Scottish independence- where do you stand?

Yeh, but Putin looks cool with a gun. Which levels it out.

Yep wouldnt have posted my last in Russia.Fairly confident Wee Eck wont shoot me, though the image of him moonfaced,shirtless and carrying a rifle is …unattractive 😀

Yes on character traits, no on policy. Both are egotistical and arrogant and and totalitarian leaders. See Jim Sillars assessment. Salmond is a far shrewder and astute operator who as long as he has not yet achieved his ultimate goal will tip toe within the democratic system that exists and we are lucky enough to enjoy. Putin has been able to operate like a bull in a china shop due to the fact modern democracy is in it’s infancy in Russia. I imagine the average Russian voter is fairly happy with Putin’s style. Similar to the fawning over Salmond seen here.

I will ask one question on this. Do you think a pro UK movement in a Salmond led independent Scotland would be afforded the same rights to air those views as currently the Yes campaign has? He may not order it directly, however I can see rent a mob tactics being condoned on Scotland’s streets to shout down those not subscribibg to his vision. If you think otherwise I will happily disagree.

I hope I am wrong about this. Believe me I would not take great comfort in being proved correct. I am also not beyond eating a huge slice of humble pie. We will have to wait and see.

Yes I do.

athgray – Member
…I will ask one question on this. Do you think a pro UK movement in a Salmond led independent Scotland would be afforded the same rights to air those views as currently the Yes campaign has? He may not order it directly, however I can see rent a mob tactics being condoned on Scotland’s streets to shout down those not subscribibg to his vision. If you think otherwise I will happily disagree…

Still playing the man, not the ball.

Salmond is the democratically elected First Minister of Scotland.

Seeing as you have such a distaste for unelected dictators, may I suggest you direct your energies to getting rid of the House of Lords which is full of the unelected and wields far more power than Salmond could ever dream of.

Do try to understand that a lot of the support the SNP enjoys is because so many people of varying political leanings are supporting it for one issue, independence.

The referendum is about that, not the SNP.

Just glad not to feel dissaffected and akso feel the ties in most ways to a larger group of people. Britain, EU, and Scotland may not be perfect but things are not that bad. I used to be a Scottish nationalist in my younger days but have come full circle. Nationalism is as much about accentuating the differences between people not always in a positive manner. I agree about the House of Lords. I would like to see it abolished, UK government moved to say Manchester and a system of PR brought in similar to Holyrood. Would go a long way to reducing nationalism all round IMO. I may use emotive language and often portray the darker sides present in Scotland, however I have at times been able to point to some of the more positive aspects of both Scotland AND the UK mainly from a social point of view. Rarely see good grace displayed toward the UK by nationalists. We can learn a lot from each other. I don’t think this will happen in an independent Scotland.

Do try to understand that a lot of the support the SNP enjoys is because so many people of varying political leanings are supporting it for one issue, independence

Hmm, I think much SNP support has come from dissatisfaction with UK politics. The SNP has always been pro independence and only did sufficiently well this tine around with three losers on the UK ballot paper.

Not sure why you are referring to a UK ballot paper molgrips.The last UK election was disappointing for me in many ways only one of which was the performance of the SNP as the main pro independence party. The SNP were elected in a Scottish Parliament election. The result was overwhelming. Jackie Baillie described it as labours worst result since 1983, this despite an electoral system designed to prevent the SNP from ever achieving an overall majority,according to former Labour first minister Jack Mcconnell.

What I meant was that the SNP benefited from dissatisfaction with the main UK parties rather than pro-independence sentiment as alleged in the post. It also seems to be the prevailing sentiment on all these threads.

Geez, the whole white paper is a wish list / theoretical political manifesto.

It really does not help your argument when you say this.You can say you despise him etc but to suggest he has a secret plan to gain Putin like powers tin foil hat territory

I will ask one question on this. Do you think a pro UK movement in a Salmond led independent Scotland would be afforded the same rights to air those views as currently the Yes campaign has?

Yes it will
No mobs will be involved. Again this is tin foil hat territory

winston_dog – Member

Northwind – That statement just highlights your ignorance about how a strategic nuclear deterrent works. Suggest you read up a bit.

