Scottish independence – hmm, a thought

Czechoslovakia managed to separate into two nations quite easily recently so the potential infrastructure issues which people keep raising can be resolved.

True, but it was only created in 1918 and then post-1945 they kicked out most of the non-Czechs/Slovaks – plus it split during good ‘times’ with plenty of EU/US cash around.

b r – Member

Czechoslovakia managed to separate into two nations quite easily recently so the potential infrastructure issues which people keep raising can be resolved.

True, but it was only created in 1918 and then post-1945 they kicked out most of the non-Czechs/Slovaks – plus it split during good ‘times’ with plenty of EU/US cash around.

Age of the state largely irrelevant IMHO as far as the infrastructure seperation issues raised so far as they are all relatively recent/modern. Can’t see the relevance of the expulsion or otherwise of ethnic groups in a Soviet satellite state either.Scotland already has a modern democratic capitalist economy and up to date infrastructure(health,transport,education etc) and maybe some oil revenue too so won’t need to rely on financial support.

Turns out King Salmond the 1st supported RBS’s failed bid to buy ABN Amro in 2009. If Scotland does get independence i hope someone else is put in charge of the economy.

Here’s an interesting piece by Faisal Islam, which asks a series of questions about the economic independence of Scotland:

http://blogs.channel4.com/faisal-islam-on-economics/yours-for-scotland-ten-economic-questions-on-independence/15904

What is particularly interesting is the currency question:

Will an independent Scotland stay in the “sterling zone”? So will Scotland be any better off from being tagged to a central bank that takes no notice of its economic conditions? Surely the singular lesson of the past year is that a monetary union requires fiscal coordination/ control. Could Scotland “print money” independently to lower its own long term interest rates? Would the UK Treasury have to send inspectors to Holyrood in 2016, like the ECB/EU has sent teams to Dublin/ Athens/ Lisbon?

The question of national debt is also interesting. Based on population an independent Scotland would take about £80bn in debt. That is about 80% of its economy.

Of course all these questions nobody can answer will depend on the type of independence being voted for. That is the big question.

As I’d already posted, it’s worth bearing in mind that the Czechoslovakian split only came after they had disagreements on a more “federal” solution. I see this as one of the outcomes of any “Devo-Max” option in the UK. Even if a Federal UK could be set up, with all terms agreed, it would only last as long as the next illegal war or nuclear delivery platform upgrade.

Of course, Scotland could survive economically as an independent nation with an economy bigger than New Zealand. There has been much carping about Mr Salmond’s arc of prosperity speech (Iceland, Ireland etc). But it is absurd scaremongering to suggest that Scotland would suddenly go bankrupt. The question is will Scotland be better off? I think it’s fair to say that a successful euro made the purely economic case for Scottish independence much stronger. The euro’s problems and evolution has changed the game though. Scotland would have to seriously consider its role within one of two currency unions: the eurozone, or the sterling zone.

Scotland would have to seriously consider its role within one of two currency unions: the eurozone, or the sterling zone

What makes them think that being in the sterling zone will be an option?

“Recognise the hills in the background – probably not, unless you happen to live in Dunoon…”

I’m too drained after a day’s battle about this on FB and with my Scouse work colleagues, however I can’t ignore the quote above. Great to see Dunoon getting a rare mention on STW, thanks. *eyes go all misty with homesick nostalgia*

Quite a nice piece from James Naughtie on BBC:

It turns out that in the argument over Scotland’s future in the United Kingdom, the politically paradoxical is more interesting than any legal furore that might flare up over the coming referendum.

Consider two facts. Michael Moore, Liberal Democrat and Secretary of State for Scotland, says there should – must – be a straight yes-no question on independence on the referendum ballot paper, though he and his party are historically committed to the increase of powers for the Edinburgh parliament within the UK known as “devo max”.

And Alex Salmond, Nationalist and First Minister, whose party regards that option as a false kind of non-independence, says it must be offered as an alternative because many Scots might want to choose it. Work that one out.

[so its not just me that noticed this confusion!!]

The answer is simpler than it may at first appear. Both sides in the argument have been forced by David Cameron’s intervention to make the first moves in what is going to be an absorbing chess game lasting at least 18 months, and naturally they have chosen to attack – to try to find their opponent’s tender spots.

[have I mentioned, caught napping?]

Leave aside for a moment the prime minister’s decision to force the pace and remind Scotland of Westminster’s legislative supremacy on constitutional matters – whether it turns out to be cackhanded or a skilful change of pace will be determined by the way ministers address the question in the coming months, and the tone they adopt.

Let them go their own way if they want. Yes, yes, we are going to work harder down South without their “oil” but not a big problem really.

