Should Theresa May resign?

There is a caveat which is we don’t need 50% of the population educated to degree level merely to occupy desk space in call centres.

Tony’s idea that everyone should be able to go to university was **** insane. Everyone who is bright should go, but dubious qualifications just for the sake of it have no value.

Gove opposed the teaching of the science behind climate change in schools.

“Education Secretary Michael Gove has for several years been campaigning for climate change to be removed from the national curriculum for under 14-year-olds in the subject of geography. This has now moved forward and has officially been proposed by Gove’s department which has opened a consultation period on the issue.”

Gove’s voting record on environmental issues is chequered, at best:

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11858/michael_gove/surrey_heath/divisions?policy=1030

Including, voting to sell off the UK’s forests..

Plus, his photo on the web page makes him look like a ventriloquist’s dummy

It’s a policy which benefits the middle class

Explain that….?

Tony’s idea that everyone should be able to go to university was **** insane. Everyone who is bright should go, but dubious qualifications just for the sake of it have no value.

The problem is that as university became the chosen path, vocational training fell to the bottom of everyone’s interest list, college are either conveyor belts to uni or nothing. Apprenticeship are unloved the vision of the UK as a service economy is an easy enough trap to fall into from the Westminster bubble with the city distorting all.

Free uni took the limelight but the labour manifestos National Education Service had a big chunk about apprenticeships including maintenance grants for those in non uni FE
http://feweek.co.uk/2017/05/16/labour-manifesto-plans-for-fe-and-skills-unveiled/

The Tory manifesto repeated the same pledge it had grossly missed last time to get 3m young people into apprenticeships[/url] and make it easier for employers to use the apprentice levy ‘creatively’…

Breaking: Conservative manifesto pledges for FE and skills published

Excellent summary here

Britain: The End of a Fantasy

and will leave todays students having via their taxes to support a huge national debt

This is the correct way around.

^^ hasn’t worked in Greece has it ?

Michael Gove is back.

Jeremy hunt still health secretary, its like she’s angry at the electorate…..

Jam, explain why free tuition benefits the middle class please.

If anything, high tuition fees benefit the middle and upper classes, which is good for the Tories as it stops the “horrible poor” from getting into positions of power and influence

Excellent summary here

Yep that’s a very eloquent and perceptive analysis of exactly how hard we have **** ourselves.

Well not necessarily, kids from unstable (often poor) back grounds dont get to do A Levels whilst Middle class kids have stable homes, laptops, good internet and tutors if needed so get shoe horned in regardless of ability.

The only way it would work is to limit places, possibly by making qualification more difficult and them in some way smooth out the run up regardless of family background.

Well not necessarily, kids from unstable (often poor) back grounds dont get to do A Levels whilst Middle class kids have stable homes, laptops, good internet and tutors if needed so get shoe horned in regardless of ability.

Even if that’s true, it’s no reason to remove the option.

[sarcasm] Hey, why don’t we remove all kids from unstable backgrounds from the education system completely? That’ll free up some resources. [sarcasm]

Pretty sure this is a how Johnson greeted Goves return too

Two TV journalists have called the health secretary Jeremy ‘C***’ live on air

“Education Secretary Michael Gove has for several years been campaigning for climate change to be removed from the national curriculum for under 14-year-olds in the subject of geography. This has now moved forward and has officially been proposed by Gove’s department which has opened a consultation period on the issue.”

He proposed moving it to the science curriculum, probably the best place for it as we need scientists to help sort out the problem

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/climate-change-in-the-draft-national-curriculum

@slowoldman me too, my parents both worked and I got a full maintainence grant. I haven’t pulled up the drawbridge either and worked 25 years in fortunately well paid paye jobs. However that was in a time of largely 40% tax, once it went to 50 I left. If I had my time again I would not work in paye employment where you are a sitting duck. This is the fundamental difficulty with the study now pay later model, there is no certainty you’ll get the money back.

Well not necessarily, kids from unstable (often poor) back grounds dont get to do A Levels

What?

It may be the case that kids of drug addicted/alcoholic/gambling addict/other negative stereotype might not make it to A-level, but that’s a pretty crap argument against tuition fees.

There are large numbers of bright kids from stable but non-affluent backgrounds who could go to university. They are more likely to be put off by the cost of tuition fees. Middle class parents can help their kids out when things get tough, that’s less likely to be an option for poorer ones.

Not that tuition fee debt repayment is as much of a burden as people make out. But I’m still in favour of not having it in the first place.

I haven’t pulled up the drawbridge either and worked 25 years in fortunately well paid paye jobs. However that was in a time of largely 40% tax, once it went to 50 I left. If I had my time again I would not work in paye employment where you are a sitting duck.

You sound like you regret not pulling up the drawbridge earlier. Was that your point?

If I had my time again I would not work in paye employment where you are a sitting duck

Do you support IR35 legislation then?

big_n_daft – Member

He proposed moving it to the science curriculum, probably the best place for it as we need scientists to help sort out the problem

“Michael Gove has abandoned plans to drop climate change from the geography national curriculum.

The education secretary’s decision represents a victory for Ed Davey, the energy and climate change secretary, who has waged a sustained battle in Whitehall to ensure the topic’s retention.

The move to omit it from the new curriculum took on a symbolic status. Gove insisted it was part of his drive to slim an unwieldy curriculum down, to give teachers greater freedom to show their initiative.

It was claimed that climate change would appear under science. But environmentalists and science teachers claimed the omission would downgrade the topic and make its existence a matter of greater dispute.

