7Mesh Skypilot Jacket review

by 28

7Mesh describe its Skypilot as a “flawless wind and waterproof jacket for every adventure”. After 24 months of testing, Sanny is not so sure and ponders whether the marketing hyperbole may be doing the jacket a disservice.

  • Brand: 7Mesh
  • Product: Skypilot Jacket
  • Price: £400.00
  • From: 7Mesh
  • Tested by: Sanny for 2 years

Pros

  • Great cut for on the bike action
  • Packs down super small
  • Lightweight

Cons

  • Velcro adjusters needed at the cuffs
  • Bring the price down
  • Change the marketing blurb to better reflect what the jacket was designed for

Trying to design the ultimate biking jacket is like trying to win a cuddly toy with the claw grabber at the shows. It looks easy but in practice it is anything but. As I found out when researching for ‘The science of waterproofing‘ article, there are many factors which need to be taken into account – cut, fabric choice, waterproofness, breathability, cost, design features.

What is the ultimate jacket for one rider may simply not hit the mark for another. For example, for me a proper mountain fit hood is a non-negotiable. When the rain is horizontal in a howling gale on the top of an exposed mountain, I want to be securely cocooned inside my jacket of choice. However, there are others who find the notion of a hood on a biking jacket a total anathema – who wants something that catches the wind and flaps about when it isn’t raining? One man’s meat etc etc.

Given a blank sheet of paper, my personal preferences encompass the following:

  • Full mountain hood that fits comfortably over a helmet? Check.
  • Two zipped hand pockets for when things turn nasty and I want to warm up the icy claws that were once my gloved hands? Yup.
  • Lightweight and packable fabric that blends breathability with weatherproof protection when things turn the wrong side of hideous? Definitely.
  • A cut that is designed to work on the bike but which is equally as capable during extended hike a bike sessions? That would be grand.

Fundamentally, I want a jacket that protects me from the worst of the weather, keeping me warm and dry without the feeling of clammy boil in the bagness that comes when pressing on.

Enter stage left, the rather natty looking Skypilot from 7Mesh, purveyors of high end kit designed and tested in Squamish. Think Scotland’s west coast but further and without the bloody midges. Perusing their website, I was drawn in by some pretty bold claims.

“Skypilot is a flawless wind and waterproof bike jacket built for every adventure. From local trails to long trips into the backcountry, Skypilot’s soft and silent GORE-TEX Active 3L fabric breathes and protects like a second skin, keeping your temperature in check even under hard efforts.

“We patterned Skypilot for a relaxed fit that layers well with other items, but at just 250g, it packs down into a small pack or bikepacking bag with ease. At the front, a smooth-running front zip handles closure duties, while to the rear, a dropped hem keeps water at bay, aided by a roomy hood built to extend over a helmet and cinch for a custom fit. Well-placed, dual front hand pockets complete the jacket.”

Blimey. No pressure to get it right then eh?

I will admit that I was more than a little excited when I read this. I have several pieces of 7Mesh kit and they have all proven themselves really capable out on the trails. The fit and cut suit my 6ft 1in slim frame and the quality of construction is second to none. Throw in the 30 day crash replacement scheme and their repair service and things start to look pretty sweet.

Opting for the now sadly discontinued dark blue colour scheme; this year’s options are now peat (brown), ultra-green and black, I was like a kid at Christmas when my jacket arrived. Tearing open the plastic packaging (come on folks, is it not time we got rid of these altogether as all they do is create unnecessary waste?), I pulled the jacket on and was immediately taken by the cut and fit. I have what is kindly referred to as a positive ape index. Not being in any way hirsute, what this means is that I have long arms for my height and as a result, it can be an occasional challenge to find sleeves that are long enough when over the bars. With the Skypilot, the length is absolutely bob on.

Turning to the main body, the mildly dropped tail and the casual cut mean that running a mid-layer can be easily accommodated but without the feeling of wearing a flappy sail when the wind picks up. The Gore Active fabric feels really nice against bare skin – there is none of that horrible and clammy plastic bag feeling that regular wearers of Gore Paclite will be familiar with.

Despite the lightweight nature of the fabric, it has proven remarkably durable. I ride with a backpack which is usually filled to the gunnels with kit and food on big mountain days out. In my experience, the lighter the fabric, the more susceptible it is to wear when wearing a ride pack. However, the shoulders and back of the jacket still look like new despite an awful lot of use which is reassuring.