Yes, yes, there has been a union for a long time but I guess it’s only a matter of time before someone stir up some shite and if they want the fish to lead them so be it. Good or bad after that they can only blame the fish and not someone south of their border or blame their previous governments … for the past 300 years.

By the way Scottish smoked salmon is over rated and over priced. What’s all this shite about best salmon fish come from Scotland eh? What a load of turds.

The drugs appear to have worn off.

” What a load of turds.”

You’re thinking of Mersey Trouts not salmon dunder-heid.

By the way Scottish smoked salmon is over rated and over priced. What’s all this shite about best salmon fish come from Scotland eh? What a load of turds.

Very good point. I sometimes buy Norwegian smoked salmon, and it’s half the price and just as nice. I find it bewildering that the ‘home grown’ product is so expensive. It’s not like labour/production costs are lower in Norway, they’re higher ffs!

And whiskey isn’t really Scottish, is it? Doesn’t most of the flavour comes from the secondhand barrels they import? 😉

Looking at it from a residency point of view, the scottish government consider people to be scottish after 3 years of residency, it seems, if you go by the student fees arrangements. I presume if they can make that figure stick for that reason, you’d be elligible for citizenship if you’ve lived here for 3 years or more.

(Englishman in Glasgow for 4 years now) Hoping my biking skills aren’t assessed.

CaptJon – Member
And whiskey isn’t really Scottish, is it? Doesn’t most of the flavour comes from the secondhand barrels they import?

Whiskey isn’t Scottish at all 🙂

Whiskey isn’t Scottish at all

😉

Zokes – I ain’t tried that, but there’s a couple of lovely whiskys coming out of Penderyn in Wales.

CaptJon – Member

And whiskey isn’t really Scottish, is it? Doesn’t most of the flavour comes from the secondhand barrels they import?

Propaganda by so called wiskey “experts”?

Looking at it from a residency point of view, the scottish government consider people to be scottish after 3 years of residency, it seems, if you go by the student fees arrangements. I presume if they can make that figure stick for that reason, you’d be elligible for citizenship if you’ve lived here for 3 years or more.

But that is using something that is controlled (date of entry to UK), rather than something uncontrolled. “Yes, I’ve lived here for 4 years”.

Its always the details…

Here’s an interesting selective piece by Faisal Islam, which asks a series of loaded questions about the economic independence of Scotland:just as he was selective about which “facts” he used when trying to put a case for Shetland being still in Norway.

FTFY

Zokes – I ain’t tried that, but there’s a couple of lovely whiskys coming out of Penderyn in Wales.

It’s still a bit rough around the edges being so young (my bottle is only 3 years), but it certainly seems to have promise. Personally I’ve never got on with the Penderyn – nothing wrong with it, but I reckon it it were a Scottish whisky it would just get lost amongst the competition.

Seriously good in its own right, however, is this from Tasmania (a place that seems to be getting into whisky in a big way):

I even saw a bottle of Kiwi whisky in the shop recently….

duckman – he’s a journalist, of course the questions are loaded! It doesn’t stop the question he asks, and issues he raises being interesting and important.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/independent-scotland-could-be-exactly-the-same%2c-warn-experts-201201114752/

🙂

After watching Wee Alex on Newsnight last night, all I can say is I wished I lived in his world.

The one where I get everything my own way. Where my interests come before the rest of the UK. Where the world is full of tweety birds and fwuffy bunnies. Where all my requests are met, without question. Where I have to supply no pesky detail of my loopy unworkable cloud-cuckoo land ideas. Where a large group of people support my mad ideas due to pure tribalism, without needing anything more than a banner to rally behind. Where my previous suicidally daft economic policies are never thrown back in my face

Ah…. if only

duckman – he’s a journalist, of course the questions are loaded! It doesn’t stop the question he asks, and issues he raises being interesting and important.

He actually seems to have an axe to grind. I wonder if he was warning us all off RBS in 2007?

binners – Member
After watching Wee Alex on Newsnight last night, all I can say is I wished I lived in his world.

The one where I get everything my own way. Where my interests come before the rest of the UK. Where the world is full of tweety birds and fwuffy bunnies. Where all my requests are met, without question. Where I have to supply no pesky detail of my loopy unworkable cloud-cuckoo land ideas. Where a large group of people support my mad ideas due to pure tribalism, without needing anything more than a banner to rally behind. Where my previous suicidally daft economic policies are never thrown back in my face

Ah…. if only

Posted 28 minutes ago # Report-Post

You will Binners….As long as you vote Tory in a devolved UK

Binners did we watch different versions of Newsnight?

