Scottish Independence… here we go a again :-)

Salmond does indeed highlight the crushing beige-ness of our present politicians

Inevitable consequence of democracy.

Salmond seems to be hated by all my friends up here in the oil capital. In fact the whole independence thing is a big NO from most as well. Mainly since if you are up here and Scotland went independent then you could replace the South East of England with the central belt, we will be taxed to death to pay for central belt madcap schemes.

so there you have it the very rich dont want to pay even in Scotland

Inevitable consequence of democracy.

Why? The SNP have blown that theory out of the water in Scotland. They beat a system specifically designed so that they couldn’t win a majority! Are you saying that a more radical, credible alternative to the 2 party system wouldn’t have the same success in Westminster? Tribal support for either party is a thing of the past. And in that environment, I can’t see Labour or the Tories arousing much enthusiasm in anyone. As the last election (non) result proved

Yep. The SNP are a real “central belt” party.

You couldn’t make that accusation against labour. Nope. No way.

Wont somebody think of the children poor defenceless oil companies trying to an honest living make a fortune out of Scottish Oil

If you get independence then us lot in the North of England are well and truly screwed!

After independence, we could just quietly move the Scottish border one mile south every year, and see if anyone in Westminster noticed.

I thought that you were allowed to build a fence and any land became yours after 7 years?

After independence, we could just quietly move the Scottish border one mile south every year, and see if anyone in Westminster noticed.

Before the union, the border was pretty fluid anyway.

It’s not about the SNP, it’s about the fact that whoever gets in always spend most money in and around the capital city.

Just the Capital, or the central belt in general?

You’ll always get a kind of halo effect from the capital anyway, so you could say both. Same way South East England does from London.

Inevitable consequence of democracy.
Why?

Cos the parties have to move towards the centre to try and poach votes from the margins of each others’ support. Maybe that’s possible because everyone’s dissatisfied…

You think the Tories and Labour are “centre”?

I thought that you were allowed to build a fence and any land became yours after 7 years?

No. ‘Sqautter’s rights’ used to come into force if you had been looking after maintaining land for at least 12 years. Nothing to do with fences. You could then apply to the land registry to have become yours. This is now not the case, you now have find out who the landowner is and ask their permission, if they agree then it becomes yours. Sometimes best to keep quiet and just carry on using the land. No idea what happens if the owner can’t be traced, no doubt someone here will know.
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Anyway, if Scotland becomes independent what happens to the seat at the UN? Does the rest of the UK keep the status of permanent member and Scotland becomes a normal member? If they attempt to reconfigure the security council India and Brazil and probably a few others are going to start demanding permanent seats on the same basis China was given one way back when.

The U.N. is a pretty ineffective organisation it has failed to prevent conflicts and failed to prevent abuse of human rights world wide. However it is the only show in town and does provide a place for talk rather than war. I reckon a lot of the emerging countries would be more likely to achieve a change in the voting system at the UN.rather than a place on the security council which I can’t see changing for some years .America wants the UK on the council and most likely China want to keep India out of it.

Salmon does not want independence, because then he would never have the big, bad wolf of Westminster to blame when things went wrong. he is trying to get more powers for Scotland (Devo-Max). However Westminster has called his bluff. He will lose the vote (probably quite closely) but will then try to demand more powers be transferred. However since the vote does not include Devo-Max (there is no definition of it) I suspect Westminster will tell him to go away.

At this point the SNP are stuffed. They will have lost on their main single issue and as such I am expecting lost of infighting – which will be very amusing!

You’ve not really been following this much, have you? Salmond played a blinder by getting the UK Govt to dismiss any notion of a Devo-max settlement. He knew that this was, by some margin, the most popular option amongst the Scottish electorate and that it would reduce the number prepared to vote for full independence. Despite more devolution having been previously dismissed (where is your “line in the sand” now Ruth Davidson?) the dependency parties are now falling over themselves in promising more power in the event of a No vote, just as they did in 1979.

