teachers’ organisation. I happily worked long hours and despite a 27 mile commute each way I would be at my desk around 7 a.m.
Then we had Gove and academies and Peter Wilshire, Head of Ofsted, saying ‘when people tell me teacher morale is at an all time low, I know I’m getting something right.’ Increasingly schools are employing transactional/hierarchical rather than transformational styles of management which means that teachers feel undermined not just by the government but also by their own leadership team. I got an award from Ofsted in the past and the school I taught at they described as ‘Outstanding’. However, the stress of the job (not necessarily from the kids) meant that around a fifth of the staff left last year and I bailed into early retirement this year.
I loved teaching and being around young people and helping them progress can be a joy. The job has become toxic and whilst I wouldn’t discourage someone going into it, they have to be fully aware of what they are getting into and the possible/likely costs to themselves people around them. If you have a constructive, stimulating and reasonably paid alternative, it has to be considered very seriously.

It’s most easily summed up by saying only teach if you want to be a teacher.

Seeing Mrs B work, wouldn’t touch it with yours myself 🙂

She’ll be very much mistaken if she believes moving into clinical side would be easier, she’ll still be doing work in her own time trying to catch up with patient notes, training and other admin related stuff. All that with less time off too.

the-muffin-man – Member

…is getting disheartened by the paper work/marking/Ofsted/red-tape etc., …

Unless she has no other options then stay otherwise everywhere is better than having to be stressed up by bureaucrats.

🙂

It’s most easily summed up by saying only teach if you want to be a teacher.

I’m torn between thinking this is the most Zen-like profound concept I’ve heard, and justifies a lifetime of meditation upon.

Or is it a case of stating the bleedin’ obvious. Confucius once said “only go to the barber if you need a haircut.”

My ex is a FE teacher. Always was moaning about lesson plans, paper work, office politics (of which there seems to a lot more in educational establishments, I think – having worked in one myself). She’s been talking about leaving it for the past ooh, 8-10 years!
Couple of weeks time she’ll be off for a couple of months, I think that eases the pain somewhat.

Just tell her to focus on the kids and the lessons and let other things simply wash over her. If I tried to do even half the things people expect me to do I would not have more than 4 hours sleep a night and never see my son. Nod, smile and ignore, nod, smile and ignore, its the only way.
Oh and contact other physc teachers in the area to get help with stuff.

As a secondary school teacher also racking up 20 years experience, my advice would be to look for a job at a Sixth Form College or a school with a large sixth form where she will then be in a reasonable sized department – still probably less than 5 teachers, but better than being on your own!

Six years ago I thought I’d had enough of teaching, but then I came to the realisation it wasn’t teaching per se, but the particular circumstances at that school. I got myself a job at a different school and I’m much happier – nicer students, nicer departmental staff makes all the difference!

EDIT: Having said that I would say all the extra “bollocks” that I like to call it is worse than ever, and that Gove and Wilshaw and a new, growing breed of nasty data-driven, not child-centred headteachers are making life a misery for many good teachers. Thankfully my Headteacher is relatively ‘old-school’ although times are definitely changing…

I’m torn between thinking this is the most Zen-like profound concept I’ve heard, and justifies a lifetime of meditation upon.

Or is it a case of stating the bleedin’ obvious. Confucius once said “only go to the barber if you need a haircut.”

Most likely the second 😀

But it was born of frustration, seeing to many people enter her profession after they couldn’t get a job, and did a PGCE. It’s not the vocation it once was (though that’s probably rose tinted) and many don’t seem prepared for how hard it is to do well – and if you’re not going to do it well, please don’t. I’m only thinking of the children ( and possibly baby robins) 🙂

My wife’s a teacher and the extra work she puts in drives me mad, we have no other life together during school time.

I work 12 hour days but that’s it, I won’t bring any of it home with me, she starts out to work at 7 in the morning and finishes at 11 in the evening constantly!

Weekends I’ve been trying to get her to have at least one day without school work to spend with us the family.

