Well if anyone from GCHQ or MI5 or whatever is reading this…..

You know as well as the rest of us grownups that Brexit is a lie and the rise of populism under that cynical greased piglet Johnson is predicated on that lie and other lies of a similar ilk. Those of us who can see it for what it is will never let it go. So tell that to Alexander on his next briefing.

There, that felt goooooood…..

but this stuff is taking that concept to new completely unprecedented and fairly extreme levels, and it has profound implications for democracy in a way that store loyalty cards never did.

I don’t disagree with this. But it’s an evolution of what’s been going on for decades, not some new evil phenomenon. Although the targeted (no pun intended) political ads are new.

You can opt out of Facebook, by the way, by not using it. There are also alternatives to Google. I think the big issue is that people are taking these services for granted without realising what they give to obtain them. Even though it’s there in the T&Cs that no-one reads.

Magic always has a price…

that’s not what the whattaboutary was about

wasn’t it? what was it then?

I’m not sure anyone is claiming it’s new. In the video no-one bothered watching she suggests surveillance capitalism has been around for 20 years or so.

You can opt out of Facebook, by the way, by not using it.

I don’t.

Look how easily this tech can be used to manipulate people even without some of the more sophisticated tools/data that has become available.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebook-genocide.html

You can opt out of Facebook, by the way, by not using it

Well aside from the shadow profiles.

I don’t use supermarket loyalty cards either due to privacy concerns.

I don’t really regard my weekly shop as private. It is just not interesting enough for me to care if other people know about it. Besides, would the truly paranoid not assume they can link purchases to your payment card anyway, or do you only use cash?

In return for them knowing how much hummus, bog roll and Fab ice lollies I buy, they give me points that I spend on meals out or, more recently, nice Denby crockery for my house. Seems fair.

Simply put, I don’t care that much about most of my data to worry if algorithms are mining it or organisations are trying to use it for commercial gain. Ultimately only I chose where to spend my money.

PS, watching YouTube videos is not research. This is clearly proven by flat earthers.

I’m not sure anyone is claiming it’s new.

It’s insinuated – people seem automatically to think ‘oh these new things are evil we need to go back to the good old days’, from reading the knee-jerk comments on SM, but it’s not quite that simple. And that lack of thought from many irritates me.

PS, watching YouTube videos is not research. This is clearly proven by flat earthers.

What if you are researching ‘village idiot, ducking stool, witch hunting, fuckwittery in a modern context’ for your PhD?

I don’t use supermarket loyalty cards either due to privacy concerns.

If this is the level of paranoia you’ve achieved – then you’d better ditch everything & I mean EVERYTHING. Go completely off-grid. No tech. Live off the land. Cash only for any purchases you might make, that’s if you’re not going to barter for things. Ditching loyalty cards won’t change anything. Every time you drive past an ANPR camera, enter a shopping precinct or town centre with its CCTV, use your credit card, tap in & tap out on public transport – your movements are recorded. Ditching a loyalty card isn’t going to cover your tracks.

Surveillance is everywhere – now, whether or not you’re concerned about whether someone knows that you went & bought a pasty from Greggs in the town centre with your debit card & you parked in the multi-story for 43 minutes or not…I don’t know, but if you’re worried enough to ditch your loyalty card then I don’t think you’ve gone far enough with your precautions.

Personally, I’ve nothing to hide. My tastes are pretty simple: bikes, beer, good food & coffee. Security Services can knock themselves out with my browser history.

@nickc whattaboutary is claiming that thing A is irrelevant because thing B is similar, but worse, which seems to be at odds to your actual point, so maybe just a misunderstanding of semantics, because obviously both ARE relevant in this instance.

Re accidentally activating a listening device – I’m thinking of making a dance track that simply contains the lyric ‘Alexa, louder!’ repeated over and over.

Pete Tong played a track last month which did something similar

PS, watching YouTube videos is not research.

Good thing no-one has claimed it is then.

Cash only for any purchases you might make, that’s if you’re not going to barter for things. Ditching loyalty cards won’t change anything.

Reductio ad absurdum. You don’t have to take everything to extremes to have the right to take small steps, and TBH I don’t not have loyalty cards because I think it will change anything I just don’t like the idea of them, and frankly I always have too much shite in my wallet without them anyway.

