So how close were we to guns pulled yesterday?

big_n_daft I meant FE not HE I reaised my mistake and edited before I saw your comment
Do an apprenticeship under 19 whilst employed and thatis what it cost us to train these people- in some areas some are quite cheap Business admin for example. Construction, engineering, motor vehicle for example are all expensive courses we fund via taxation to train employeees of a company. Some companies run their own training – Landrover , BAE with own tutors/deptartments and draw down the funding themselves so make a profit/surplus from the training as well.
We pay this but not HE

CITB is different as they do use a levvy system.

ernie, was winding up Ton.

then enlighten the heatherns

(Sic)

How do you know this, if you’ve never bin to uniservity?

big_n_daft I meant FE not HE I reaised my mistake and edited before I saw your comment
Do an apprenticeship under 19 whilst employed and thatis what it cost us to train these people- in some areas some are quite cheap Business admin for example. Construction, engineering, motor vehicle for example are all expensive courses we fund via taxation to train employeees of a company. Some companies run their own training – Landrover , BAE with own tutors/deptartments and draw down the funding themselves so make a profit/surplus from the training as well.
We pay this but not HE

CITB is different as they do use a levvy system.

national industrial competitiveness is quite important and worth supporting in a globalised manufacturing economy

😀

humour failure there …I see your name is quite apt 😆

beans………..fail. 😀

only cos you know I’m a confirmed union man.

8)

ton – Member
it seems to me that a large amount of the students that decide to go to university drop out after a couple of years.
i see these as lazy people who do not want to face up to the realities of life.

1/3 of my course failed the first year and never went back, 150% of the previous years work load had something to do with it and poor lecturing the rest. Changed quite few lives in a sink or swim manner

national industrial competitiveness is quite important and worth supporting in a globalised manufacturing economy

So no problem keeping business employees competitive or us paying for this but you think that having future graduates would add nothing to this same competitiveness and/or they should pay for it?
Seems odd you are happy to pay for the training for companies employees [ or lets call them citizens]but not directly for the people [citizens]they will one day employ.

with the elected government of the day

The ‘elected government of the day’ had no mandate at all for the destruction of the British coal industry…..it was never in their election manifesto. In fact, the government of the day repeatedly denied the accusation levelled at them by the NUM that they were committed to the wholesale destruction of the British coal industry. On the contrary, they emphasised that British coal had a bright future ahead if some unproductive pits were allowed to be closed. As we now know, they were lying.

Still, none of this has anything to do with Charles and Camilla being confronted by revolting students chanting “off with their heads”.

The ‘elected government of the day’ had no mandate at all for the destruction of the British coal industry.

You mean a bit like the fact that the like the Head of the NUM had no mandate to call a strike 😉

i think a certain woman always had a mandate..
take away the lions teeth, and the lion has no bite…… 😀

You mean a bit like the fact that the like the Head of the NUM had no mandate to call a strike

Not according to a previous court ruling they didn’t. According to the court, a ballot decision was not binding on the NUM, something which Scargill challenged.

But stick to Charles and Camilla’s ghastly experience will you.

In fact, the government of the day repeatedly denied the accusation levelled at them by the NUM that they were committed to the wholesale destruction of the British coal industry.

due to the fight turning political

as I said above is the energy had gone into fighting for retraining and inwards investment the results would have been different. However as the NUM depended on having miners as members they were hardly going to suggest they got retrained and join another union.

as soon as it became a battle of wills between Thatcher and Scargill there was only going to be one winner, the people who felt the pain were the communities in the frontline. What was the personnal cost to Scargill? the amount of money he’s personnally fleeced off the NUM I really do wonder why he is held in such regard

So no problem keeping business employees competitive or us paying for this but you think that having future graduates would add nothing to this same competitiveness and/or they should pay for it?
Seems odd you are happy to pay for the training for companies employees [ or lets call them citizens]but not directly for the people [citizens]they will one day employ.

some training/education contributes directly to competitiveness, some is a lot more marginal

funding traiing for people employed in manufacturing seems an excellent way of targetting spend for maximum effect

due to the fight turning political

Well I’m glad you don’t deny that the government of the day lied to both the miners and the rest of the British people…..it’s good to agree.