It’s a damm hard job and I wouldn’t do it!

It’s not the vocation it once was

This is true of a lot of professional jobs; don’t get my parents started on the new generation of doctors and their expectations.

As Drac implied, I am not sure Clinical Psychology will be any easier in terms of paperwork, health service vs social service battles and out-of-contracted-hours working. From the friends I have in both teaching and medicine, both areas have significant downsides. But particularly for teaching there does seem to come a point where you can start to manage the workload and ignore the less important stuff (or have things from previous years you can use) even with changing curriculums. Does she have old Uni mates who have gone down the Clinical route to compare against? And are they as consciencious as she appears to be? If she is struggling because she is trying to get everything done on time and keep everyone happy, won’t she have the same issues in Clinical Psychology?

My wife was a teacher, and her brother is a clinical psychologist so I have some knowledge of both.

My wife finally threw in the towel when our daughter was born and has zero desire to go back into teaching, what annoyed her the most was that some of her colleagues seemed to get by copy/pasting ILPs, lesson plans etc. whereas it used to take her hours each day.

My brother-in-law complains that he spends more time in the car than with patients, this is partly due to his location (Scottish highlands) but also because the area he now covers has expanded due to NHS cutbacks. In terms of paperwork when we were there at Christmas he was complaining how difficult it was to get authorization to even see a new patient, so I would say the role is very paperwork heavy. The flip side is that he earns a very healthy salary.

Mrs Freeagent is a science teacher in a local comprehensive.
She has been teaching around 14 years, and the job has changed massively in that time.

The new wave of Headteachers appear to be little more than glorified supermarket managers who are driving their staff into the ground in order to make marginal gains.

She works many more hours than I do, for less money, and much less job satisfaction – she loves the ‘teaching’ bit, and spending time with the kids, but the volume of pointless admin is getting beyond a joke.
In my job (Engineering) we actively seek out ways to cut down work process steps, and avoid double-handling tasks, where as schools seem to be actively looking for ways to load teachers up with tasks.

A good example of this would be when she marks a book, the marks need to be recorded in 4 different formats… madness

Schools seem to be more interested in employing cheap NQTs with limitless enthusiasm, and no work-life balance aspirations, than experienced, solid people. There is no planning or interest in the future beyond the next OFSTED inspection.

She is looking to get out of it, and I think next year maybe her last.

I wouldn’t do it for twice the money – mostly due to the fact that most Schools seem to managed by absolute T**ts.

freeagent – Member

… where as schools seem to be actively looking for ways to load teachers up with tasks. …

That’s the bureaucrats with PC coming in big time. Run! Run as quickly as you can!

Get out quick while you still can coz it’s not good for health etc. You will be better off getting income that does not stress you up even if it means lesser spending power.

Stress is the root of all poor health …

🙂

Most teachers work silly hours.
I am married to one. I was one. I worked with over 1000 Scottish teachers this year, 140 on a long term basis.
It is a job where during term time, there is some silly long hours.
Holidays, you do have to put in work, but you do still get longer than most, on balance.
Up here, there is a huge campaign gathering to reduce paperwork and bureaucracy.
But, it is a fabulous job.

‘The new wave of Headteachers appear to be little more than glorified supermarket managers who are driving their staff into the ground in order to make marginal gains.’ HTNOTH absolutely! Teachers are driven into the ground to protect the head’s job and amazing bonuses (I know, I was a school governor).

‘Schools seem to be more interested in employing cheap NQTs with limitless enthusiasm, and no work-life balance aspirations, than experienced, solid people. There is no planning or interest in the future beyond the next OFSTED inspection.’ …often employing not the brightest candidates but ones who’re likely to be a bit more anxious and do as they’re told without questioning poor management practice.

It is gratifying but sad to read these shared perceptions. The awful thing is, it’s bad news for the teachers and certainly no good for the kids’ education as their curricular experiences are narrowed down and repeated simply to meet the exigencies of the exam system. No wonder so few of them read books or are into life-long learning.

