Home Forums Chat Forum Scottish independence- where do you stand?

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  • Scottish independence- where do you stand?
  • piemonster
    Free Member

    Mol, but as noted before not the Shetlands!!! (if wee eck is to be believed)

    /pedant mode on

    There is no Shetlands, just Shetland

    /pedant mode off

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    +1 Wot Shackleton just said.

    The best hope I can see is a strong Yes minority that ensures we stay in the union but raises the issue of Devo Max again.

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    molgrips – Member 
    Think that’s just the variation of life, different people different place, different needs, just so happens some people think that it would better as a smaller single unit
    My point is that the current UK has lots of regions with different needs. The needs vary according to socio economic profile, not ethnicity.

    Some things are better on a larger scale, some on a smaller scale. That’s why we all need devo max, and that’s why I’d vote no, if I could.

    Oh and you know damn well you’d just be moaning about bias towards the Central belt instead of Westminster. The rich folk in Edinburgh aren’t much closer to Highland sheep farmers than the ones in London. Only similarity is that they are Scottish. Which goes back to the jingoism argument.the needs don’t vary due to ethnicicty much, but these place do vary geographicly.

    Aye somethings are done better under another scale, but tbh, these larger scale things in the future need to be european(look at the chinese engineering projects too big for britain to match), so in europe, I’d rather scotland had an independent voice. Plus Scotland will work with England in loads of capacities post indepedence, what are England going to do, go in a huff and not come out to play? Never speak to us again?

    Re bias towards the Central Belt, aye that may happen, Central belt will be much more answerable than westminster ever will be. Plus the Central Belt isn’t in a vaccum in Scotland, it’s where the vast majority live, but it also has connections that westminster doesn’t have, so it’d be a much more immediate relationship with the other parts of Scotland, so aye possible, but the other parts of scotland gain access to a more controllable government, that’s what it’s also about, the level of interactivity and response of government.

    ChrisL
    Full Member

    GrahamS – Member
    The alternative, for me, is Devo Max.
    And since that isn’t being offered, the status quo.

    Basically I think we’re stronger standing together (and I’m pro-european for much the same reason).
    But that doesn’t mean we can’t self-govern.

    I think that’s mostly my viewpoint too. More can be achieved when working together, though a sort-of federal UK where things that can be handled locally are devolved locally would be my vague and woolly preference.

    I have English parents but was born in Scotland and have lived all my life here. I’ll be voting no. It would not be unfair to say that my encounters with people who will never consider me remotely Scottish have coloured my opinions in this debate.

    ads678
    Full Member

    For me the argument about Westminster rule rings very true, but is an argument for increased powers for the Scottish government (Devo Max), not a complete dissolution of the union.

    Or an argument for a proper voting system, one that actually represents the populus, rather than the one we have now the clearly doesn’t. Rather than splitting up the union we should should be trying to sort this place out.

    For the record I neither hate the scots or want the uk to break up, but i really am bored with the politics of this country. I am 37 and have voted in every election I could but my vote has always been pointless because of where I live. People are scared of it but we need PR. IMO of course.

    Edit: apologies for going slightly off topic!!

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I think that’s mostly my viewpoint too. More can be achieved when working together, though a sort-of federal UK where things that can be handled locally are devolved locally would be my vague and woolly preference.

    Yep. The hill farmers of Scotland, Wales, NI, Yorkshire, Devon all need representing. The post-industrial areas of Clydeside, Tyneside, the Valleys all need representing. The rich suburbs of London, Edinburgh and.. er.. Cardiff.. all need representing too.

    I’d rather Scotland stayed with us and helped provide a better UK than simply quit and leave us to the Westminster Wolves tbh. We need PR, we need social policies, and if the Scots leave we’ll lose a lot of allies!

    CountZero
    Full Member

    Scottish independence- where do you stand?

    On a heap of indifference. I have no influence on whatever happens, so I’ll just watch from the sidelines as everyone ties themselves in knots over it.

    rebel12
    Free Member

    The worrying thing for Scotland is what happens when the North Sea oil dries up? What then? Will they rely on selling kilts to American tourists? Perhaps whiskey to the Chinese? Can they convince people the world over to drink Irn Bru rather than Coke Cola? Will the proclaimers make a worldwide comeback?

