Shooting in Paris; casualties reported. Hope this isn't what it sounds like.

You can always rely on the Daily Mail to stoop that little bit lower than everyone else….

German officials say no explosives have been found and no arrests made in Hanover

False flag alarm. “Apparently”

propaganda meets counter propaganda.
i wondered watching the footy tonight what the broadcasters had been instructed to show if worst fears were realised?

more seriously, sounds like the number of ‘tip offs’ to the german police cranked right up this evening

I think I will go with the forum consensus though and just ignore your views but hey thanks for the balance

Happy to help. It never ceases to amaze me how you proclaim the STW consensus, is that a bit like being a moderator ? I can’t count the number of times you’ve said you don’t read or ignore what I have to say but then spend time quoting me and commenting on why I’ve had to say. Did you watch the ViceNews video, if you can’t manage the whole thing the first few minutes will give you a good feel for it

@just5 indeed it’s very depressing. I do wonder why the mainstream news services don’t run these films. The Vicenews piece on IS is also excellent Youtube Link

Only the dead see the end of war.

I think there are many more attacks to come in the Western world. Religion is just a catalyst for this. I think it boils down to greed, territory and the human instinct to survive. In the 32 years I lived in Northern Ireland (from birth) not once, ever, did anyone ever talk about religion being the excuse for the murders.

I watched one of the IS videos on the Vice News youtube channel, linked above. Watched the father of a young child tell him to tell the camera that infidels in Belgium must die, is truly heartbreaking. The kids body language tells it all. It’s a very worrying time ahead.

@just5 indeed it’s very depressing. I do wonder why the mainstream news services don’t run these films. The Vicenews piece on IS is also excellent Youtube Link

Possibly because mainstream services try to retain balance,unlike you?

Guardian – Paris attacks: police say two dead in St-Denis raid targeting ‘mastermind’

The Paris prosecutor’s office has released a statement about the raids this morning (Wed 18 Nov) that five people have been arrested as a result of the police raid in St-Denis this morning:

One woman who was holed up in the apartment is dead after she detonated an explosive device.

Three people who were in the apartment have been arrested.

Two other people were also arrested separately – a man and a woman who were “nearby”.

@duckman, there isn’t an ounce of balance in hiding reality from the public. Political correctness will not serve unwell here. Fundamentalist teaching exists across the Midcle East, education from a young age about Jihadism and Matyrdom is in my opinion not unusual. We in the West need to understand what we are dealing with.

Two suspects dead in St Denis this morning. As per @sands link we need to understand and appreciate that women are every bit as radical and dangerous. Couabillie’s wife was seen to be his radicalising influence, very much a Lady MacBeth character

We in the West need to understand what we are dealing with.

Good luck with that, we’ve been unsuccessful at that and attempting to change the middle east culture for thousands of years.

I’m more concerned about whether I should be taking my kids to winter wonderland aka densely crowded area in a capital city in celebration of a christian-based festival.

there isn’t an ounce of balance in hiding reality from the public. Political correctness will not serve unwell here.

By all means lets not hide things from the public. I assume your yearning for transparency includes the countless atrocities committed by the Israelis in the occupied territories? I seem to remember there was a video not long ago of a teenage Palestinian civilian being left to bleed to death on the pavement after being shot by the IDF. I don’t recall that being on the evening news. The trouble with ‘balance’, and the ‘truth’ is that it goes both ways.

There are none so blind as those that cannot see. 😐

@dazh. Did you watch the video report, understand its sanctioned by Al_Nusra, they freely gave permission to publish it ? Feel free to lobby for that coverage, I think you’ll find very many people will see the reality of living surrounded by Islamic fundamentalists intent on eradicating the state of Israel. Let people see clearly both sides and then they can make their minds up.

Hollande confirms broder controls have been re-introduced and house arrests will be put in place.

ViceNews has an interview with a very intelligent medical student with impecable English who says

Muslims are opressed in France because France is a secular country so we cannot practice our religion.