Turning to the hand pockets, to my absolute delight, 7Mesh has opted not to use mesh but rather made them from the same Gore Active fabric as the rest of the jacket. In my book, this is a small but very important design detail. If it is cold and wet and I feel the need to put my hands in my pockets, while mesh may serve some breathability function, waterproof pockets mean that the moisture on my hands is not going to be absorbed by my mid and base layers. Call that another big tick in the positives box.

Donning my mountain bike helmet, I found that the over the helmet hood was sufficiently capacious to cover most of the helmet. Throw in elasticated hem cord adjusters and volume adjusters for the hood and things were looking pretty peachy, or at least they were until I started using the jacket in anger which is when the reality didn’t quite live up to the hype.

Off the rail and out on the trail

For my first shakedown ride, I decided to head out along a local network of trails and canals, mixing in fast and easy spinning with some swoopy and flowing singletrack. Being Scotland, it was as you might expect a bit wet and windy – perfect testing conditions.

With a following wind and my hood up, things started promisingly. The jacket was staying firmly in place round my lower back while I experienced excellent sideways visibility with my hood up. I was warm without feeling unduly clammy. Sleeve length was spot on – the ends effectively covering my wrists. With the temperature around 5°C, I have to admit to feeling really rather smug. However, turning into the wind, things went south rather quickly and it was an experience that was to be repeated throughout the testing.

Off the cuff

Starting with the sleeves, while there is some notional level of elastication at the cuffs, the simple fact is that there is insufficient adjustment in them to get a good seal between cuff and wrist. Even with full winter gloves on, I found that wind and rain eventually made their way up my sleeves, the problem worsening the faster I went. The lack of a proper adjuster is the issue here.

While I applaud the elegant simplicity of the design, the sad fact is that the gappy cuffs allow water penetration. I grew tired of moisture reaching my inner layers and the capillary action causing the inevitable feeling of dampness rising up my forearms on longer rides. The problem was even more obvious when doing a hike a bike in the rain. Being unable to establish a decent seal on the cuffs, water would drip down unchecked. The same happened when answering a mobile phone call in the rain.

On colder days, my lower arms would get cold as wind made its way up my sleeves. In the end, I broke out some Gorilla Tape and used it to cinch down the cuffs on sopping wet rides when I knew the jacket would be staying on for the duration. This being a bit of an extreme step, I eventually bought a pair of Voile straps which did an even better job of keeping the water out. What slightly baffled me though was that the previous generation of the jacket had adjusters. It feels like a bit of a retrograde step to eliminate them.

Ya-Hoody Menuhin

Sleeves aside, bigger issues became apparent with the hood and in particular, the adjuster design. At the rear of the hood is a simple pull down volume adjuster while at the front there are two elasticated toggles which are accessed by partially unzipping the jacket. The hood itself features no form of stiffening at the peak.

Compared to the mountain jackets which I am used to where it is easy to get a snug and secure fit around a helmet, the Skypilot falls short of what I had hoped for. Starting with the volume adjuster, the simple rear pull toggle looks simple but the thin elastic and ultra-minimalist design means that with gloved hands, whether wet summer full finger gloves or full winter numbers, it can be hard to grasp the elastic and pull it down.

Unlike adjuster designs from pretty much every big name jacket manufacturer, instead of tightening the hood around your helmet to create a secure, windproof fit, it simply pulls it back while simultaneously pulling your hem up. Volume adjusters that pull either side of the hood from the back are pretty much the norm these days – they are popular because they work really well. The single pull design used in the Skypilot jacket falls that bit short.

Jumping to the internal adjusters at the front either side of the hood, these could potentially improve matters but to be blunt, they were worse than useless. Instead of using a press down toggle or similar, 7Mesh relies on ultra-thin elastic and a tiny plastic disc that acts as a friction plate for the elastic. In practical terms, in order to tighten the hood, you need to partially unzip the front of the jacket (which is not ideal when it is properly hoofing it down), adjust then zip up again. If this was a once only deal, it would be manageable but in the real world, I found that the elastic loosened off with tedious regularity, particularly when conditions were challenging. Repeated unzipping and adjusting was required. In practical terms, I found this to be a great way of letting water drip down the front of my inner layers and getting me wet. When it is properly minging, I have to question what rider would be happy to keep having to adjust their jacket in such a manner. I know that I wasn’t.

