Scottish Independence… here we go a again :-)

I’d liken it to leaving your home town. The friends with which you maintain something common are the ones you’ll keep in touch with. The ones you don’t, you’ll gradually cease to contact. Of course, you’ll also make new friends along the way.

And an annual Scotland-England match will just be like going home for Hogmanay. 😆

Some of those “close social ties” being celebrated in Edinburgh today.

Members of the far-right Scottish Defence League (SDL) and anti-racism campaigners have been staging rival protests in Edinburgh.

That’ll be the Sunderland Division of the Scottish Defence League and the Blackburn Division of the Scottish Defence League then?

That’ll be the Sunderland Division of the Scottish Defence League and the Blackburn Division of the Scottish Defence League then?

So English fascists support Scottish fascists (there’s a Saltaire on one of those placards). What’s your point, caller?

I am not sure the point to be proved by quoting me before posting a picture of some far right gathering. I don’t think I could be anymore vehemently express my opinions on nationalism???

Athgray what is the point of differentiating between the style and policy of a government at this point .You didn’t distinguish between them earlier.
SDL a shower of racists wherever they come from.

When I mentioned social ties I was thinking along the lines of last years olympics rather than a joint right wing rally. That must be the yes campaigns ‘positivity’ coming through. Who is scaremongering?

I don’t think I could be anymore vehemently express my opinions on nationalism???

said the unionist

You are just choosing which brand of nationalism you like [ unionism is a national identity clearly] not opposing nationalism- the same could be made about any position to be fair

I am in no way saying you are a racist or support that shower to be absolutely clear

Don’t see how the Olympics could really be called a social tie. A fantastic experience for the volunteers and competitors but not much impact beyond that…except that they were an economic boon to the south east of England.

scotroutes – Member
Some of those “close social ties” being celebrated in Edinburgh today.

LOLZ “Never forget Glasgow Airport”. Is that really all they’ve got?

The premiership point was a bit tongue in cheek, but it would appear that athgray doesn’t really do tongue in cheek. I don’t wish to be an independent country through any anti-English or British sentiment, more of a pro Scottish sentiment. Unfortunately, I don’t actually think we will succeed in a yes vote, as many people fear change, and the status quo is what they have been used to all their lives.

The irony is that the union is not the norm worldwide, independant countries are. The politicians have even moved on from the economic arguements, as they all (even Gideon) accept that Scotland is viable, it is only hurdle of fear of the unknown that is wheeled out now.

Ruling by fear, it’s worked for centuries.

I can do tongue in cheek nobeer, however it does not always come across in this format. It seems we have all made up our mind where to put our cross next year, I am sure we can all agree on that.

Yip, I wouldn’t try to change your mind, each to their own.

The irony is that the union is not the norm worldwide

Actually that’s not true. Most countries in Europe are made up of smaller old states. Germany and Spain are both Federal states these days , not sure about others.

EDIT Switzerland too

There is no UKGBNIDL, so the above is a perfect example of discrete English and Scottish organisations coming together to argue for a common cause. That’s a very good model for the sort of social, non-political ties we could still have post-independence.

Contrary to most of the posters in this thread, I reckon DC is a better (cannier?) politician than Salmond, by giving him a Yes/No vote (and nothing else) he’s got rid of the sniping and ended up with a heads I win / tails I win too situation. If Scotland becomes independent, it’ll be Tory governments in rUK for the next 20 years. If it fails, he’s a hero to the UKIP voters and the like.

It’s a pity devo-max isn’t on the table – though for the reasons above Dave would never have offered it. A fully federal UK (with an English, Welsh and NI government) would be IMO the best solution, and get rid of the Lords while we’re at it.

There can be only one way to solve this debate…

mogrim – Member

Contrary to most of the posters in this thread, I reckon DC is a better (cannier?) politician than Salmond, by giving him a Yes/No vote (and nothing else) he’s got rid of the sniping and ended up with a heads I win / tails I win too situation. If Scotland becomes independent, it’ll be Tory governments in rUK for the next 20 years. If it fails, he’s a hero to the UKIP voters and the like. I’m not sure it’s win win for Cameron – going down in history as the Conservative and Unionist party leader who presided over the break-up of the union? But then he’d be crying all the way to a generation of election victories. An interesting paradox.
When the inevitable nae vote arrives, though, it’s prob true he will get a boost from it all. Some ersatz statesmanship courtesy of Alec.

We’re still in the phoney war stage. ..plenty of time for the relentless scaremongering from better together to sicken voters.

I’m not sure it’s win win for Cameron – going down in history as the Conservative and Unionist party leader who presided over the break-up of the union?

not really, its not like he’s lost an embarrassing war. a referendum is going ahead. westminster is sort of on side with it happening. there is a good chance he might be viewed as quite liberal on the matter by not sending in the troops to stomp some heads. which is what quite a few nations around the world would do. that line of thought might take a while to settle in mind you.

double post

As an inhabitant of Wales, I would like to see a federalised UK. Most of us here would have no wish to be governed by tories forever. But then what would we do about the North of England? There aren’t many metrics by which you could separate Wales but not Northern England.