He made some reasonable points IMHO..you are getting a bit frothy …though you have not quite become a swivel eyed loon

Was watching this on the news last night and one thing did pop out to me. Know how they are going to devolve the power to scotland to hold a binding referendum, is that a one time only thing or a permanent devolution of power?

wrecker – Member
Scotland would have to seriously consider its role within one of two currency unions: the eurozone, or the sterling zone
What makes them think that being in the sterling zone will be an option?

I doubt England would want Scotland to go to the euro regardless. Salmond stated last night that Scotland would continue to use Stirling until the people decided against it.

Junkyard. I just think Alex Salmond is getting a very easy ride from the press. I think he’s effectively shifted the onus onto Call Me Dave and chums to come up with answers, while he sits back and flannels. Very effectively, I might add

Its ironic. As its the same kind of thing Call Me Dave did on the run up to the last general election. Dodged questions, gave vague, fluffy non-commital answers, certainly no commitments or certainties. “We’ll announce that later…. etc etc. Except they never do, obviously

Its exactly what Alex Salmond is doing now. Which is ok at this point, but as a referendum gets closer, you’d hope he’d be pressed for solid commitments

Dave wasn’t though, so I’m not holding my breath

YouGov poll showed that 33% of Scots who were questioned backed independence, while 53% were against, with 14% undecided.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll_shows_rise_in_support_for_scottish_independence_1_2050012

Hahahahah – Good luck with that referendum Alec – you’ve got a LONG way to go to get to 50% 😆

Fortunately, Dave’s lendinga hand by supplying a few extra votes. Unless he wisens up and shuts up, but i can’t see that happening soon.

Well in the interests of fairness, in the 70’s vote, 2/3rds had to vote yes. So how about evening it up this time?

I doubt England would want Scotland to go to the euro regardless. Salmond stated last night that Scotland would continue to use Stirling until the people decided against it.

Valid comments, but are scotland happy to use currency with another nations queen on it?
The UK could and perhaps should point them towards the Euro.

One of the reasons why Westminster is not trusted to set the referendum up – memories of what happened last time. it looked like a yes vote would go thru so the terms were changed to make a yes vote totally implausible

Wrecker – the Queen is the queen of Scotland and England – she would still be the Scottish queen.

The UK could and perhaps should point them towards the Euro.

You can almost guarantee that it will be used as a major point for voting no. There has already been a load of guff in the press about how any new nation in the EU has to adopt the Euro.

Alex Salmond is getting a very easy ride from the press. I think he’s effectively shifted the onus onto Call Me Dave and chums to come up with answers, while he sits back and flannels. Very effectively, I might add

I think it is reasonable to answer some questions on this isuse with the idea they will need to be noegotiated after the vote – not that unreasonable as osme of the answers depend on the Unionists response

Its ironic. As its the same kind of thing Call Me Dave did on the run up to the last general election. Dodged questions, gave vague, fluffy non-commital answers, certainly no commitments or certainties. “We’ll announce that later…. etc etc. Except they never do, obviously

Its unre;aistic to expecta politician to have an answer fo reverything but they cannot just be honest and say Hell I dont know as we would not like an honest answer…it is reasonable to say no one knows exactly what would happen in every are after a referendum vote for independence…imagine what opponents would be sayng if he said I dont know , which is the truth…he has no choice due to the natur eof politics…its not a good thing but it is what happens in politics.

Its exactly what Alex Salmond is doing now. Which is ok at this point, but as a referendum gets closer, you’d hope he’d be pressed for solid commitments

It just not all his /Scotlands decision so he can never answer even if he has a preferred option

Dave wasn’t though, so I’m not holding my breath

Dont hink he will ever be poinned down tbh as he doe snot have the answers

Zulu – you must pray we dont have a full vote on hunting ….its way more popular than that 😉

I doubt anyone thinks it will be won so i am not quite sure why the Unionists are getting so worried or why Dave is playing right inot thier hands by being “bosSy” and telling scortland what to do with their 1 mp and total absence of elctoral manadte …this is the main case the SNP will bang on about if he does this and one can hardly deny they have apoint…Dave has no electoral mandate to do anything in Scotland.

Dave has no electoral mandate to do anything in Scotland.

When did having no electoral mandate ever discourage Call me Dave? Lest we forget – he’s no electoral mandate anywhere. It hasn’t stop him acting like he won with a landslide though, has it?

There has already been a load of guff in the press about how any new nation in the EU has to adopt the Euro.

And who says Scotland isn’t in the EU just now?
of course, if Independant Scotland isn’t in the EU, then why should Indenpendant England be?
Euros for all. Woo-hoo

One of the reasons why Westminster is not trusted to set the referendum up – memories of what happened last time. it looked like a yes vote would go thru so the terms were changed to make a yes vote totally implausible

What would count as a yes for the SNP, 50.01% of electorate?