The lack of stiffening peak on the hood only made matters worse. Riding into any form of headwind, I found that the only way I could stop the hood from wanting to blow back was to use my chin to hold the top of the zipped section in place. This is fine when it isn’t cold but when I wanted to pull the chin up for a bit of extra warmth, it always came at the expense of the hood feeling less secure.

Wearing a peaked helmet was crucial to success – rainy gravel rides in peak-less helmets made me realise just how fundamental the helmet peak was to the jacket working. Without it, I found that I could not set up the jacket hood such that it did not want to either blow off or obscure my vision when turning to look to the side. As the side adjusters did not stay in place to get a snug fit, wind would catch in the hood and cause it to billow. Turning my head, I would invariably be met with a face full of material. There was no question that on the road, the hood would be a liability when it comes to keeping an eye on surrounding traffic.

After much perseverance and coming to the conclusion that there is only so many times one can reasonably be expected to keep having to adjust the hood, I gave up trying and rode with the hood down which just served to highlight the lack of tab to secure it down and stop it acting like a mini air brake. Again, the side adjusters were found wanting as it was not possible to create a decent seal round my neck meaning wind and water penetrated with ease.

On one particularly windy ride around the back of Skiddaw, with the hood blowing off several times as I rode into a headwind with side serving of driving rain, I seriously contemplated breaking out the Gorilla Tape and affixing the hood to the peak of my helmet. In the end though, I gave up on the jacket altogether and swapped it out for an insulating layer and a windproof.

I was, to be blunt completely underwhelmed; so much so that I ended up having an enlightening conversation with Ian Martin, one of the founders of 7Mesh to discuss my findings and to his great credit, he was open to the issues I had experienced and was able to give some interesting context to the design of the jacket, the evolving nature of waterproof material manufacture and an explanation of why I was having issues with the hood design.

Up front, Ian acknowledged that despite the marketing spiel, the jacket was designed primarily to be an ultralight and packable rain jacket. It was not intended to be a mountain jacket in the traditional sense that anyone who walks or climbs in the winter is more familiar with.

The adjuster design has been designed to work best with a peaked helmet and fair play to Ian, he said straight away that it sounded like my adjusters were faulty. They should have been able to keep the hood under tension when riding. Had I been a paying customer, he indicated that 7Mesh would have taken the jacket back for inspection under warranty. With regards to who the jacket was designed for, Ian said it was for the kind of riding that he and his co-workers do. Think wet and windy tree lined valley and Alpine trails in the west coast of Canada. Had they set out to design a mountain jacket of the type I was expecting, it would have been heavier and have an entirely different design.

To be fair, I cannot fault that honesty. Reading many reviews of the jacket, no one seems to have experienced the issues I did. The lack of cuff adjustment never seemed to come up nor did issues with the hood. It was as this point I realized that I was judging the jacket against an entirely different set of parameters to which it was designed. Fundamentally, I guess it is like criticising a gravel bike for not being an XC race bike. Apples and oranges.

Recognising this, I decided to embrace my inner British Sewing Bee alter ego and spent the princely sum of £2.50 on a set of tiny cord locks. After fitting them to the adjuster cords at either side of the hood and to the rear of the hood, I set off up a Lakeland fell on a cold and dry but crucially windy day. This was to be the moment of truth and to my delight, the hood stayed securely in place and I was even able to get a snug fit around my neck when it was down.

I have to admit that I was pretty pleased with the result. Not simply because of my tailoring prowess but also because Ian had been right about the adjusters being faulty. No more tedious readjustment. Once in place, the hood stayed rock solid around my helmet. At last, the jacket was performing as intended.

In terms of fabric choice, Gore Active is one of my favourites. I find that it hits the sweet spot of breathability and waterproofness. I have other jackets that have used it to great effect. This latest version feels noticeably thinner than what has come before although from a durability perspective, the outer face fabric has held up well to repeated washings.

When new, the jacket beaded really effectively but within a couple of rides, the DWR coating appeared to have given up the ghost meaning that the entire jacket would wet out in a matter of minutes. What this meant was that as rides progressed, the moisture build up from sweat could not transmit from my base and mid layers as effectively as it did previously which resulting in me feeling a bit damp. The jacket was definitely not leaking but nor was it working as it did when new. This not being my first rodeo, I of course reproofed it on a number of occasions but the same problem would eventually re-occur.

Speaking with Ian, this is a reflection of where the entire industry now finds itself. Older DWR treatments outperformed more modern ones in terms of longevity as they used forever chemicals. With the move towards DWR treatments that aren’t harmful to the environment, there has been a trade-off made in terms of performance. It’s where all manufacturers find themselves and if I am being honest, I am happy with the trade-off.

