Scotland Indyref 2

Well I am certain there are non bar perhaps the “disenfranchised left behind” but that is not a major driver

Independence for Scotland is aspirational, inclusive and outward looking.  Brexit is none of these

If you think the parallels are there then explain why?

I think the roots are the same (the democratic deficit). However, two things can share the same ancestor but evolve in very different ways.

And yes, I’m aware that they are not really opposites since when you’re discussing politics opposites don’t really exist. My point was more that my opinion differs from big’n’daft’s in almost every way.

And yes, I even presented my opinion as fact but it was more to mirror big’n’daft’s proclamations.

Really, is that what you tell yourself. Nothing to do with a kickback against the status quo by areas essentially abandoned…. And all the other reasons that have lots to do with poverty and feeling forgotten and nothing to do with being insular and some view of a golden age?

And remind us, how’s that working out for them?

The other decided it wanted to rule the world again and get rid of the foreigners while it was at it.

You do know how much more diverse parts of the UK are compared to Scotland? Let’s ignore London let’s look to the north

Oldham, Rochdale, Bolton, Blackburn voted leave. Blackburn is 30% Asian. Then look at the deprivation indexes for these areas.

Then in a superior tone say

but that is not a major driver

Then look at the levels of public spending per head and overlay with the Brexit leave voter map

Independence for Scotland is aspirational, inclusive and outward looking. Brexit is none of these

You forgot to mention “civic”

And remind us, how’s that working out for them?

I don’t know ask some of the people who are getting the rather thin offerings from Boris’s pork barrel politics

20k civil service jobs moving to Yorkshire from London in the next couple of years

Giga factory in Blythe

How it plays out in the long term is anyone’s guess

A bit like something else……

I see you’re still avoiding answering questions and just throwing out the same statements in the same snidey tone you have been for the last 160 pages.

That’s why people call you a troll. You’re not interested in discussing anything. You just want to state your opinions as if they were facts and wind people up.

Biggest questions for me are simple, if Scotland got independence would it mean merging the different sides, i.e. would there be a conclusive answer to whether it should be called square sausage, or lorne sausage, same with roasted or toasted cheese, all these and more need to be answered!

I see you’re still avoiding answering questions

What, this question?

If you think the parallels are there then explain why?

The obvious parallel as stated on the previous page is that it’s a ‘not this” vote. The future implementation and implications are all to be decided later. If that’s not Brexit in a nutshell I don’t know what is

A yes vote changes the relationship with your biggest trade market but you can’t define how yet, if that’s not Brexit…. Etc

A yes vote puts an international border at Gretna, but you don’t know how it will work etc

You can then add in, you don’t know what currency, whether you will rejoin the EU (half on here say yes, half say no), whether you will join NATO (some say yes, some say no)

If you can’t define it beyond ” not this” it’s Brexit again, on steroids

I was asking Gauss not feeding a troll

A yes vote puts an international border at Gretna, but you don’t know how it will work etc

Hopefully it would turn Gretna gateway into a lorry park, that place has gone proper downhill over the last 20 years, used to be decent with good discounts, back when the cadbury’s shop actually had discounted chocolate, Tag Heuer had a discount shop and you could get some nice stuff cheap :o(

You can then add in, you don’t know what currency, whether you will rejoin the EU (half on here say yes, half say no), whether you will join NATO (some say yes, some say no)

I asked you all these questions on the previous page except the subject was how it relates to the UK.

As you have been doing for the last 160 pages you ignored these questions and repeated the same statements you’ve been making all through this thread.

You are not discussing. You are trolling.

I doubt any prospectus would talk more than applying for EU member status, which will be a few years in the making, NATO is pretty much hand in hand with that, and could be a bigger pre-requisite with the way it’s looking to the east of the EU, but again, part and parcel of the EU application i’d guess.

EU status is rather more than that.  Scotland would be compliant with requirements and would be welcomed back enthusiastically   this has been said by various top EU folk

they cannot give an official answer to the Scottish government only the UK government.  funnily enough last time around the UK government refused to ask officially so we did not get a definitive answer.  Post Brexit the rules may be different

I wonder why the UK government refused to ask?

Nato – personally I do not want to be a member and I think it badly misguided of the SNP to alter policy on this to retain membership

EFTA membership might be a better bet than full EU membership.

It would allow a lot of the close cooperation with the EU but being outside the full customs union could make maintaining trade and free movement with England easier.

I wonder why the UK government refused to ask?

The Spanish told them not to?

What question would they ask? What alignment scenario would they put to the EU? Would you accept the UK government negotiating of behalf of a future iS and without the consent of the yet to be elected iS government?

😴😴😴😴😴😴

New Calmac ferries contract going to Turkey.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/19986756.embarrassment-two-calmac-ferries-built-turkey/

New Calmac ferries contract going to Turkey.

Seems Ferguson didn’t get to the bidding stage, so couldn’t manage the specification.

What would you have preferred to happen?

Ferguson weren’t allowed to bid as they’re severely behind time and cost for two orders already, bit of a doomed future for them I believe since getting out of nationalisation will be a struggle

Argee – I’m aware, just curious what the OP thinks

There’s no money in commercial shipbuilding – it simply comes down to the efficiency of how quickly you can weld metres of metal. There seems to be a romantic nostalgia for something that is dirty, hard work. Don’t confuse building ferries with warships – it’s a bit chalk and cheese.
The Ferguson Marine ferry fiasco is just a classic case of why you don’t want civil servants running businesses – they dither, delay and prevaricate, make decisions by committee and don’t understand that all that extra time waiting just adds cost – it’s the same reason why big government projects almost always go over budget. Unionists saying this is an ‘SNP’ issue better not go looking at MOD’s record.