Again, don’t agree. The agenda hasn’t been status quo vs independence, in fact the approaching referendum’s led to a lot of talk about devolving more powers- essentially it’s become devo max or independence, with the status quo being the one option that came off the table as Westminster tries to bribe us. Meanwhile the vote-splitting devo-max option which would have made a Yes vote incredibly unlikely is gone.

And I reckon the SNP will carry on quite happilly- tbh I don’t really know how you reconcile the 2 parts of your post, “Salmond doesn’t want independence” vs “the SNP are stuffed”. The suggestion they’re a single issue party is basically absurd at this point.

I’d be quite sad to see Scotland leave the union. Totally appreciate that it’s a sensible question to ask. Utterly scared that there may indeed be no escape from the black hole of Tory government 🙁

Brief synopsis of devo max please?

There isn’t / can’t be one. For a start, some folk talk about some sort of “federated” UK. That might mean all taxes/revenues being allocated by country and then a kitty for stuff like defence. We’d also need some sort of English Parliament. Such a change would affect all the countries in the UK and would surely, therefore, require a UK-wide referendum.

I’m not saying that these things are a bad idea or impossible, but it’s not in the gift of the UK Govt to offer them as things stand.

What we are seeing is some sort of ongoing Devo-plus, with new powers (and responsibilities) being added on in a piecemeal fashion.

FWIW, I don’t think Devo-max would be a sustainable position. Trident (replacement) is the most obvious sticking point.

Cheers. So Devo Max would be like the kitty for a stag do, only if Wales forgot to book the stripper then you’d have to waggle your finger in his face instead of booting him out of the pub? Seems like a slightly pointless solution to me.

I find the idea that Salmond is some kind of talented politician who runs rings round other politicians, especially those in Westminster, somewhat absurd. The last 12 months or so have exposed him for the opportunist that sceptics have always believed. His whole political career has been about preparing Scotland for independence. And yet when basic questions are asked about the economic (currency, central bank, monetary policy, lender of last resort) and political (EU membership, currency regimes etc) he has been found completely wanting. This vote is too important for this to be an acceptable position and is a great shame for Scotland, Bluff and bluster has no place here.

FWIW, I find it difficult to imagine Scotland finding a more attractive solution than the status quo. They are being misled on independence, but as my own Scottish education has told me, they are not doubt sensible enough to come to their own correct conclusion!

Then you have a very poor imagination.

Yes, along with the majority of those currently polled Scotroutes!

I think that if we have a yes vote next year the following will happen.
The first few days and weeks will be uncomfortable for English people in Scotland. The immediate triumphalism will die down, and then Salmond will sit at the negotiating table with the Westminster government to carve up the spoils. Having promised his core support that we will have all the good bits, leaving the UK with all the bad bits and some nuclear subs. As this is an untenable negotiating position all will not go as he hopes. He will sabre rattle similar to what we see between Spain and Gibralter by appealing to a core anti Englishness. A far darker SNP shall emerge.
Once everything is sorted, after 10, 20 or 30 years we will be watching mainly Scottish TV and reading papers of mainly Scottish news, not competing as a team in sporting events, and congregating around Scottish based social media. Scottish peoples daily world will be a smakler place. The union might get taught as history in schools, however it will show that for 300 years that poor Scotland lived in a state of serfdon under the control of an English dictatorship.
I know many ‘positive’ nationalist on here do appear to feel downtrodden by an English government. Thankfully your view is still in the minority in Scotland, where the majority feel no such insecurities.

Nothing wrong with your imagination.

Too wee, too poor, too stupid?

Salmon does not want independence, because then he would never have the big, bad wolf of Westminster to blame when things went wrong

Whatever you may think of him it is clear he does want independence

I find the idea that Salmond is some kind of talented politician who runs rings round other politicians, especially those in Westminster, somewhat absurd.