A little concerningly, as the test progressed, the fabric behind the main zip started to delaminate. When this happens, it usually signals the start of a terminal decline for a jacket. Fortunately, Gore have a great approach to customer service when it comes to such matters thus if it had been my own jacket, I would have returned it under warranty and no doubt be furnished with a brand new jacket. It hasn’t become any worse though and the performance of the jacket has been unaffected.

Overall

As a mountain jacket, the 7Mesh Skypilot falls somewhat short of the marketing spiel but on reflection that arguably misses the point of this jacket. As I came to realise, it was never meant to be for that. My initial experiences with it were unquestionably disappointing. It did not perform like a mountain jacket. However, once I accepted that and made a small adaptation to the hood adjusters such that they worked as they should have done had they not been faulty, I became much more favourably disposed to it.

The jacket does pack down really small, it is lightweight but durable, the fabric works really well in a biking context, the deep hand pockets are bloody brilliant, the fit is nigh on perfect and it looks great to boot even after 24 months of hard testing. With a working hood, I no longer was concerned about taking it out on the fells and mountains in wet and windy weather. I’d still prefer to have adjustable cuffs for the reasons outlined earlier but my Voile strap solution helped adapt the jacket to be suitable for hike a bike epics in the mountains. I’m glad it went from me being underwhelmed with it to it being a favourite piece of kit. The faulty cord adjusters really coloured my opinion of the jacket but having spent some time riding it with a hood that stays in place, I’m happy to take it out on big mountain rides. It may have been a bit of a bumpy path but it got there in the end.

Review Info

Brand: 7Mesh
Product: Skypilot Jacket
From: 7mesh
Price: £400.00
Tested: by Sanny for 24 months

By day, Sanny plies his trade as a Chartered Accountant and Non-Executive Director. By night, however, give him a map and the merest whisper of a trail "that might go" and he'll be off faster than a rat up a drainpipe on some damn fool mission to discover new places to ride. Rarely without his trusty Nikon D5600, he likes nothing better than being in the big mountains, an inappropriately heavy bike on his back, taking pics and soaking up the scenery. He also likes to ride his bike there too although rumours that he is currently working on his next book, "Walks with my bike", are untrue (mostly). Fat biking, gravel riding, bikepacking, road biking, e biking, big mountain adventures - as long as two wheels are involved, you'll find him with a grin on his face as he dives off the side of a mountain, down a narrow lane or into deep undergrowth in search of hidden trails and new adventures. His favourite food is ham and mushroom pizza and he is on a mission to ride all of the Munros, mostly as it allows him to indulge in eating more pizza. He has no five year plan, is a big fan of the writing of Charlie Connelly and reckons that Kermode and Mayo's Film Review Podcast is quite possibly the finest bit of broadcasting around.

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Home Forums 7Mesh Skypilot Jacket review

Viewing 28 posts - 1 through 28 (of 28 total)
  • 7Mesh Skypilot Jacket review
  • lowey
    Full Member

    I use the Revelation jacket for when I was up in the mountains. Doesn’t pack down much but is by far and away the best jacket I’ve ever used in high lakeland fells with a bike.

    johnnystorm
    Full Member

    Fair play to 7 Mesh for having a conversation but really, shouldn’t a £400 jacket be capable of being all things to all men, er persons. At least those riding a mountain bike of some form.

    Sanny
    Free Member

    @johnnystorm

    Hard not to disagree. It is a lot of money for a jacket that is not what the marketing blurb claims it to be. Despite the flaws, I still like it and use it a lot though. For the price, I was hoping for perfection but did not get it. That does not mean it is not a jacket that meets its design parameters well.

    Going forward, I believe the move to PFC free technology in favour of ePE fabrics is going to present a real difficulty for manufacturers and consumers. The old tech is likely to be a high point for breathability and performance. DWR coatings simply don’t perform as well as they used to. Their durability does not match the old long chain polymers. Wetting out is much more of an issue now. I have old jackets that outperform the latest models which was something that Ian at 7Mesh acknowledged was one of the downsides of the move away from forever chemicals.

    Cheers

    Sanny

    nickc
    Full Member

    I believe the move to PFC free technology in favour of ePE fabrics is going to present a real difficulty for manufacturers and consumers.