    Seriously though it seems like the SNP have massively underestimated the amount of work, money and upheaval it will take to create an independant Scotland. It’s likely that if the YES vote prevails then the people of Scotland will be dealing with turmoil, uncertainty and disruption for the next couple of decades. It may perhaps be worth it in the very long term, but short to medium term I can see it being absolute mayhem. Not really the secure, stable base that Alex Salmond needs to create the solid growth in the Scottish economy that his manifesto is based on.

    Scotland, is it really worth cutting off your nose despite your face?

    piemonster
    Free Member

    It’d be interesting to see an independent analysis of the effects of Scotland’s ageing population on all this.

    Something the UK will face regardless of the yes/no vote. But is this believably taken into account with the Yes camp predictions?

    piemonster
    Free Member

    While I’m thinking about it, does anyone have any thoughts on whether EU country leaderships might cause problems for Scotland, in order to deter separatist movements within their own borders?

    Not suggesting that is the case. But their are a few that might have the motive.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/22/europe-separatist-movements

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    Saw this and thought it might be relevant for those wanting a more considered response to Wee Ecks white paper.

    http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/we-check-the-snps-maths

    stevomcd
    Free Member

    All of the points above appear to be finding fault based on post-independence arrangements. The table clearly states that it is based on current constitutional arrangements.

    F for reading comprehension.

    bigjim
    Full Member

    The worrying thing for Scotland is what happens when the North Sea oil dries up? What then? Will they rely on selling kilts to American tourists? Perhaps whiskey to the Chinese? Can they convince people the world over to drink Irn Bru rather than Coke Cola? Will the proclaimers make a worldwide comeback?

    Seriously though it seems like the SNP have massively underestimated the amount of work, money and upheaval it will take to create an independant Scotland. It’s likely that if the YES vote prevails then the people of Scotland will be dealing with turmoil, uncertainty and disruption for the next couple of decades. It may perhaps be worth it in the very long term, but short to medium term I can see it being absolute mayhem. Not really the secure, stable base that Alex Salmond needs to create the solid growth in the Scottish economy that his manifesto is based on.

    Scotland, is it really worth cutting off your nose despite your face?

    Yeah I’m pretty much with you on this. Investment in decommissioning is already happening but even that will be relatively short term and it is clear the renewables industry will never be what they claimed it would be. I just get the impression the people driving independence are doing it for their own satisfaction at the cost of the long term future of the country, and yet to see anything of substance to prove otherwise. Seems a bit of a shame really.

    althepal
    Full Member

    The problem is theres so many unanswered questions and points. Mostly caused by the Westminster governments refusal to even contemplate entering into any sort of debate about the make up of a post-independence British Isles.. prob because they know that if they actually start taking the prospect seriously other folk might do the same. Plus uncertainty works in their favour..
    At the end of the day, we’re all adults, and it would be in everyone’s interest (if there was a yes vote) if we could sort shit like this out would it not? And that goes for RUK and The EU.

    buzz-lightyear
    Free Member

    If they wanna go, go. But I want to take my holidays there still.

    athgray
    Free Member

    Serious question on the EU. Does any other county of relative size to an independent Scotland have the same opt outs, veto’s or rebates being demanded by the SNP?
    Would EU member states be happy for Scotland to continue to receive the UK rebate from CAP due to the UK’s relatively low agricultural sector in the 80’s, whilst receiving greater subsidies due to Scotlands greater farming sector going forward? Sounds like it should be one or the other.
    Salmond today states that we will be welcomed with open arms due to an abundance of fish and wind. I do think most member states would be happy enough with, however may not tempt the veto wielding Spanish, who really should know their place.
    To put it mildly, as much as I find our Dear Leader disagreeable, I do admire his gallus.

    piemonster
    Free Member

    I think they actually want an increase on CAP

    gordimhor
    Full Member

    I honestly doubt that Spain would use the veto as they want to continue to fish in (what would be) Scottish waters. If Scotland was not ableto get membership of the EU there would probably be quite a lot of uncontrolled fishing in Scottish waters which would quickly be overfished thus leaving everyone including Spanish fishermen worse off than they were when they started. Just my opinion.

    athgray
    Free Member

    Fair enough gordimhor, however Spain has to weigh up the requirement of it’s fishermen against other independence politics closer to home. We could be used as an example by Spain to show Catalunya.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    rebel12 – Member

    The worrying thing for Scotland is what happens when the North Sea oil dries up? What then?