And I don’t use Facebook partly because I think they are evil data-mining ****s but mainly because it’s designed to be addictive and I have poor impulse control!

Ooh look there’s the sneering I was expecting.

Just because it’s everywhere, doesn’t make it right nor proper. My choices are mine and yours are yours I’m happy that you’re comfortable with your choices.

I’m no longer on the major social media websites as a logged in user, I occasionally look in to follow a post from somewhere else as far as is practicable but in the main life is much better without them.

Simply put, I don’t care that much about most of my data to worry if algorithms are mining it or organisations are trying to use it for commercial gain. Ultimately only I chose where to spend my money.

This. I get free stuff and they tell me about offers on other stuff that I like.

It’s hardly the decline of western civilisation, is it?

You don’t have to use facebook or Google. Its not like they’re compulsory

I pity anyone having to look into any aspect of my life. Particularly at the moment where nipping to Tesco is like a trip to a theme park.

Should anyone be interested, I’m having a cheese and onion pie for my lunch

Personally, I’ve nothing to hide. My tastes are pretty simple: bikes, beer, good food & coffee. Security Services can knock themselves out with my browser history.

Not really the point though is it, as I’m sure you’re well aware.

It’s hardly the decline of western civilisation, is it?

Not in itself, but there’s good evidence it was fairly important in the success of the Brexit campaign, which led to the subsequent installation of the same team at No 10. I’m not sure you’re a big fan?

I don’t use supermarket loyalty cards either due to privacy concerns.

&

TBH I don’t not have loyalty cards because I think it will change anything I just don’t like the idea of them, and frankly I always have too much shite in my wallet without them anyway.

Make your mind up!

Should anyone be interested, I’m having a cheese and onion pie for my lunch

That had better be British cheese or Liz Truss will send you to one of the camps.

Should anyone be interested, I’m having a cheese and onion pie for my lunch

I know.

Nice slippers, by the way.

Make your mind up!

It’s both. I don’t like the idea of them because I don’t like the idea of them using my data to sell me more stuff. If you look into the way supermarkets use psychology it’s a bit creepy. I’m sure you think you’re too smart to be affected or unless I live in a bunker and grow everything hydroponically I’ve no right to comment, or something equally stupid.

You don’t have to buy the stuff they try to sell you, you know?

If you look into the way supermarkets use psychology it’s a bit creepy.

Why? We all know what they’re doing. They just want us to buy more stuff off them and not their competitors. If you play the game then you get free stuff and cheaper stuff. Theres not much sinister about that.

I spend most of my life designing stuff to aid various businesses doing the same thing. Theres nothing sinister about it. I’m doing so for a large cosmetics retailer at the moment. I’m not using mind control techniques. I just make it look nice

Really? Wow. Any more brilliant insight to offer binners? Are you one of those people who likes to kid themselves that marketing/advertising doesn’t work on you? 🙄

And yes, if you just ignore all the stuff you don’t want to think about and highlight one benign aspect of all this then it’s fine, yay!

Makes me want to go and live in a cave.

Using complex data harvesting and subliminal systems for influencing behaviour ,developed by Mosad and sold to a clandestine black ops wing of Wookie Hole Visitor Centre Marketing Department,  you’ve been persuaded to want to go and spend more time in a cave.

you’ve been persuaded to want to go and spend more time in a cave.

I knew Big Cave would have a hand in this somewhere.

@zilog6128 ah yeah, good point. cheers!

Are you one of those people who likes to kid themselves that marketing/advertising doesn’t work on you?

Marketing/advertising is just another form of communication. Done well it works, done badly (which it mostly is) it doesn’t.

On the scale of ‘stuff I need to worry about’ people using my data to market things at me is right up there with what should I have for my tea

Most of you arguing this doesn’t matter are basically just saying, ‘so what if this tech is used for really sinister stuff which I’m indirectly contributing to, and to the general destruction of the planet by driving ever greater consumption, the concentration of power in the hands of billionaires, and the erosion of democratic oversight, I’m doing fine thanks’. That’s a legit position but you could at least try and be honest about it.

And you find the time to watch people take penalties with fake crowd noise and not win any titles on a regular basis so you’d think you might have some headspace for caring about this stuff available. 😉

I think you’re overthinking it

My pie was very nice. If I tell you where it was from is that sinister mind-manipulation too?