    On this thread, there’s a link to an interesting podcast about the technicalities of waterproof jackets, their compromises and the future of PFC free treatments. Essentially the take home messages is that none of the claims of any manufacturer about breathability vs waterproofness really stand up to any close scrutiny, and their advice for keeping a jacket in as best condition post PFC treatments as possible is wash it frequently in mild soap (but clean the washing machine beforehand) reproof often – with a heat treatment.

    Sanny
    Free Member

    @nickc

    Thanks for that link. I am not an expert in the area although have done a decent amount of research into this as an interested amateur for the article I wrote. In my experience, on properly minging days when it is pouring for hours, Shakedry has proven to be the most effective at keeping me dry without feeling boil in the bag. The downside is that it is fragile and does not cope with abrasion. Warm and wet are the toughest conditions to operate in. Paclite for me is really poor at dealing with those. There is no wonder fabric but some are definitely better than others and good design has a key role to play too. My older Gore and eVent jackets outperform more recent versions as they do not require to be washed after every use. How much of this is due to the older long chain PFC DWR coating I do not know but sweat build up when a jacket stops beading and wets out seems to be the biggest challenge for me. Everything I have read and my own experience suggests that modern DWR needs much more frequent reapplication.

    Cheers

    Sanny

     

    si_onthebounce
    Free Member

    Wearing a £400 jacket, do you stop at every bramble or branch slightly hanging over trail and carefully inch around it? Would be way to paranoid of a rip or tear

    BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    Going forward, I believe the move to PFC free technology in favour of ePE fabrics is going to present a real difficulty for manufacturers and consumers. The old tech is likely to be a high point for breathability and performance.

    I don’t know. The ePE membrane tech is Gores’ PFC-free membrane – it’s due to replace the ePTFE membrane in all their fabrics by winter 2025. I’ve been using one of Mountain Equipment’s ePE ore-Tex jackets for about a year now for walking/climbing etc, and subjectively, I’d say the breathability feels the same as the ePFTE one. That’s just standard Gore-Tex though and it may be that the technology used to produce the more breathable fabrics – Pro and Active mostly – doesn’t translate over. But it might. It depends on whether the techniques and construction nuances they use with ePTFE work as well with ePE.

    The latest DWRs aren’t great. Apparently this is at least partly because they are less resistant to contamination with oils, creams, gunk off your skin etc. They are quite poor ime. However apparently there is a much better PFC-free DWR in the final stages of development. I think it’s part-owned, financed by Patagonia, but I may be making that up.

    The ePE thing and the PFC-free DWRs are not the same thing, though to be fair, the same imperative to remove PFCs from treatments and production processes drives them both.

    Fwiw, my take is that because of the uselessness of DWRs, you basically have a choice between being damp from the outside –  but not too hot and sweaty – in milder conditions and warm and damp from the inside, but dry from the outside in cooler, wet stuff. The latter is arguably preferable when things are proper cold, but not snowing. The former when it’s milder and just wet. The cross-over point is subjective and depends a bit on you as an individual.

    I should maybe read the jacket review now…

    ossify
    Full Member

    Can’t help but think that someone in the market for a jacket would find this review, get halfway down and think “what a load of rubbish, I’ll look elsewhere” when in reality most of the negatives come from the wrong usage parameters or the broken adjusters. The article reads very negative and flips around in the middle – as you say, it works well for what it’s designed for. Maybe a disclaimer at the beginning to that effect, so as not to put off potential customers too much?

    Though personally I was put off right at the beginning as soon as I saw the price 😉

    gazzab1955
    Full Member

    Luv 7Mesh gear, but it is expensive and I have only purchased when they have a sale on. Their recent BF sale had their goods at (for me) more acceptable prices.

    I saw a video recently (can’r remember the website) of a guy talking about waterproof jackets and the upshot seemed to me is that you can have waterproof clothing or eco friendly clothing that is waterproof for a short while, you cannot have both. This seems to be born out by the comments above.

    fatbikeandcoffee
    Free Member

    I’ve got three bits of 7Mesh kit so I have to say I agree with the comments on the hood, it is a pain, but it is by far the best jacket I have ever had. With regard to @si_onthebounce I suppose you could do that and ride really slowly and get paranoid but I’ve always taken a view that kit is for using so mine does sometimes (will come back to that) have the odd bramble tear and gash BUT (intentionally big but) they sell a patch kit and have a fabulous (and in my experience) cheap repair service too.