There were also fears that pupils’ awareness of its importance would decline.“

Unable to link, but from here:

He proposed moving it to the science curriculum, probably the best place for it as we need scientists to help sort out the problem

Whatever his intentions, although his voting history suggests he is a “sceptic”, climate change is a cross-subject problem that affects us all, not just those that are scientifically inclined. It is essential it is taught within geography (both human and physical), geology, economics, sociology etc etc. At best, it showed poor judgement, at worst: a deliberate sidelining of an important issue, akin to what trump is trying to do in the US.

And from the BBC, here.

jambalaya – Member

Corbyn’s £11bn student loan “gibe away” was cruicial imo. It’s a policy which benefits the middle class and will leave todays students having via their taxes to support a huge national debt

Ah, looks like I have to repeat yet again that the extra cost today is £0 (or actually, should reduce admin costs) and the long-term cost is probably something like 40% of what you claim, due to the soaring rate of nonrepayment of loans. The major difference is that currently we sweep that cost under the rug so it can be dealt with in 25 years. It’s mostly just more honest accounting

Considering that we have chronic skills shortages in some sectors, but an education sector that thinks that graduates in arts and media have equal ’employment’ merit is why we’ve ended up with call centres full of unemployable graduates and yet certain sectors increasingly dependant on imported skills. What’s worse is the post-war workforce demographic is that significant numbers of retirees in the next 10-15 years, so if we’re not investing in training and education now, the economic impact in future years will be dire as businesses will offshore work

but an education sector that thinks that graduates in arts and media have equal ’employment’ merit is why we’ve ended up with call centres full of unemployable graduates and yet certain sectors increasingly dependant on imported skills.

Love to see some proof of that….

Edit with some stats
UK Film Industry was 1.45bn in 2014
http://weareukfilm.com/facts-and-stats
In contrast the budget for nuclear clean up at Sellafield is 2bn/year
http://www.sellafieldsites.com/2016/01/nda-secures-2bn-budget-for-sellafield-but-efficiency-remains-vital-to-delivering-success/

The music industry contributes 3.5bn to the economy
http://www.ukmusic.org/news/true-value-of-music-industry-to-uk-economy-revealed

How about the video game industry?
https://ukie.org.uk/research#Contribution

^^ hasn’t worked in Greece has it ?

Because Greece is directly comparable to ourselves?

Nothing will work if corruption and tax evasion is taken to that extreme.

There’s some truth in what dovebiker says, though it’s not as simple as it might seem.

Skills shortages emerge as a sector grows quicker than anticipated or the UK makes it financially advantageous to bring jobs to the UK (eg. film industry mentioned above).

So by their nature they are unpredictable.

The key thing is getting a party in government willing to invest in education for all, including FE and vocational stuff.

Can we think of anyone who had a really good manifesto in that regard?

Am I right in thinking that Theresa May’s coalition of chaos only has a majority of just two seats?

So If TM and that waste-of-space David Davis are in Brussels negotiating, then they just need one other MP to be a no-show (stuck in traffic on the M25, caught up in a British Airways computer meltdown, etc), and they will start losing votes in the HoC?

No the majority is about 13. 328 vs 315. Sinn Fein will be absent regardless.

And she brings back in Gove as Environmental Sec.

Hilariously hilarious.

There is something to be said about nails and coffins.

Looks like the 1922 committee are preparing her for a deep demise.

Gove’s inclusion in the cabinet shows that whoever is charge at Tory HQ (certainly not May), really doesn’t understand what went wrong.
They’ll continue to make exactly the same mistakes and continue to fall.

Second election is a certainty.
How much did the last one cost – 100m or something? Unbelievable.

Gove’s inclusion in the cabinet shows that whoever is charge at Tory HQ (certainly not May), really doesn’t understand what went wrong.

agreed. great innit?

From the BBC:

Mr Davis said that while the Tory election campaign had been disappointing, Mrs May was a “formidable prime minister” and accused people speculating about her leadership of “the absolute height of self-indulgence”.

Really?
I think the height of self indulgence is calling an unecessary election and then ignoring the result.

David Davis has been unbelievable arrogant over the past few months in his dealings with the media.

They can’t do another election – not enough time before the A50 cut off and Corbyn might well win.

In my opinion of course and I’m often wrong. Particularly with predicting decisions made by mad folk.

Next election will not be the pm’s choice (though it may be that of some of the back benches)

“a bad prime minister is better than no prime minister”

that’s how it was described on R4 this morning. good to see tory self preservation taking precedence…

@mike maybe, maybe not. She could maufacture one over the “Brexit Bill” as a tap for Labour or simply call one late in 2018 to ensure the public approve / decline her final deal (or force a WTO Brexit) ?

The EU are rightly concerned that negotiations now are MUCH more tricky, if May doesn’t get what she wants she can oress the GE button. IMO it would be inpossible for Labour to stand on a manifesto commitment to pay a big Brexit Bill and a large ongoing budget contribution.

Rusty Davies and May have been spot on in their approach. The “Brexit Bill” is a lokitical try on with no legal basis. We owe £36bn less £16bn in rebates up until 2019 then as per Law Lords A50 terminates all budget contributions. May is absokutely correct to say we will NOT sign up to a bad deal. We will take WTO tariffs as per the EU’s largest trading partners

WTO annecdote. So last weekend I was helping some Swiss friends get their boat setup for a UK regatta. Local sales agent was F-ing and blinding about Brexit. So I looked up WTO tariffs on yachts. 0.8% (typical range 0-2%). So a £100k new yacht would be a maximum of £800 more expensive due to tariffs. Remember VAT is £20k. Now currency moves are much more significant but they can go both ways of course

WTO tariffs are not “no deal”. They are the same deal as the US etc have

So last weekend I was helping some Swiss friends get their boat setup for a UK regatta.

😆

Man of the people