Surveillance Capitalism

Sorry, wrong link posted above. Let’s all savour, one more time, the genius that is Liz Truss, our buccaneering ambassador for ‘Global*’ Britain, making an utter tit of herself.

*Global, but without having to deal with dirty forriners, obviously…

Edit: nearly as much a tit as I am making of myself trying to post links on this **** forum….🤦‍♂️

the mockery I got for suggesting one should do what little one can to control your data and how its used.

I’m doing so for a large cosmetics retailer at the moment. I’m not using mind control techniques. I just make it look nice

of course you are! You might not really realise it (and if you were better at it you’d probably be earning a lot more money 😉) but that’s what advertising is. Unless you’re saying you’d design material for make-up exactly the same as you would for, say, a cordless drill?

Truss is an absolutely shocking public speaker. So strained and forced. Then there’s that absolutely vacant smile she gives waiting for applause, like a 2 year old waiting for daddy to say “well done” for pooing on the potty.

Even if what she was saying made any sense I’d just want to switch my brain off.

Actually, I’m get gadget audience aren’t I?😉

Unless you’re saying you’d design material for make-up exactly the same as you would for, say, a cordless drill?

I might give that a go 😀

my general experience of targeting advertising is that I buy something, and then get followed around the internet by adverts for variants on that product for the next month or so. I am the least likely person to buy another of that thing.

its not sinister, its largely shit….

I’m aware of all that thanks and considered it to be so obvious as to not need pointing out, especially not in such a self-congratulatory, sneering way. But thanks for your contribution

There is a fine line between believing passionately in something and coming across as a paranoid conspiracy nut / combative plonker.

I think with comments like that you might be tap dancing on that line. Perhaps go ride your bike for a bit (just don’t log it on Strava)

I might give that a go 😀

there might be an as-yet-unexploited crossover niche there, to be fair 🤔

I’ve not watched the video but I remember a corporate video posted by LG on it’s website, for it’s partners, gleefully showing all the tracking technologies used in their smart TV’s. It was geared toward advertising engagement and demonstrated the face tracking.

I think you can still find it as someone copied it before it was hastily removed from their website.

The fact they get you to pay for all this shit and I’ve seen instances where the GUI stutters/delays and glitches while attempting to access an internet connection when it’s off/unplugged. DVD players used to show a splash screen, while all the region and copy protection software did it’s thing, so delayed playback. We didn’t ask for all these wonderful features that don’t benefit us in any way!

I think with comments like that you might be tap dancing on that line.

You think this was a worthwhile response/contribution to me saying I don’t care for supermarket loyalty cards? Ok….

If this is the level of paranoia you’ve achieved – then you’d better ditch everything & I mean EVERYTHING. Go completely off-grid. No tech. Live off the land. Cash only for any purchases you might make, that’s if you’re not going to barter for things.

I’m just very sick of seeing these stupid black and white arguments, but welcome to the internet I suppose. I never claimed not using supermarket loyalty cards was going to solve anything so going into a lengthy rant about how stupid I would be if I thought that is rather annoying/pointless.

Bike is currently not where I am due to moving house/storage/rental property not having space etc so not an option sadly for now.

I’ve not watched the video but I remember a corporate video posted by LG on it’s website, for it’s partners, gleefully showing all the tracking technologies used in their smart TV’s. It was geared toward advertising engagement and demonstrated the face tracking.

Interesting. I never even thought about Smart TVs but it makes perfect sense.

According to this US/UK intelligence have an exploit for Samsung TVs allowing them to make it look like it’s switched off and start recording/sending them audio.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/09/if-you-have-a-smart-tv-take-a-closer-look-at-your-privacy-settings.html

Never had/used loyalty cards, never had/used Facebook/instagram or any social media accounts, I did own a couple Alexa dots but got rid of them a few years ago, now have Apple HomePod mini’s, always used Macs/iPhones, use brave browser/duck duck go, never click on a link to advertised products, I open up a separate window – that’s how I bought my tin-foil helmet…….i’m clever I am.

my general experience of targeting advertising is that I buy something, and then get followed around the internet by adverts for variants on that product for the next month or so. I am the least likely person to buy another of that thing.

its not sinister, its largely shit….

+1
This is something that I really don’t understand. I constantly hear about the ‘really sinister’ use of online data and the incredibly complex & clever algorithms which allegedly know more about me than I do. So much so that most people are apparently unable to distinguish the targeted advertising from legitimate messages or posts from their friends.
However, all I ever see are adverts for things which I have already bought, suggestions that I visit Scotland (I own & run a tourism business in Scotland), and off road motorbiking / random extreme sports videos.

Sorry, wrong link posted above. Let’s all savour, one more time, the genius that is Liz Truss, our buccaneering ambassador for ‘Global*’ Britain, making an utter tit of herself.

*Global, but without having to deal with dirty forriners, obviously…

I’m not sure how this thread got to Liz Truss, but I wrote part of that speech 😀

However, all I ever see are adverts for things which I have already bought,

That’s my experience too.