Oh dear. Who are we deterring today? In what Tom Clancy fantasy is a UK semi-independent nuclear deterrent going to be of any use to us? it’s dubious whether polaris ever achieved a damn thing in the sorry tale of USA vs USSR mutually assured destruction, Trident certainly didn’t, and so this is the pointless replacement for the pointless replacement for the probably pointless original.

This thread does seem to bring out the headbangers. The year 2020 is going to be interesting, when Dark Lord Salmond has us all speaking gaelic and burning Shakespeare, our kids are studying Oor Wullie at school, dissent is crushed under a steel ghillie brogue, and France (or somebody, who the **** knows) fires nukes at us the day Trident leaves Faslane.

It’s all going to be OK “Northwind”.

We will save even more money and just disband the entire armed forces – (Scottish.Armed.Forces.Equivalent). Guns don’t hurt people – people do. So lets just be nice to everyone and we’ll be OK.

How much does the Scottish Government have in the piggy bank?

If we are going to follow the “Scandinavian” model we should be starting saving now and not after the referendum.

i reckon most of the rockets well see in the sky if trident leaves faslane will be bought around Nov 5th

Do you think a pro UK movement in a Salmond led independent Scotland would be afforded the same rights to air those views as currently the Yes campaign has?

Yes. I think you might be confusing Alex Salmond with Voldemort.

konabunny – Member
Yes. I think you might be confusing Alex Salmond with Voldemort.

Priceless 🙂

Anyone see the SNP broadcast on Channel 4 last night.

Seemed to state “facts” that are still being debated?

In particular iScotland will be a member of the EU because they are now as part of the UK. I thought they had to apply after Independence?

Also, they will keep a monetary union with the UK and use the pound. I thought that was still up for debate?

That’s SNP policy perhaps – it doesn’t mean that will automatically happen after independence. It’ll be up to the Scottish government of the time to determine and negotiate.

Geez, the whole white paper is a wish list / theoretical political manifesto.

Yes. But it has been produced by politicians. And should be treated with disdain because of that.

Nobody should base their vote on what a politician promises. Look at at WILL happen, consider the alternative and then decide.

If Westminster scoured clean the House of Lords, and replaced it with a publicly elected system. Or a worthy unicameral system I might even change my vote. Doesn’t seem likely though.

That’s SNP policy perhaps – it doesn’t mean that will automatically happen after independence

That isn’t how it was presented on the TV. These points were dismissed as scare mongering by the No campaign and they were going to happen.

This debate seems to have taken an entertaining leap into fantasy land.

I for one welcome Salmond as our new dark overlord.

Could we perhaps seize Trident for Scotland’s own use and strike out on world domination?

Axis of Evil has a lovely ring to it

Axis of Pure Dead Brilliant. Emphasis on the Dead, and the racially Pure.

richmtb – Member
This debate seems to have taken an entertaining leap into fantasy land.

I for one welcome Salmond as our new dark overlord.

Could we perhaps seize Trident for Scotland’s own use and strike out on world domination?

Axis of Evil has a lovely ring to it

The Alex of Evil sounds better I reckon! 🙂

I for one welcome Salmond as our new dark overlord.

Could we perhaps seize Trident for Scotland’s own use and strike out on world domination?

They’ll carve his face into the cliffs under Edinburgh Castle in the Dr Evil stylee

First mission of Salmond’s Legion of Doom would be to seize the strategic resources Scotland needs.

The Delonghi factory in Italy had better be on high alert

The first act after independence will be to erect an electrified fence and create a no man’s land at the border.

Not to keep out the English who will continue to be welcome here, its purpose will be to prevent the return of all the Orange Order Rangers supporters who will not accept Scottish citizenship and have fled to England expecting a rapturous reception.

Unfortunately for them they will be treated as unwanted illegal immigrants and sent back North, but baulked by the fence which will be guarded by Lord Voldemort’s most catholic Dementors, they will wander back and forth in no-mans land chanting their unholy liturgies.