As far as I’m aware no bunnies were stamped to death or water courses poisoned in the procurement of my lunch

I think you’re overthinking it

I think you’re underthinking it, but yes…. I’ve been self-employment furloughed for a loooooooong time….. Over-thinking is kinda my thing.

It’s both. I don’t like the idea of them because I don’t like the idea of them using my data to sell me more stuff. If you look into the way supermarkets use psychology it’s a bit creepy. I’m sure you think you’re too smart to be affected or unless I live in a bunker and grow everything hydroponically I’ve no right to comment, or something equally stupid.

WOOOOSHHHH…..

My point being loyalty cards are the least of your worries if you’re concerned about your privacy. Far greater steps are required if you truly want to escape it all – small steps just won’t be effective.

Ditching it all is the only way you’ll make a difference.

I’m aware of all that thanks and considered it to be so obvious as to not need pointing out, especially not in such a self-congratulatory, sneering way. But thanks for your contribution.

Ditching it all is the only way you’ll make a difference.

https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/black-and-white-thinking

so what if this tech is used for really sinister stuff which I’m indirectly contributing to, and to the general destruction of the planet by driving ever greater consumption, the concentration of power in the hands of billionaires, and the erosion of democratic oversight, I’m doing fine thanks

That’s not what I’m saying at all.

I don’t think you can directly blame data gathering for this. The implicit alternative to what you seem to be arguing is that if we DIDN’T have data gathering, everything would be fine. But this is not the case. All of those things did happen, to a lesser or in fact greater extent – and have been happening without Google and Facebook doing their bit. The problem has changed, for sure, but is it worse? When was the golden age of good government and democratic responsibility? Sure, evil forces can target voters effectively, but so can good causes, can’t they?

A key point being overlooked here is that most of this stuff is still optional. But people don’t choose to disengage. If they did – if we all left Facebook and went back to texting and calling – they’d collapse overnight. This is why it’s essential to have this debate and to force transparency and yes, oversight. But it has to be better than just ‘blame the evil companies for exploiting us’ because that’s really a weak argument and engages few people. Telling people to not use Google and Facebook isn’t going to stick. I’m not citing you directly here, grum, I’m just talking about the general debate.

But campaigning for transparency, oversight and responsibility – that is a more positive and achievable goal, I think. For example – banning all political campaign postings on Facebook – that would be a good start, because of the ease with which it can be abused. They don’t need political postings on there to make a living, and the parties don’t need it either. Then something needs doing about the bot problem.

The implicit alternative to what you seem to be arguing is that if we DIDN’T have data gathering, everything would be fine.

First logical fallacy klaxon has sounded already…

🙄

I’ve read it along with a couple of her books – Shoshanna is a brilliant writer and anyone who doesn’t believe that data is the next oil needs to read this!

But campaigning for transparency, oversight and responsibility – that is a more positive and achievable goal, I think. For example – banning all political campaign postings on Facebook – that would be a good start, because of the ease with which it can be abused. They don’t need political postings on there to make a living, and the parties don’t need it either. Then something needs doing about the bot problem.

The solution is simple. Social media firms should be subject to the same laws as publishers or broadcasters. You couldn’t book a 30 second slot in the middle of Corrie or take out a full page ad in the Times to tell a pack of lies, so you shouldn’t be able to do it on Facebook either.

The Hidden Pursuaders is a good read for some history on advertising & manipulation.

First logical fallacy klaxon has sounded already…

You missed the key word ‘seem’. As in, that’s what your posts APPEAR to be implying, whether or not you intend them to be. I’m not asserting that you are intending it.

If you assert A is false then people always infer that not A is true, even if it’s not your point and it’s not a binary thing.

A pregnant woman’s dad found out they were pregnant before they even knew because he was bombarded with baby related products

That pronoun is so wrong there. 🥵

If you assert A is false then people always infer that not A is true, even if it’s not your point and it’s not a binary thing.

People always try to read things into what you’ve said and argue against that rather than what you’ve actually said? Isn’t that the straw man logical fallacy?

That pronoun is so wrong there.

It was a pretty clumsy sentence, are you meaning it sounds like dad and daughter were both pregnant? Not my intention!