    Their customer care has been nothing short of awesome, even when I bought a 2nd hand pair of trousers on ebay that someone had cut off way to short they sorted me out such a good deal on a replacement it was a no brainer.

    So if you want good kit, you have to pay I guess, but sale stuff and ebay helps but the ability to self repair and send off (as well as it being good kit) was the main seller for me.

    Having said that I wish they would a) Sort the hood out and b) I had the new version with the straps to attach it to the bike 🙂

    James

    johnnystorm
    Full Member

    As an aside I remember the pitchforks being taken up when an STW review was postive about an alpkit waterproof because it said the price was good!

    Sanny
    Free Member

    Why Buying a Lightweight Rain Jacket is More Confusing Than Ever

    This makes for interesting reading when it comes to breathability. The new ePE Gore fabric seems to be less breathable than PTFE based fabrics. The former comes in at <13 while shakedry is <3. 13 is judged to be moderately breathable, uncomfortable during high physical activity while 6 – 12 is very breathable, comfortable during moderate physical activity and 0 – 6 is extremely breathable, comfortable during intense physical activity.

    With ePE, it appears to fall between two parts of the scale. If it was very breathable, comfortable during moderate physical activity, I would have thought Gore would have explicitly said so. So basically somewhere between moderately and very breathable and somewhere between comfortable during moderate physical activity and uncomfortable during high physical activity.

    Reading that, I am glad I got my Shakedry and Active jackets now instead of ePE based ones.

    Any comments or experience, please feel free to contribute.

    Cheers

    Sanny

    BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    So, apart from MVTR/breathability tests being a can of worms all on their own – Gore once showed me a graph showing that the (then) new Active Gore-Tex was ‘more breathable’ in a particular test than a cotton tee-shirt, go fiigure- comparing the ePE fabric with Pro or Active is misleading because currently, ePE is just bog standard Gore-Tex, it hasn’t, as far as I know, been used to make Pro or Active variants of Gore-Tex.

    The comparison they need to make is between standard ePE Gore-Tex and standard ePTFE Gore-Tex. The latter is also less breathable than Pro or Active, because Pro and Active have been engineered to be more breathable. In the case of Active, it’s to do with the way it’s laminated to the face and backer fabrics, I can’t remember what the mechanism used to produce Pro is.

    The real question is whether Pro or Active fabrics made from ePE membrane Gore are less breathable than Pro or Active fabrics made with ePTFE. At the moment, afaik, no-one outside Gore knows. They may turn out to be, but they not. It depends how well the techniques they’ve used to engineer those fabrics translate over to the ePE membrane.

    My experience with ePE is that it feels roughly on a par with ePTFE in the same bog standard, three-layer Gore-Tex form. Not as breathable as Pro or Active, but okay for walking use. It’s not something I’d use on a bike. A lot of the confusion is because ‘Gore-Tex’ isn’t just a single fabric, it’s a bunch of different ones using different technologies to create different properties, but Gore don’t explain this very well, so there’s an assumption that it’s all the same, which it isn’t.

    Does that make sense? That article isn’t comparing apples with apples, ePE may result in a less breathable Gore-Tex Active, but as it doesn’t seem to exist yet in production form and Gore is one the world’s most secretive organisations after the CIA and the Free Masons, no-one actually knows yet.

    ps: I spent around four days with Gore people when they unveiled standard ePE Gore-Tex in the outdoor market and they basically were incredibly coy about breathability. Which may mean they have challenges around the issue. Or may just be Gore being Gore.

    You should go and see them and ask, seriously. They have a UK HQ in Livingston.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Despite the fact that I’ll always want to have a rain proof hard-shell jacket in my cycling wardrobe, I always just make a decision about what to wear depending on the activity rather than the weather. What I wear in heavy rain depends on whether I’m doing a longish easy Z2 type of ride or whether I’m doing a winch and plummet. Manufacturers claims about breathability aren’t even on my list of things I want for a jacket – anyone who does any sort of energetic activity in the sorts of wet/warm weather of most of the UK the whole year round  realises pretty quickly that you’ll need different outer-layers for different tasks.

    Sanny
    Free Member

    @BadlyWiredDog

    Great insight. You are absolutely right about there being no ePE equivalent of Active or Pro. As such, you can only make comparisons with what is available at the moment which is that there are ePTFE options that are measured as being more breathable. For the average punter, it is simply confusing. Until they come out with something more breathable, my stocking up on old tech doesn’t seem quite so daft – to me at least!