There really is no hope with this sort of attitude from what I am sure many would call a moderate inidivual, living in France, probably born in France and taking advantage of the education and employment opportuies which exist in a liberal inclusive secular country

ambalaya

ViceNews has an interview with a very intelligent medical student with impecable English who says

Muslims are opressed in France because France is a secular country so we cannot practice our religion.

There really is no hope with this sort of attitude from what I am sure many would call a moderate inidivual, living in France, probably born in France and taking advantage of the education and employment opportuies which exist in a liberal inclusive secular country

It’s just one guy’s opinion, doubtless included because it’s a potential talking point. Vice news like every other news outlet has an entertainment component. An editor chose to include it, and likely to exclude others.

If a Muslim in France is despondent it’s probably because he identifies with other Muslims in other parts of the world who face real battles and it colours his outlook. It doesn’t mean “there’s no hope”.

I can recall any number of incidents throughout the troubles which didn’t directly affect any of my family or friends but by virtue of the fact that say, a catholic civilian was killed by british soldiers they felt a very strong empathy for the victim.

Of course he can practice his religion, just not the bits that involve cutting off hands, stoning to death, flogging, pushing off high buildings… . Exactly the same applies to Christians who would like to apply the sexist, homophobic and barbaric verses in Leviticus. A secular state is not anti-religious it just sets limits to what people can do in the name of religion. My son can wear a death metal T-shirt to school but if he turned up with Jesus on cross on his T-shirt and refused to hide the image he’d be sent home.

It will be interesting to see what comes from all of this.
There’s obviously more willpower to do something to take on IS and perhaps more opportunity for cooperation, a Europe wide FBI? certainly better intelligence sharing. Even Russia felt comfortable admitting that it lost a plane to terrorism.
What that translates to now is uncertain, Cameron will probably win his vote to start bombing Syria this time (tho this time bombing the rebels, not helping them).
Ultimately that will kill more civilians than militants in the areas IS controls, generating more Jihadis (in the west and in middle east) and destabilising the region further?
So that means a ground war is necessary and if successful setting up a stable competent, non corrupt, replacement with big military support, just like we didn’t do in Iraq or Afghanistan.

All of that had to be dealt with plus their ability to focus on the millions of dissafected potential terrorists throughout the western world

I’m not optomistic

Also calling them daesh or whatever just seems silly, theycontrol a huge area of the middle East, raise taxes, have courts and laws of their own, and a potent and developed internet presence they are a state by most definitions even if they are ****

tho this time bombing the rebels, not helping them

@kimbers, agree with every single word, but the above really made me smile. As much as you can smile in a situation like this.

ho this time bombing the rebels, not helping them

It is odd that no one seems to bring this up that we have swapped sides about who we want to bomb in the country . Sort of sums up the “fluid” principles of our morally superior foreign policy.

FWIW even I accept that they are a force we just cannot ignore and we almost certainly need to have a direct conflict with them

We also then need to work very hard to make a workable peace. We dont do very well in that respect as Iran, afghanistan, Libya all show so I am not optimistic we will achieve good things.

It is odd that no one seems to bring this up that we have swapped sides

Maybe not in your circles but its mentioned every time the subject of bombing comes up in conversation IME and twice in this thread.

We would have to be prepared to have infantry there for at least a generation, if not two, possibly even more. That’s how long it would take to build stable institutions from the mess that we’d make – government both national and local, libraries, schools, roads, clean water & sewage, public buildings, etc etc etc.

Given that your average politician can’t see beyond the length of the existing election cycle, I struggle to see how we’d have the collective stomach for the whole thing. But it’s either that or blow them and tens/hundreds of thousands of civilians (or collateral damage as some STWers refer to them) to smithereens now, look at the pictures every day on the news/web then do it again in ten years time, repeating ad infinitum (or until the oil runs out).

I watched one of the IS videos on the Vice News youtube channel, linked above. Watched the father of a young child tell him to tell the camera that infidels in Belgium must die, is truly heartbreaking. The kids body language tells it all. It’s a very worrying time ahead.