Part of the issue is that because the scots government is forbidden from borrowing money they cannot invest in the shipyards to any significant amount.

Whether the shipyard would be more viable with more investment I do not know

Its a bit damned if you do damned if you don’t for the Scots government.  Make ferguson the preferred bidder then they will get slated for not using the cheapest / quickest.  Send the order to cheapest / quickest then they will get slated for not keeping the order in Scotland

To me this is just another example of how independence would be better as then the scots government could actually borrow to invest in the shipyards.

I do not know enough about the situation tho to be at all sure tho

Not able to borrow? They have enough cash to give Ferguson marine multimillion pound loans.

“The committee was “extremely concerned” that despite the spiralling costs and delays, the Scottish government provided a multi-million pound loan facility to FMEL – without communicating with CMAL or Transport Scotland . “

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55234240

What would I suggest? For a start I would simplfy the process. There are 4 different organisations involved. The SNP Govt, Transport Scotland. CMAL, and the end user Calmac. Too many cooks etc.

Design? Why make it dual fuel. Green virtue signalling. In the big picture two ferries running between windswept open ports are not causing huge pollution. I have read that the LPG fuekl would be trucked from the south of England and requires modications of the ports the vessels use for storage etc. Dual fuel ships are obviously more complicated and expensive to buils.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51114275

“Since the SNP took power in 2007, the rate at which new vessels are produced has more than halved. The fleet replacement rate has also suffered dramatically. Between 1993 and 2007 a vessel was replaced every 14 months – with the SNP in power, only every 37 months is a vessel replaced. Ferries have a design life of around 25 years. Pre-SNP, the entire fleet would be replaced in 36 years. That is too slow. But it is faster than the current rate – 87 years, under the SNP’s management. “

The CalMac ferry scandal – is it more than SNP incompetence?

Anyway. It isn’t up to me to provide the answers. Just pointing out that the SNP have been in govt in Scotland for 14 years. This is their problem. They can’t point the finger anywhere else.

Think Scotland is hardly an unbiased source

And yes – borrow to invest is beyond the scottish governments abilities

IRC

Now grant that I do not know much about this situation at all but what would you have the scottish government withdraw funds from to put more into ferries?  Because this is the bottomline.  The scots government have a fixed budget.  Spending more in one area means less in others.  the nhs is over 50% of their spend IIRC

Well I wouldn’t have started from here. I would have them spend the money they spend more wisely. In the case of ferries simplfiy procedure. Build simpler designs. No duel fuel. Have the design finished before the build starts.

Major design changes being made more than 5 yearsafter thestart of building.

https://arranferries.scot/downloads/news/we-need-to-talk-about-ducktails-revb-1642163283.pdf

Major design changes being made more than 5 yearsafter thestart of building.

That is stupid.  No doubt at all

I would have them spend the money they spend more wisely.

so what to be cut then?

The Ferguson Marine ferry fiasco is just a classic case of why you don’t want civil servants running businesses – they dither, delay and prevaricate, make decisions by committee and don’t understand that all that extra time waiting just adds cost – it’s the same reason why big government projects almost always go over budget.

Doesn’t really make sense as the government took it on as an option of last resort, they have been keeping it open to fulfil thf orders already there, I’d maybe ask what Clyde blowers did in their time in charge and how they managed the workbook they bid for.

Seems the SNP agree with me now. 14 years late but they are getting there.

Paywalled but a quote from the paper version is

” Ministers are believed to favour a simpler more accountable governance process for the service and ferries built in Scotland to simpler more standard designs.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ministers-face-a-rough-ride-over-catalogue-of-calmac-ferry-blunders-h8zx65bzz

If Scotland do get independence then I hope there’s a review of how the hell rangers get so many penalties 😡

Freedom!!!!

Yep here we go again;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61785553

As someone with with Scottish dad and English mum I’m looking forward to my new Scottish Passport sometime in the next 10-20 years. I don’t see this being a quick process!

Here we go.

I’m looking forward to my Welsh passport in 15 years too.

Yay, Ive got a scottish mum too!

I’m looking forward to my Welsh passport in 15 years too.

Yay, Ive got a scottish mum too!

Dammit I’m English with English parents…<wanders off muttering under breath>

Supporters of the Union have accused the Scottish government of being obsessed with independence

Erm….yeah?

Personally I’m looking forward to Scottish Independence. That way we’ll be able to drive to a decent country that’s not this shithole

As someone with with Scottish dad and English mum I’m looking forward to my new Scottish Passport sometime in the next 10-20 years. I don’t see this being a quick process!

Move here before the vote.

Meh

Within ten years we’ll be holding a vote on rejoining the uk, in much the same way as the rest of the uk will be voting to rejoin Europe

I personally think this country has bigger issues to be worried about than independence

I personally think this country has bigger issues to be worried about than independence

No mate it’ll solve everything, it’s just those damn English Tories holding you back…

I personally think this country has bigger issues to be worried about than independence

Absolutely. And if voters in England hadn’t voted the way that they had over the last decade then independence would be on the back burner, and pressure would be on the UK government to sort out those bigger issues. As it stands, Scotland is just being told to shut up and put up with whatever we back south of the border.