    Cheers

    Sanny

    BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    For the average punter, it is simply confusing.


    @Sanny
    Yep, totally. I think a lot of that is the fault of the industry overpromising and underdelivering. Gore is actually really, really good at testing and developing dependably waterproof fabrics, which work pretty well in the laboratory, but they’ve been very bad at communicating the realistic limitations of their technologies and, in particular, explaining the differences between different types of Gore-Tex.

    There’s a substantial difference, for example, between Pro – designed for full-on mountaineering use, decently breathable, very tough for its weight, noisy thanks to the woven backer – and Paclite, which has always been a lightweight ’emergency’ fabric intended for short-term use.

    It doesn’t help that they keep changing the names and the tech, but basically most people who aren’t in the industry or fabric nerds quite reasonably assume that Gore-Tex is all pretty much the same, when it isn’t. To be fair, Gore is a fabric brand, not – apart from Gore Wear – a clothing one, so you can argue that it’s not really their responsibility.

    Anyway, in a way, as long as DWRs are so poor, the real limitation in prolonged rain is wetting out, at which point everything else becomes a bit of a moot point and your choice boils down to being ‘warm wet’ or ‘cold wet’. ShakeDry was ace, but fragile – as I think you said – and Columbia’s OutDry works well, but could do with being more breathable.  Some of the engineered PU membranes like TNF FutureLight are really good, but again, depend on DWR to work.

    But yeah, from a consumer point of view, stuff should just do what it says on the tin, without people needing to understand what goes on under the bonnet.

     

    intheborders
    Free Member

    I’ve just binned yet another hard-shell waterproof, they just seem to fall apart having already failed at their main job of keeping me dry (from sweat & rain).

    I guess though we all want the perfect jacket; waterproof, breathable, minimal size & weight and never tear…

    Sanny
    Free Member

    @BadlyWiredDog

    You hit the nail on the head. When I was speaking with Ian at 7Mesh (really interesting guy who took the time to talk with me about the jacket and the wider challenges of producing a waterproof jacket), he was open about the changing face of waterproof fabric technology and how the new ePE fabrics are still a bit of an unknown for manufacturers and consumers. Gore does indeed have the brand recognition but as we both know, modern DWR treatments do not perform to the same standard as that which we enjoyed previously. We have to wash and reproof our jackets much more frequently which brings its own challenges.

    Also agree about Paclite. It really should be regarded as emergency use only. I have had two Paclite jackets that both delaminated, another which I stopped using as it was the most boil in the bag jacket that I have ever worn.

    Cheers

    Sanny

    nickc
    Full Member

    I only ever use my Paclite now for walking for which its generally fine for the sorts of mixed weather I might encounter, for riding; it’s totally unsuitable, but not that you’d be able to work that out from the marketing.

    Sanny
    Free Member

    @BadlyWiredDog

    Interested to know if you are in the industry as your knowledge is impressive.

    As for Gore, I suspect we are at the stage of saying the new stuff does not appear to work as well as the old stuff at present. In the future, maybe it will, maybe it won’t. Even Ian at 7Mesh mooted the possibility that older tech may be the high point for breathability and waterproof performance and we may not get back to there for some time or even ever.


    @intheborders

    Interested to hear more of your experience of stuff falling apart. To be fair to Gore, they seem really good at dealing with product issues such as delamination.


    @nickc

    Completely agree about riding in Paclite. I simply don’t now.

    Cheers

    Sanny

    oldfart
    Full Member

    @Sanny so whilst I know it’s not waterproof I’ve just ordered a Gore Spirit jacket at a bonkers cheap price ! The main reason is because it uses Gore Infinitum material , my mate has a Rapha jacket made with the same stuff and he’s not only been super impressed with the breathability but surprised just how water resistant it actually is . But he reckons it’s the new environmentally friendly material that needs much more regular reproofing? I thought it was the opposite IE before ” green” manufacturing, any idea ?

    oldfart
    Full Member

    @Sanny so whilst I know it’s not waterproof I’ve just ordered a Gore Spirit jacket at a bonkers cheap price ! The main reason is because it uses Gore Infinitum material , my mate has a Rapha jacket made with the same stuff and he’s not only been super impressed with the breathability but surprised just how water resistant it actually is . But he reckons it’s the new environmentally friendly material that needs much more regular reproofing? I thought it was the opposite IE before ” green” manufacturing, any idea ?