Doctorate it Clinical Psychology

I have some friends who are Clinical psychologists for the NHS and they both say it’s a very bad place to be at the moment as the government cutbacks are starting to make it a dangerous place to work and its only a matter of time until a major incident happens. To the point they and a lot of their colleagues are thinking about alternative careers (and these are people with at least one if not two Phd’s)

They also lament how an accountant and/or management consultant opinion has more weight than a Doctors on how patients should be treated as its now about making people ‘safe’ as cheaply as possible rather than treating people.

If the Tories get in again it could be the whole care in the community disaster again.

Just something to think about…..

Some interesting information. I am currently teaching in the military and was contemplating it as a career outside as I really enjoy it. But the more I read about the profession I don’t get a fluffy feeling.

Oh and I blame it on homework!

Making people bring work home at an early age only encourages it in employment later on!

I still can’t believe my.4 year old.gets homework! Wtf is.that about??

How many actual teachers do we have on here?

I’ll start. Me

Me.

Assistant HT, ten years in the job. I do not ‘drive my staff into the ground’, I haven’t had a bonus since forever, and those excellent holidays that keep getting bandied around are a fallacy. I work 80+ hours per week. With one day off.

Despite all of the shite, it is an amazing job, and one that I am very proud of. I also appreciate it isn’t for everyone though.

I’m sat right now levelling year 3/4 writing assessments. Tomorrow I mark 34 maths optional SAT papers. Then I will prepare transition and handover. Oh and I’ve not even mentioned planning there.

I may just sneak an hour with the mrs on Sunday.

Would I change it – no. As above I’m incredibly proud of what I’ve achieved and what I do.

me too
at least sort of, out of work at mo having ‘left ‘at easter hoping to get supply work in sept.
Mrs G also currently marking yet more internal exams 10.45pm friday night. both enjoy the teaching side of it but the BS that goes with :evil:it

I’ve been teaching for over 20 years.
imho – BillMC and Freeagent have hit the nail on the head.

It’s taken me a long time to find a school where they’re is still a ‘long term investment’ in the pupils and staff.

I leave teaching this Friday for many of the reasons BillMC outlines. I’m sick of seeing valued colleagues hounded to ill health or driven out for criticising the leadership team – of which I was a member until a few years ago. As Head of Sixth Form, the day to day contact with kids is amazing, but the blundering at the top and the “you must exceed these targets and do it this way with yours hands tied” has killed the teaching for me – which makes planning and marking an almighty chore. The only staff at our place managing to meet demands are those without kids and/or outside interests.
Some schools are much better. We’ve taken ours from special measures to an on-site new build academy judged Good in 5 years – but that’s not good enough.
Au revoir the ‘chalk face’

I’m aware this is not always the popular view, but has she considered the private sector? It’s where I’m at now. I have one mark book, have the independent school inspectorate rather than ofsted (much less pressure) and whilst of course there is pressure on grades my senior management team are focussed on promoting excellence in teaching and educating the whole child. The hours are still very long during term time but I feel the majority of the hours that I do have a direct benefit to the students.

Agree with AA, “Smile, agree, ignore” works wonders

Aren’t “all the other activities” part of the attraction?

When my SIL moans about the huge amount of work that is required preparing for an OFSTED I just smile ironically. That in itself tells a lot (1) preparation should not be needed, (2) OFSTED should be reporting on the usual school not some pumped up temporary version. Leaving aside the blunt methods of supervision, it should not be feared IMO.

Good to see several v talented sons/daughters of my friends choosing such a noble precession and exciting auditing, finance, manufacturing. It’s not all gloom and doom.

The new wave of Headteachers appear to be little more than glorified supermarket managers who are driving their staff into the ground in order to make marginal gains.

What he said. I’ve been teaching for 20 years, used to love it and wanted to do nothing else. These days there’s so much wrong with education it’s frustrating and depressing.

I have a number of ex-teacher colleagues. None of them regret leaving the profession.

We are just the bad teachers