As opposed to all those Celtic supporters who could be rounded up and shipped back to Ireland? Quite frankly Scotland would be a nice place without either old firm club existing. Would help improve the p*sh quality of Scottish football as well.

The first act after independence will be to erect an electrified fence and create a no man’s land around the Borders. As they keep voting Tory and are not to be trusted.

dragon – Member
As opposed to all those Celtic supporters who could be rounded up and shipped back to Ireland? …

We’d need them to train as Dementors…

Or perhaps we could put them on the other side of the fence too, and chuck a football between the 2 groups.

Fully agree about how much better this place would be without either group. 🙂

Piemonster – we need Tories, just a few.

Very few people believe in religion these days, so you can’t frighten the children with Old Nick any more, but a blue blooded Tory* should terrify any sensitive child.

*except Uncle Boris

I see the pure dead brilliant card has finally been plaid. It’s disappointing. ..if you’re thinking about playing it I must say Gonnae no dae that or else We’ll set aboot ye!

I wish I had not made the Russia link as it took attention from the salient point of former SNP Deputy Leader Jim Sillars in describing his own party as “intellectually dumb” and “totalitarian”. I notice no replies on that yet. I attempted in my previous post to be more conciliatory whilst seeking a positive response from a positive campaign. Again no replies on that. Subsequent responses I feel make you look more foolish in the eyes of the observer than me.

There’s a clue in there somewhere……

Subsequent responses I feel make you look more foolish in the eyes of the observer than me.

Nope. Not really. You’ve set the bar quite high.

Piemonster – we need Tories, just a few.

I refuse to believe this 😀

We don’t need Tories when we have the Labour Party.

I can see I am making no leeway. Will bow out for now I think, before I become overcome by scotroutes limited understanding of the nature of totalitarianism, his lack of sense of irony, and a general inability by nationalists to say anything positive about the UK at all.

athgray – Member
I can see I am making no leeway. Will bow out for now I think, before I become overcome by scotroutes limited understanding of the nature of totalitarianism, his lack of sense of irony, and a general inability by nationalists to say anything positive about the UK at all.

Probably a good idea.

In the meantime try to work out the difference between support for the issue of independence and support for the SNP.

The No campaign hasn’t worked this out yet either, but it would be nice to see them come up with some actual benefits of staying in the Union other than we’ll bash you up if you leave.

So far we have been threatened with all sorts of nasties right up to preventative bombing – who wants to be a partner in that sort of union?

Athgray you seem to be surprised that a party within touching distance of achieving the policy which is its very core policy,is able to maintain a tight party line.
When you first likened Salmond to Putin in this thread you made no mention of personalities so its not surprising I thought you were talking about policies. You have compared Salmond and Putin on other threads too again with no mention of personalities. I believe that Jim Sillars and Alex Salmond worked closely together at the end of the 80s or early 90s but both were ambitious and only one could be the leader of the SNP. Salmon won and despite this bitter personal disappointment Jim Sillars is a supporter of independence to this day. There are many great things about life in the UK for example it is a democracy unlike Russia but these good things about life in the UK areasnot necessarily a product of the union andI think you really meant you wanted to hear nationalists say there were good things about unionism.

Athgray says he regrets comparing Salmond to Putin and then says

scotroutes limited understanding of the nature of totalitarianism, his lack of sense of irony

Pot! Kettle!

The Jim Sillars totalitarian thing is a dead end. We all know the SNP is an intellectually underdeveloped single issue party and that Salmond is the core and the main reason for its success. We know that Sillars is on the outside and is upset. The fact that the party is a one man show doesn’t mean that Salmond will become some kind of Tunnocks-munching autocrat. It’s just nonsense, not least because the SNP would probably fracture once its raison d’être had disappeared.

So long as Sillars isn’t the new Kimmage.

Not that it matters. As your not voting for Salmond.

konabunny – Member
…It’s just nonsense, not least because the SNP would probably fracture once its raison d’être had disappeared.

That’s what I expect to happen.

However many independence supporters feel the major parties they previously have voted for have been tarnished by their contemptuous dirty tricks campaigns and it may take some time for them to regain their usual support. Their current leaderships are seen as anti-Scottish.

(That’s IMO of course.)