    Then we will no longer have the thing that makes us considerably more prosperous than the uk, and will only be roughly as prosperous. O noes.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I just get the impression the people driving independence are doing it for their own satisfaction

    Yes.. I get the impression that the die-hard nats want their FREEEEDDOOOOOOMMM and are a) massaging the figures to justify it and b) leveraging current electoral dissatisfaction to get other people on board.

    Seems like most Yes voters are focusing on point b.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    The most interesting thing about the Spanish PMs statement last night is what he didn’t say. He gave his (unqualified) opinion on the Scottish membership process. That goes into the pile of other unqualified assessments on both sides of the argument (the Spanish Foreign Minister has previously said that the Scottish and Catalan cases are not similar). What he could have said is that Spain would veto any Scottish membership application – i.e. something he has the power to do.

    Meanwhile, I’m surprised that David Cameron and the No campaign haven’t made more of an issue of the circumstances that might apply if iScotland was in the EU and rUK left. I reckon that would introduce a lot of border/currency issues – certainly more than would be the case if both remained members of the EU. Of course, in order to increase the effectiveness of that scare story, he’d have to put it forward as a genuine probability – and that’s not something he can do and keep the Tory party together.

    As has already been pointed out, only the EU Commissioners can give a definitive answer on Scotlands membership and they will only give that answer in response to a direct question from the UK Government. What possible reason could the UK Govt have for not seeking the answer to that question?

    athgray
    Free Member

    I agree scotroutes that Scotland in the EU and UK outside would be bad for both. Although the yes camp say Scotland does not decide elections due to people voting differently. I feel that as the majority of Scotland would vote for the EU, we could make a difference in any in/out referendum. That is a stage down the line. We could have another referendum if UK in the EU goes pear shaped.

    In the meantime if UK style membership described by Salmond is what we want, then the logical way of getting exactly that is to vote no next year.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Ah – I hadn’t thought about that one. I guess it could make a difference if the voting was marginal

    I guess there’s also a risk that any rUK/EU negotiations in the future (such as envisaged by DC) might be less favourable for the rUK once Scotland is independent? With a smaller constituency would rUK get less voting power/delegates etc?

    In the meantime if UK style membership described by Salmond is what we want, then the logical way of getting exactly that is to vote no next year.

    Not quite sure what you’re getting at here?

    epicyclo
    Full Member

    molgrips – Member
    Yes.. I get the impression that the die-hard nats want their FREEEEDDOOOOOOMMM…

    Yup, it will be nice to live as a citizen in a democracy rather than as a subject in a country with a “ruling class” (as admitted by one senior Tory the other day).

    Nought wrong with freedom, plenty wrong with the alternative.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I didn’t say freedom, I said FREEEEDDOOOOOOMMM!

    It’s different.

    athgray
    Free Member

    The point I am trying to make is the SNP seek to join institutions we are already members of mainly on terms we pretty much have, i,e currency/Europe/Nato (I will concede slight difference with regard to nuclear weapons). I would not disagree that rUK/EU conditions should be renegotiated .
    Sounds then like Scotland and rUK could be in Europe on less favouable terms.”Better Together” I say.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Gotcha. So the EU question is “how bad a deal would iScotland have to get before it’s worse than we already have“? You’re back to “re-directed” farming subsidies, less-favourable fishing negotiations etc. I guess these are the big imponderables 😐

    TroutWrestler
    Free Member

    English, living in Scotland for 20 years, and I’m a no. The crazy currency proposals and the naive NATO & EU assumptions from the SNP leave them with absolutely no credibility. IMO that haven’t done too bad a job running the country, but the independence thing is totally unsustainable.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    athgray – Member

    In the meantime if UK style membership described by Salmond is what we want, then the logical way of getting exactly that is to vote no next year.