So what do you think of Charles and Camilla’s ghastly experience then ?

what you call maximum effect I call [often]subsidising multi million/billion pound multinational companies to train the staff to have the skills they require – they would need to do this anyway so why are we paying??
McD do this for catering as well for example a great benefit to us all clearly.
You would susidise business rather than people even very wealth foreign based ones
what about an additional tax on the comanies or employees here who have benfited fromtaxes paying the training?
Moat are not manufacturing FWIW

So what do you think of Charles and Camilla’s ghastly experience then ?

I thought the critics said the variety performance was OK 😉

personnally I don’t think it is worth all the publicity it’s getting. Lazy reportage of a minor incident, not helped by daft comments from the Met CC.

They won’t care, the protection officer in charge will get replaced in the next 3-6 months quietly.

Junkyard – Member
what you call maximum effect I call [often]subsidising multi million/billion pound multinational companies to train the staff to have the skills they require – they would need to do this anyway so why are we paying??
McD do this for catering as well for example a great benefit to us all clearly.
You would susidise business rather than people even very wealth foreign based ones
what about an additional tax on the comanies or employees here who have benfited fromtaxes paying the training?
Moat are not manufacturing FWIW

and nearly £7.7 Billion goes on “international aid”

you dont have to quote my entire text when you reply you know
No idea what International aid has to do with a discussion on educational funding but helping peole eat is a noble cause

What you want us to subsidise business ,let people pay for their own university education and LET poor foreign people starve as well 😯 and 😉

What you want us to subsidise business

yes for training

,let people pay for their own university education

the proposed scheme is a deferred tax system in effect and you don’t have to pay any of it back if you don’t earn above threshold

and LET poor foreign people starve as well

where did I say that?

helping peole eat is a noble cause

all the £7.7 Billion goes on feeding people?

where did I say that?

This is very true……. you threw in “and nearly £7.7 Billion goes on international aid” without any explanation whatsoever. You didn’t even give the vaguest clue of how it was in anyway relevant to the student protests.

I assumed by mentioning Internatuonal aid you were suggesting it was a waste of tax payers money . I apologise clearly you are aghast at just how little we spend on helping these people compared to the money we spend helping multi million pound generating multi nationals train their staff – which you support. Who despite the financial benefit to both the individual and the employer should NOT pay for this we should via taxes.
Sorry
FWIW debate works much better if you explain what you mean rather than leaving us to guess the relevance of a random fact.

the proposed scheme is a deferred tax system in effect and you don’t have to pay any of it back if you don’t earn above threshold

Do you work for Vince Cable? what a pointless pedantic semantic pin head dance.

Labour former Cabinet minister Jack Straw to cable “The central issue is the fact that the teaching grant is to be cut by 80% and the burden of that is to be transferred to students, and it’s justified by the Government’s assessment of the scale of the deficit.”

Mr Cable said Mr Straw had struck to the “heart of the debate” – which was “how to fund universities”.
who have they made pay then ? it is the students isnt it?

Amusingly of course those who have degrees already benefit as much as those who will never have them – or in other words a Mr D Cameron whose degree was paid for by the state I believe (a bit like some other MPs) will not have to pay the tax increase he would if current students enjoyed the same universal privileges he did. Of course he went into public service so that’s OK.

The Mods are armed? OMG!

Maybe the powers that be catalyse these peaceful protests so that the general public lose support for them?

Undoubtedly.