What I don’t get is how you view this as heartbreaking and wrong – an example of dangerous extremism. But UK society does something very similar and nobody’s that bothered.

The armed forces in the UK are idolised. We are one of, if not the only, country in Europe to allow the military to visit/recruit in schools.

Our media constantly pumps out the idea that British soldiers are brave, honorable and heroic. We have Armed Forces fun days for all the family.

There are few things more respected in Britain than a dead or wounded soldier.

To fight and kill for Queen and country is something we actively push young people to do. And it’s these young people who carry out the bombings and invasions of foreign countries.

Who are the extremists?

Who are the extremists?

Is it the ones lobbing homosexuals off buildings? Burning people in cages? Cutting heads of with knives? The ones with slave markets?

Yeah, it is.

What that translates to now is uncertain

As always, Paul Mason nails it. I’m pretty certain it’s going to lead to another ground war, on a massive scale. My only doubt is that the cost of this, and the subsequent cost of rebuilding Syrian and Iraqi society afterwards, is a cost that Western states are either unable or unwilling to bare.

EDIT: At a recent talk given by Paul Mason, he said he’d been told by a senior person in the govt that they knew what it would take to solve the ISIS problem, and it involved something in the region of 200,000 troops, 100,000 engineers, aid workers and social workers, and would cost upwards 40 billion quid.

deadlydarcy – Member

We would have to be prepared to have infantry there for at least a generation, if not two, possibly even more. That’s how long it would take to build stable institutions from the mess that we’d make – government both national and local, libraries, schools, roads, clean water & sewage, public buildings, etc etc etc.

Or……

then start from scratch? Thats got to be a bit easier, surely?

Does Iraq exist outside western imaginations. Its Kurds, Sunnis and Shias. Handing the whole lot over to Shias is what caused the Sunni backlash and ISIS have only been able to take over largely Sunni areas.

Much as I despise ISIS leaving ISIS in control of the Sunni areas might be the least worst outcome, unless anyone is aware of a stable moderate set of Sunnis prepared to lead the Sunnis areas.

Funnily enough, it came out of Homeland (the TV series for those who don’t know), but the best solution I’ve heard yet:

Asked what he would do, Quinn suggests 200,000 soldiers on the ground and an equal number of doctors and teachers.

And to my mind that’d work – it’d make a huge mess but would largely irradicate IS after which you’d help sort out the country by getting people healthy, educated and safe. People in that situation don’t typically become extremists.

Of course, there’s no way in hell that the West will pay for that. We’ll send in the troops, do some high profile fighting to get cities back ‘in control’ while IS largely hide away back in the population then do what we’ve done in Afghanistan/Iraq/etc – ie not really fix things and then leg it once we can claim ‘Mission Accomplished’ irrespective of the truth on the ground or the millions of new sympathisers with anti-western causes because they’ve lost their friends/families/livelihood/homes/etc.

And to my mind that’d work

You think 200k soldiers could protect 200k (or even 100k) doctors and teachers?

We would have to be prepared to have infantry there for at least a generation, if not two, possibly even more. That’s how long it would take to build stable institutions from the mess that we’d make – government both national and local, libraries, schools, roads, clean water & sewage, public buildings, etc etc etc.

No one mentions the success stories though. S.Korea being probably #1, Germany? Japan*? a whole list of African countries, might not be democratic paradises but Sierra Leon is a lot more stable than it once was, and the Balkans are pretty much on a level footing with any other former eastern block country.

Not saying war is a good thing. But it’s not the common factor in the mess. The common factor in Iraq/Afganistan is the Taliban, Al-Queda, ISIS etc and the far more Guerrilla nature of the war. But what’s the alternative? They’re not memebers of the UN, we can’t ask them nicely or impose sanctions.

*although there’s some interesting denialism going on in the younger generations.

Is it the ones lobbing homosexuals off buildings? Burning people in cages? Cutting heads of with knives? The ones with slave markets?

I agree. Those are all examples of extremism.

But personally, I would also include invading, bombing and destroying foreign contries as a form of extremism.