    Er, I don’t know if you noticed but there’s a small matter of the UK anti-EU referendum coming up. If we want to be in the EU, there’s less risk to that as an independent scotland.

    Course, there’s no certainty which way the UK will vote on that, but we know very well that England is more conservative, more right wing, more euroskeptic and more insular than Scotland on such matters, and that the UK very often gets what England wants.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    The UK gets what the UK votes for. Why is Scotland different? Plenty of left-wing/socialist/post industrial/rural etc people in the rest of the UK. It’s back to ethnic divisions again isn’t it?

    The only reason any of this exists is because Scottish think of themselves as different, because Scotland used to be a different country.

    athgray
    Free Member

    I look at the UK deal scotroutes which isn’t bad although I am no expert. I try to see how thinks affect the UK and not those North of Berwick/Carlisle. May get flamed for saying this, but I am as happy to see Northsea oil help those in Newcastle, Liverpool, Birmingham, and even London, as Edinburgh and Aberdeen. We may all seek to benefit from shale gas deposits across Northern England in future.

    I would repeat what I posted when George Galloway was told to go back to England from a Scottish taxi driver. He asked if he did not feel closer ties with a taxi driver in say Doncaster than with the Duke of Buccleuch.

    I have a PM I didn’t vote for, a First Minister I really don’t like, an MP and MSP I didn’t elect, and Uk and Holyrood governments I don’t support. I don’t however feel dissaffected by either. I can tell what I will end up with if I vote No. 🙂

    Northwind
    Full Member

    molgrips – Member

    The UK gets what the UK votes for. Why is Scotland different? Plenty of left-wing/socialist/post industrial/rural etc people in the rest of the UK. It’s back to ethnic divisions again isn’t it?

    Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for. No more complicated than that. I like to think the English voters aren’t daft enough to take us out of europe but hey, precedents aren’t great.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for. No more complicated than that.

    Just to check (I know I have been a way for a while) but don’t you have a Coalition Government made up of Lib Dems and Tories? Wasn’t the previous Government Labour which the majority of Scotland did seem to vote for and wasn’t the last Prime Minister Scottish?

    of course having been out the country for a couple of year I’m only going off memories…

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    molgrips – Member
    The UK gets what the UK votes for. Why is Scotland different? Plenty of left-wing/socialist/post industrial/rural etc people in the rest of the UK. It’s back to ethnic divisions again isn’t it?

    Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for. No more complicated than that.[/quote]This is only an issue if you accept that England and Scotland (and Wales and NI) are in someway distinct from one another. If the Union had been done properly way back then, we would be one nation now, not a union of nations (but then it wouldn’t be a union, right?)

    gordimhor
    Full Member

    Molgrips I reckon most Scots on all sides of this debate know Scotland is a country

    grum
    Free Member

    Scotland votes in 1 Tory mp, Wales 8, we got the tory government england and only england voted for.

    You mean apart from the 16% of the Scottish electorate who voted Tory (about the same as the SNP)?

    Only 36% of a very low turnout voted Tory in the UK as a whole – not really fair to say that ‘England voted for’ the Tories.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    mikewsmith – Member

    Just to check (I know I have been a way for a while) but don’t you have a Coalition Government made up of Lib Dems and Tories?

    In practice, no, as we have a coalition government that does pretty much exactly what the Tories want to do.

    grum – Member

    You mean apart from the 16% of the Scottish electorate who voted Tory (about the same as the SNP)?

    Yep, exactly- 4th choice in Scotland yet still running the country. That’s some mandate to rule isn’t it.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    But Northwind do you not concede that by default you must have got what you voted when you got 3 terms of a labour government?

    athgray
    Free Member

    You could validly use that argument about the Tories Northwind, however the argument has been used that successive governments have subjugated the will of a nation. Everyone forgets the momentous election in 1997 that brought us 13 years of Scottish born Labour PM’s. These Scots tooks us to war in Afghanistan, went into another war in Iraq based on false claims put forward by another Scot. Still didn’t stop us voting Labour MP’s.
    I think middle England Tory voters may have more grievance to suggest Scotland took them into two unpoular wars.

    Beat me to it mike.

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