As usual the reasonable well thought out and well informed opinion gets lost in the STW appendage waving contest. There is some staggeringly Ill informed comments about police tactics on the day however. I still fail to see how violence towards the police, many of whom probably support the legitimate and peaceful protesters views, can be justified? Any violence or injury to anyone is regrettable. Most of the violence originated from groups who’s only aim was to injure police officers and destroy property. Thats not legitimate protest however you dress it up or however worthy you think the cause is. The police contained the crowd AFTER they had deviated from the agreed route in sight and sound of the houses of parliament and AFTER the numbers involved in acts of violence had reached levels that couldn’t be dealt with any other way. I think certain individuals are blinded by their own perceived intellectual brilliance, you could almost call it ideological extremism. And yes I was there.

Most of the violence originated from groups who’s only aim was to injure police officers and destroy property.

I don’t think anyone’s disputing this. However, the police acted in an inappropriate manner with unreasonable force, indiscriminately, towards far too many protestors who weren’t being violent, certainly not until they were unnecessarily provoked. The consensus of just about everyone I spoke to was that most of the violence came after police started kettling the demonstrators. More violence followed after the police told demonstrators that they could leave via certain routes. When people tried to do so, they were then prevented by police who used shields and truncheons to push them back into the kettle.

Which conflicts with your views somewhat.

I think certain individuals are blinded by their own perceived intellectual brilliance, you could almost call it ideological extremism.

This accusation could just as easily be levelled at yourself. Can you not see that? You have your view, others have theirs. Somewhere in all that, is the Truth.

Based on what I witnessed, the accounts of many others, and my own experience of other violent confrontations of this type, my view is that the police acted with excessive force.

The police cannot be seen as an innocent part in all this; they were complicit in provoking and carrying out violent acts. They must face the same scrutiny as anyone else. Their uniforms do not exempt them from being accountable for their actions.

No it can’t. I know I’m thick. I also never mentioned anyone being exempt from accountability. If any officer acted inappropriately they should get what’s coming.

Defenceless schoolgirls beaten by cops

I found this quite upsetting to read.

That’s appalling. It puts the Duchess of Cornwall’s poke in the ribs into perspective.

I can’t imagine why I was so annoyed, and stand corrected.

Couple of questions:

1. Why did the vast majority of the Police feel the need to remove their numbers and hide their faces?
I’m sure this is illegal – didn’t the Met promise this would never happen again after the Ian Tomlinson G20 fiasco?

2. The origin of the phrase ‘kettling’ is very disturbing.
I believe the word itself was introduced into the media by the Met themselves. Does anyone else think this process is a tactic designed to deliberately encourage violent behaviour on the part of the protesters, thus justifying a disproportionate response?
Kettles are designed to boil over, aren’t they?

Personally, as someone who has been on a few demo’s I think we all know that there will always be a violent minority on both sides.
Sadly, the current Police and Government tactic appears to be to focus on the minority as a means of distracting attention from the real issues.
We’ve seen this before. It never ends well:

…a word of explanation for the montage would be a good idea…

…a word of explanation for the montage would be a good idea…

Good point!

For those who are too young to remember, the photographs above refer to:

The Battle of Orgreave

The Battle of the Beanfield.

pictures from the Battle of the Beanfield
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beanfield

I still fail to see how violence towards the police, many of whom probably support the legitimate and peaceful protesters views, can be justified?

Imagine being held in an area for a period of time[6 hours +] against your will with no access to food, water or toilets, being policed by people in riot gear who will not let you leave or excercise your other democratic rights. If you complain to much about thsi they see you as an agitator and target you for arrest.
You really cannot se why this policy agitates people and why trapped people behave like animals? What a poor imagination you have. Any example of “kettling” not reuslting in violence towards those who have imprisoned the citizens?
It is almost like the state wants us to debate how ther eis no need for violence rather than the issue thay are protesting about.
edit:sorry for double reference was typing whilst RS posted

Imagine being held in an area for a period of time[6 hours +] against your will with no access to food, water or toilets, being policed by people in riot gear who will not let you leave or excercise your other democratic rights. If you complain to much about thsi they see you as an agitator and target you for arrest.

Been done to football fans for years, didn’t hear you complaining about their human rights!