However, maybe they’re only playing at being that dumb (makes you think…)

This thread hasn’t been a total waste of time. It’s reminded me that I need to order some Denby from my Tesco Clubcard benefits.

This is something that I really don’t understand. I constantly hear about the ‘really sinister’ use of online data and the incredibly complex & clever algorithms which allegedly know more about me than I do.

I think it’s more the potential for use/misuse in the future, we’re in the very early days of being permanently digitally connected and things are evolving very rapidly. It’s not like you’d be the first person in history to say, “well I can’t see THIS ever being a problem” and then having it massively biting you on the arse 🤣

This thread hasn’t been a total waste of time. It’s reminded me that I need to order some Denby from my Tesco Clubcard benefits.

Glad I was of benefit. You don’t need big data algorithms snooping on you club card through hidden smart speakers, you just need banter on STW. Don’t forget to look in the Denby seconds store, total bargains to be had in there!

How is it that they can detect pregnancy from a change in smelly products, but the best Amazon can do is “Oh, I see you bought a toaster, perhaps you’d like to buy another 50 toasters?”

thepurist
Full Member

Except we are because the data protection act was amended to include gdpr and the ico have confirmed this will continue to apply.

For now, aye. It’s already been mentioned many times as some of the “EU red tape” which is “holding us back”. Much easier to change or remove protection when it’s only at a national level (does anyone believe that today’s government would have ever introduced the current levels of protection if not for the EU?)

I wish I’d have bloody known. I just bought a load of Denby to replace the various bits of ours that I’ve smashed over the years

@grum – could you not have started this thread a few weeks ago?

Security Services can knock themselves one out with my browser history.

FTFY!

Any freeloaders members getting ads for pottery yet.

Who’d have thought it eh……

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27887275

https://www.zdnet.com/article/rogue-cctv-technician-spied-on-hundreds-of-customers-during-intimate-moments/

I can see home CCTV being the next middle class babysitting boom. Maybe not have a camera in the master bedroom, just the kids LOL

The best was when when we started referring to Deadly Darcy as DD, which then prodded an algorithm into a deluge of Bravissimo underwear adverts for the more generously proportioned lady.

Obviously I’ve referred to him as Bravissimo ever since 😀

People always try to read things into what you’ve said and argue against that rather than what you’ve actually said? Isn’t that the straw man logical fallacy?

Well on their part yes, but that’s not the case here. People aren’t *trying* to read things into what you’ve said – it’s quite accidental. And a lot more prevalent on the internet than in real life.

I have to be aware of it all the time – and it’s happening to me right on this thread. Because I disagreed with part of your post grum you seemed to jump to the conclusion that I disagreed with all of it and took a completely opposition position. I’m not having a go here – somehow this is natural to all of us, and it’s hard not to do it.

BTW another aspect to Brexit is that we are no longer covered by EU privacy laws, woo!

Not strictly true.

The Data Protection Act 2018 incorporated GDPR into UK law. The UK will need to stay closely aligned to the EU on this because (& I quote):

“ Being an EU Member State, means data can flow unhindered across borders to and from the UK. This makes business cheaper, faster and generally easier.

However, when the UK leaves the EU, data will no longer be able to rely on data flowing freely, this will depend on our data protection laws being considered ‘Adequate’ (as defined by Article 45 of the GDPR by the EU Commission).

This means our data protection laws must be sufficiently similar to the EU data protection laws so that the EU feel that citizens’ data is being ‘adequately’ protected if shared with the UK.

Clearly, the more negative the disparity between the DPA and GDPR, the less likely we will be deemed Adequate, therefore these differences really do matter.”

https://www.gov.uk/data-protection

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/gdpr-data-protection-act

https://www.dpocentre.com/difference-dpa-2018-and-gdpr/

its not sinister, its largely shit….

As mentioned already there are examples where they’ve deliberately made the targeting less accurate in order to stop people noticing how targeted it is. I think it’s naive to assume algorithms aren’t out there doing that all the time, but it’s bound to be patchy in terms of quality of data and application of it.

I bet those with really deep pockets can get their advertising well targeted and reasonably subtle.

sounds like conspiracy nonsense to me

I think the trouble is that it’s not, at least not entirely. There is pervasive technology in your house and pocket gathering your images, video and audio, reading any text you post. And there are various companies ‘processing’ that data to make connections and inferences from the scraps of your digital life. As the profile they build is “derived” rather than the original source data, what rights/controls/protections do you really have over it’s use or resale?