Be hinest the competition is not exactly stellar 😉

And yet when basic questions are asked about the economic (currency, central bank, monetary policy, lender of last resort) and political (EU membership, currency regimes etc) he has been found completely wanting.

He is not completely wanting but it is a tad unrealistic to expect him to have negotiated with the EU, NATO and what remains of the UK prior to the vote in order to give full and complete answers.

None of those will talk anyway as it is not an independent country
I dont rhink it is unreasonable, nor entirely satisfactory, to say we dont know

The pro union insist they wont have the pound – are you sure that is also a true answer?
The relaity is for many of the issues we dont know

Its like expecting a divorced couple to have all the answers to every question at the point of splitting up.

FWIW, I find it difficult to imagine Scotland finding a more attractive solution than the status quo.

A gilt edged cage is still a gilt edged cage
that is you may well have a point but it may not matter. See the Uk reaction to the EU for another example of this principle in action 😉

Dear Leader Salmon can rule his people as he wishes …

He can call himself Salmon king or whatever he likes and be the ruler of the Scots …

Then see the other clans challenge him for his title. 😆

Scotroutes. DD might be able to help, but I don’t see many threads on Irish trail centres, the Irish situation with regards to ROW, days out in the Mountains of Mourne, or Irish politics. I might be wrong but I reckon this is taking place on Irish based forums.
Also is there an independant source for your chart above, or is it scotroutes microsoft paint?

I’m probably being thick here, but I’m not getting your point

The Political Compass? It comes from here… http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Feel free to offer you independent critique.

My point is that if you agree that is the case, we in Scotland will congregate to Scottish social media in years to come. If this site is an example of social unity within the UK, it then makes a mockery of Salmonds claim of the social union remaining. This is only one example. Our social ties will undoubtably be eroded as our children and their children grow up with no sense of the UK.
To think otherwise is letting your imagination run away with itself!

Athgray – there are differences between what happened with Ireland and what would happen Now with Scotland. Scotland shares much more with England now than Ireland did I think, but it also has a land border and communications and economic integration are far greater.

athgray – Member

Scotroutes. DD might be able to help, but I don’t see many threads on Irish trail centres, the Irish situation with regards to ROW, days out in the Mountains of Mourne, or Irish politics. I might be wrong but I reckon this is taking place on Irish based forums.

See, thing is, Eire seceded almost 100 years ago, which was a wee bit before the creation of social media. So it’s hard to see any parallels between a nation that has been separate for generations, and a nation that has strong links today.

What new technology will come along in the next 100 years Northwind after we come out of the union?
Yes we do have strong links. Why try to erode them over the next century?

The entire point of declaring independence is severing the links you don’t like. Any social links that people do like will remain- there is no reason for them not to, people forge the links they choose and break the links they choose.

Instead of looking at Eire, how about north america, look at the nonexistant lines between canadian and american social networks, it’s perfectly clear that national distinction only creates a social divide if you choose to make it so. Unsurprisingly the messy separation and bad blood between Eire and the UK isn’t comparable to an amicable separation.

People alive today that know of the union may choose to keep those ties, but these ties will certainly be diluted in the next generation. I find the ‘amicable split’ analogy spurious at best. Assuming a yes vote next year, you will have one side that I don’t think wants the divorce, and only half the other side that dies. I don’t know in what messed up world that could be described as amicable.
I will go out on a limb here and suggest that if Salmond gets a yes result next year, he will no longer have to tip toe to gain moderate support. He will have a mandate and political power of a level he has never had. I feel we may then have a leadership style closer to that seen in Russia rather than a Western democracy.
I think it was our dear leader that recently drew comparisons with Eire by the way.

I’m not a Salmond fanboy, but comparing the SNP slightly left of centre policies with Putin is talking pish to put it mildly.

What i don’t get is why any English person is bothered one way or the other?
Its down to the Scots to decide, it wont affect us English either way so why the interest?