Also the behaviour of those soldiers who tortured and humiliated prisoners in Abu Ghraib, they display a similar extremist mindset.

Along with the streams of comments on UK news sites calling for people to be wiped out, annhilated, nuked, slaughtered etc.

You think 200k soldiers could protect 200k (or even 100k) doctors and teachers?

Well, I can’t claim to be a military tactician so I don’t know if the figures are spot on but it’s the general concept that I think is right.

5thElefant – Member

Who are the extremists?

Is it the ones lobbing homosexuals off buildings? Burning people in cages? Cutting heads of with knives? The ones with slave markets?

Yeah, it is.

Would you rather have your head cut off, or your house blown up with you and your family in it, your country destroyed and raped of it’s natural resources and a foreign company profit from the rebuilding?

If you treat people like monsters, they’ll become monsters.

@Nemesis – I think everyone would agree that you could always do more nation building, and that it could have played more of a part in the planning for eg. Afghanistan, but if you take the fact that we were unable to even secure and protect the limited aid and infrastructure that we did do, I’m not sure that you can come to any conclusion that more of it would have seen greater long term success or delivered anything but more targets for the bastards who sought to undermine it.

Would you rather have your head cut off, or your house blown up with you and your family in it

It’s odd isn’t it how some people talk about bombs as if they’re somehow benign methods of killing people as opposed to horrific and sadistic methods like beheadings. I’m pretty sure a 1000lb bomb dropped by a plane is capable of doing far more horrific damage than a crazy man with a knife. I often wonder if cartoons are responsible for this wilful ignorance.

Lots of loony conspiracy white-flag nonsense creeping into facebook today. Not sure who I dislike more, them or the out-of-the-closet racists with the anti-muslim chat.

Would you rather have your head cut off, or your house blown up with you and your family in it, your country destroyed and raped of it’s natural resources and a foreign company profit from the rebuilding?

If you treat people like monsters, they’ll become monsters.

So how do you explain that these “behaviours” have been present for around 1,400 years now – pretty much since the Shia and Sunni split?

That’s a good 1,250 years before oil was even discovered, let alone foreign companies profiting from it – it also doesn’t explain why these same extreme / medieval behaviours are to be found in more than 40 countries now, even those in which oil has never been found and which have never been involved in western military action.

@ninfan – a fair point but I think that if there was good post-war support then you would see a gradual reduction in the violence – people are more protective of the status quo if it’s a positive one for more people. Obviously though the reduction would be slow and hence the whole issue that really it’s a massively long term ‘project’ (for want of a better word) and would cost a huge amount which it’s clear we don’t have the appetite for.

Jus5mins are you saying that all Muslims are as extreme as ISIS? coz if you are you are just very misguided,
You can say that many Muslim states have extremely conservative values, but homosexuality was illegal here until recently, and we’ve only just got rid of the death penalty.

Jus5mins are you saying that all Muslims are as extreme as ISIS? coz if you are you are just very misguided,
You can say that many Muslim states have extremely conservative values, but homosexuality was illegal here until recently, as was the death penalty.

Saudi is just a stable version of ISIS, the slave markets are dressed up as job agencies and they hardly ever crucify people. Iran just uses forced sex changes for homosexuality (and hanging), so positively liberal in comparison.

Funny how the apologists brand us as extremists and extremists as conservatives.

Excellent book which makes a very powerful argument that the exit from Iraq was rushed and mismanaged by a President who was focused purely on “getting out” as part of his legacy.

@kimbers – Islamic Fundamentalists are in a minority, but is it 1%, 5%, 10%, 25% ? As Cameron said today at PMQs it is fact that these fundamentalists take their guidance and direction from the written word in the Koran.

As Cameron said today at PMQs it is fact that these fundamentalists take their guidance and direction from the written word in the Koran.

Pretty much every bunch of nut-jobs throughout history has quoted one holy book or another to justify their actions. Plenty of people used the bible as justification for all kinds of atrocities. You can interpret these things pretty much any way you like.