TBH I’m maybe less concerned about businesses using my data (or derivatives thereof) to try and flog me stuff (I suppose can always refuse to buy). But the idea that my data or my “data derived profile” could be used by anyone including more malicious actors, I never chose to engage with is more worrying to me…

Cambridge Analytica illustrate the scarier end of the scale; a near enough invisible social manipulation outfit (at the time), that managed to identify, target and sway whole demographic groups, fundamentally to deliver power for those wealthy and unscrupulous enough to pay…

Brexit/Trump related targeted Social meeja influencing back in 2015/16 were the first proper public demonstration of the malevolent possibilities for “Big Data” and we’re basically half a decade past that now, I do think it is a legitimate thing to worry about and question…

The problem for us hand wringers is that it’s increasingly seen as the expected/accepted trade-off.
Users get to use some service or product for free. Except “for free” really means handing over your personal information and not worrying that the “processing” mentioned in the T&Cs really means generating a derived profile of you which is then potentially doing the rounds with all kinds of organisations.
The assumption being this falls outside GDPR’s purview, so why bother to try and control it?
Plus it’s easy to rubbish such misgivings as uninformed worries over evil electronic “woooo”, but the tools have already been successfully deployed on the public.

I also really liked seeing the Amish IT setup…

But the idea that my data or my “data derived profile” could be used by anyone including more malicious actors, I never chose to engage with is more worrying to me…

This is the real issue that needs to be dealt with IMO – and it is being looked at all the time. You should have a relationship with a provider, and only they are allowed to use that data for the purposes you agreed on in the T&Cs (that you read, right?). They are not allowed to then sell that data on, at least in the UK and EU. However, if a customer says ‘can you send this add to all people who are MTBers’ then Google can say ‘yes sure’ and the customer never gets to see who’s on that list.

End result is pretty much the same, but the 3rd party never gets your data. But Google then could say ‘you have to tell us what this ad is for, and if it’s political in nature we won’t do business with you’.

I just wish Amazon would advertise books to me which I haven’t already bought off them in the last month. They have all my purchase data but seem incapable of doing anything useful with it.

If I buy a drill, then then offer me loads of drills – WTF? I’ve just bought one, I’m not going to buy another for years.

Personally, I’m amazed how crap their data analytics appears to be.

Likewise FB, I use FB everyday, post 100s of things all from Cambridge. It must have figured out where I live by now. So I stick a bike for sale in local FB groups and it’s master surveillance Capitalism algorithms decide to advertise it to people in Glasgow, who then start messaging me asking to come and see it.

I really don’t think we have anything to worry about.

There’s some research about showing people ads for stuff they’ve already bought, it has some positive effect for the retailer, but I don’t have it to hand.

Have you ever read any of the privacy statements?

Let me sum it up for you: By using a service you agree to them and their “partners” (subject to change) doing what they want, whenever they want, forever.

What about the canny way they track your usage across different apps (Android) by using a separate app for the touch keyboard. So they get everything you type in regardless of what other apps you’re using!

The concerns are not only are you paying for it (consumer electronics). You’re “voluntarily” allowing spy devices into your home, which in most cases the exact details of what is being used by whom and when is not fully disclosed/obfuscated.

You are also providing corporations with additional revenue streams (you have paid for the hardware implementation and get no cut), which you have no control over and is for their’s and others benefit not yours.

Many of these devices can and would function without the spying elements but manufactures choose to not offer the option at all, make it very difficult to opt out, opt you in by default, use hidden menus and bible length T&C’s. The use by security services of these systems will never be fully disclosed to the public at large.

Boiling frogs springs to mind

I wonder whether the seemingly hugely inflated stock market valuations placed on companies like Uber and Deliveroo which don’t actually make a profit relate to their ability to harvest vast amounts of useful data?

Personally, I’m amazed how crap their data analytics appears to be.

My bold. Already covered.

Boiling frogs springs to mind

The emperor’s new clothes more like.

I wonder whether the seemingly hugely inflated stock market valuations placed on companies like Uber and Deliveroo which don’t actually make a profit relate to their ability to harvest vast amounts of useful data?

No, people will pay a lot for their stock because other people will pay a lot for their stock.

Many of these devices can and would function without the spying elements but manufactures choose to not offer the option at all, make it very difficult to opt out

Do you have examples? Opt-in by default is illegal under the GDPR legislation.

systm needsd mor grbage pumpd intoit,

anilize ayway… 😉

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@molgrips

Some services do not allow use without agreeing to telemetry in the terms. You can only opt to not use the service in it’s entirety, like banks, accept the terms or **** off. After you have bought a device that utilises a service like this, you either put up with it or get a refund. IME it’s rarely made clear upfront and alternatives are not always offered or possible.

Certain LG smart TVs opt you in to all the Legal Documents, they’re ticked by default. You have to untick them, then go through sub menus. You can’t get rid of the advertising window without losing all the other services. Even when you untick all the consent options it still sends telemetry data.

Hobsons choice sprinkled with some gentle coercion.

Even when you untick all the consent options it still sends telemetry data.

What data does it send? Has noone challenged this legally?

I wonder whether the seemingly hugely inflated stock market valuations placed on companies like Uber and Deliveroo which don’t actually make a profit relate to their ability to harvest vast amounts of useful data?

I have certainly seen that theory before – especially the city bike companies. the bike hire barely breaks even – its the travel patterns and the data they hope to get from it when they make the money

Not from any reputable source that i can remember tho but they certainly collect the data.