    Sanny
    Free Member

    @oldfart

    In my experience, DWR these days is simply not as durable as previous versions. The Skypilot is ePTFE based so older tech but the DWR still requires much more frequent reapplication. I find the sprays are more effective than the wash in versions. Hope this helps?

    Cheers

    Sanny

    oldfart
    Full Member

    @Sanny thanks for that , interesting you think the spray on works better, I’ve always washed kit in Nikwax so are all the sprays much of a muchness or have you got a favourite?

    Sanny
    Free Member

    @oldfart

    Grangers Performance Repel Plus is pretty darn good in my humble opinion. Not exactly a scientific test on my part but it seems to do a decent job.

    BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    Interested to know if you are in the industry as your knowledge is impressive.

    Journo – it’s an occupational hazard…

    whilst I know it’s not waterproof I’ve just ordered a Gore Spirit jacket at a bonkers cheap price ! The main reason is because it uses Gore Infinitum material , my mate has a Rapha jacket made with the same stuff and he’s not only been super impressed with the breathability but surprised just how water resistant it actually is . But he reckons it’s the new environmentally friendly material that needs much more regular reproofing? I thought it was the opposite IE before ” green” manufacturing, any idea ?

    So… Infinium is what used to be – and is about to be again – Gore Windstopper. It’s basically the Gore-Tex ePTFE membrane, but without a PU smear that the fully waterproof membrane uses to protect it from contamination, which in turn causes a process called reverse osmosis, where water is pulled through from the outside. This happened on early Gore-Tex jackets, hence the PU smear.

    The downside of the PU is that it decreases breathability, which is why Infinium/Windstopper is noticeably more breathable than full-on Gore-Tex. The fabric, at least when new, is funtionally waterproof. Generally though, seams aren’t taped, so it’s not sold as such. If you tape the seams, which Rapha has done I think, it’s more or less waterproof, but potentially may eventually do the reverse osmosis thing. I’m pretty sure the membrane will still be ePFTE, but the DWR treatment will be current FPC-free stuff, which just doesn’t work as well as the evil, planet-killing versions that have been phased out.

    You may not have to reproof, simply washing with a soap-based cleaner and then gently heat treating may be enough to revive the existing DWR. The trouble is that even if you do reproof, the latest stuff doesn’t last well anyway 🙁  Thing ain’t what they used to be, guv, etc

    1
    Sanny
    Free Member

    @BadlyWiredDog

    I bow to your superior knowledge and really appreciate you taking the time to comment. I guess at the end of the day we will all just make do with what is out there when it comes to buying waterproofs. Every product is a compromise – always has been and always will be. We live in a warm and wet country which is the greatest challenge for any waterproof to deal with. There will always be dampness from either inside or outside whatever make and model of jacket we chose to ride in. As long as I don’t feel like I am frozen to the very core or about to faint from overheating, most things can be dealt with….. or we could just only ride one dry days…….that would work!

    Cheers

    Sanny

    BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    I figure when it comes to waterproofs or not, you get the choice of being wet and warmish from the inside on cold days, which is arguably better than being wet and coldish from the outside. When it’s milder you can opt for something less water resistant and get wet but stay at a comfortable temperature. Or something like that. Soft shell stuff is actually sort of the answer a lot of the time, but you need to get your head round the idea that you can be less than totally waterproof, but still comfortable.

    The Gore ‘Comfort Guys’ who really exist, honest, they test Gore stuff in the labs with sensors to see if it’s comfortable, say that ‘comfort is the absence of discomfort’, ie you shouldn’t really notice your clothing. But until clothing does AI to adapt to the conditions, there’s always an element of knowing / judging what’s going to work in particular conditions, and like you say, the UK is challenging because it’s relatively wet, but often not that cold. I try to remember that you can get properly hot and sweaty wearing minimal kit on most days, so expecting to be able to layer a waterproof on top and somehow stay cool and comfortable is a big ask.

    Anyway, glad if any of this is useful, I find it weirdly fascinating in a geeky way, but often not that useful in the real world of riding around trying to stay comfortable. I think waterproof shell clothing probably needs some sort of left field, technical revolution, something that breathes like ShakeDry, doesn’t need DWR – also like ShakeDry – but is both light and relatively tough, so not very like ShakeDry at all. But mostly I think we probably need to reframe our idea of what ‘comfortable’ feels like on a bike and accept that some of the time, it’s not the same as dry, because dry ain’t happening any time soon afaiks 🙁

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