I look at the pro indepence campaign as an old nation trying to reassert its identity more than a group of people trying to break up a nation . Federalism wouldn’t work for me.

So… Wales for independence then? What about Mercia, Northumbria? Nations do change, it isn’t always bad.

I’m not sure it’s win win for Cameron – going down in history as the Conservative and Unionist party leader who presided over the break-up of the union? But then he’d be crying all the way to a generation of election victories.

Or maybe not.

Without Scotland, Labour would still have won in 1997 (with a majority of 139, down from 179), in 2001 (129, down from 167) and in 2005 (43, down from 66)

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2012/01/scotland-labour-majority-win

I think federalism of smaller areas with greater autonomy whilst all under the EU umbrella is the way to keep co-operation and keep localism alive

Think global and yet act local so to speak

he might be viewed as quite liberal on the matter by not sending in the troops to stomp some heads

You seem confused by what the word liberal means

No one is going to invade Scotland and do what they did to NI after a free vote. No one

wrong word ok

but the point still stands. he will look better in history as a man that didnt stand against a referendum happening. even if that mean losing. if he really has his eye on his place in history, will he be thinking of how it looks in 2015 or 2115?

JY. The view expressed in your first sentence I am in agreement with. I may disagree however with how local is defined. It’s a bit like how long is a piece of string. If you break the UK down, you could in theory cut it into very small bite sized chunks. I think membership of the EU is important, however if we vote no next year and then pull out of the EU shorly after, we could vote a majority SNP government again and repeat the process.

Zokes – just for pedantry’s sake, the Welsh, southern Scots and perhaps the Cornish are British. The rest of the inhabitants of the British Isles (generally speaking) are not. The English (Cornwall excepted) have little claim to be British.

Happy to muddy the waters.

How long do you have to be resident as a people to be considered British?
1600 yrs possibly?

Well the English weren’t here 1600 years ago now were they? 550 according to Wikipedia.

We are. Mongrel nation and all the better for it. Nationalism which is about saying how great you are is fine, nationalism that is about saying how rubbish someone else is isn’t.

Nationalism should not be allowed to split up governmental/legislative blocks which exist to further people’s livelihoods. (Both Scotland and England did rather nicely out of the union of parliaments – read your history covering economic growth post 1707)

Disclaimer: Comments made by me about the English should be assumed to be good humoured stirring – as people who know me will know.

The coalition certainly does a good job of furthering some people’s livelihoods 😉

Like SNP politicians? 🙂

The premiership point was a bit tongue in cheek

How fitting. The Edinburgh defence 😀

Zokes – just for pedantry’s sake, the Welsh, southern Scots and perhaps the Cornish are British. The rest of the inhabitants of the British Isles (generally speaking) are not. The English (Cornwall excepted) have little claim to be British.

If you inhabit somewhere for long enough, geographically, you could be described as being from there. So, if you liven on the British isles, you’re British. If you widen the scope, you’re all European, etc…

No amount of nationalistic pride on mine and my wife’s behalf will change the fact that our first child will be Australian. It’ll have dual nationality with Britain, but it will be an Australian.

550yrs? That’s somewhere in the mid C15th, the Angles and Saxons started landing on the eastern shores of Britain in the C5th. That’s coming up to 1600yrs now.

EDIT: Wiki says they arrived around A.D. 550, not 550yrs ago!

Yes like some snp politicians athgray and politicians of other parties . Especially thinking of bankers though and note that they’ve done hee haw for care workers 😉

Nationalism should not be allowed to split up governmental/legislative blocks which exist to further people’s livelihoods.

Well, I would say it depends which people we’re talking about. The legislators did very well out of the Act of Union, I don’t know how the potato-nibbling populace did out of it.

But yes, I agree, economic well being is generally more important than quixotic imagined community idolisation. And it’s up to the voters to decide whether the union makes economic sense, and how important that factor should be.

And of course the voters are the people least likely to understand the economics and most likely to be swayed by romantic idealism.

See gordimhor post reads ‘tory’ ‘Westminster’ ‘London’ ‘evil’. SNP mantra like a broken record. Does not sound positive to me. To look at economics going forward, it seems fair to say that nobody can confirm whether we may be better off, but one year we may be richer, maybe poorer the next. Long term the economics are nearly impossible to predict. I think the reality of social tie erosion is undeniable.
Would an independant Scotland have put stricter controls on banks like RBS? Would they hell. Before the crash Salmond was touting Iceland as the banking sector we should follow. Iceland is now on it’s knees.

Athgray the yes campaign can count on my vote ,if they win I may well not support the SNP at the next election I am in favour of spending more money on improving and preserving local services if the SNP don’t provide that I will vote for someone who does.

Iceland’s economy is recovering at a moderate pace and is now more balanced than before the crisis, although more remains to be done in private-sector deleveraging, reducing non-performing loans and lowering external indebtedness. Economic growth should gain momentum in 2014, led by a large increase in energy-intensive investment. To increase economic growth on a lasting basis and better manage risks, capital controls need to be removed in an orderly fashion, monetary and financial stability arrangements strengthened and the government debt-to-GDP ratio reduced to more prudent levels.
From the OECD website