Scotland Indyref 2

That pretty much covered the whole lot. Can we just close the tread now please.

Why would you want the thread closed, it’s about asking questions, not blindly following empty statements, that is why any prospectus from the Scottish Parliament is key, joining the EU isn’t a simple fill in the form process, especially at present when other countries are looking for membership and key EU members are struggling with the funding.

When they do release it, and it is audited and checked by independent sources, then there will be a bit more to either support independence, or the status quo, as for corruption, that happens with power and position, we won’t know until it happens unfortunately, same that happens the world over.

Do I believe that an independent Scotland would have less corruption in government? Yes.

What? The man your team would have made the president of an independent Scotland has been busy taking Russian money for years. Less corrupt? Aye right.

Been a wee while since he was leader of the SNP…While a brutal Babbage I am not sure he has quite plumbed the depths that the neighbours first choice has either. And you could also look at how support for him vanished after the Russian TV and the sexual assault allegations. Neither of those seem to have hindered Boris.

@argee If by independent you mean unbiased or without an association to one side or the other I would say there are none. The indepence issue goes back many times longer than the 15 years the snp have been in power. So on that basis I would look for a wide range of views from all sides.
For me it’s this I want to be governed by a government that has all the powers of a modern nation-state and that is elected by people living in Scotland.
Also I think the Scottish Government l, not the Parliament would produce any “prospectus” on independence. That was the case in 2014

Yeah, government (SNP/Greens) rather than parliament, but they need to provide real proof that independence would be beneficial for the people in Scotland, even more so now than in 2014, as the UK, and the World has changed significantly since then, and not in a good way unfortunately.

but they need to provide real proof that independence would be beneficial for the people in Scotland

Why doesn’t the UK government have to produce proof that maintaining the Union would be beneficial for the people in Scotland?

If anything, Indy with a prospect of far closer ties to the EU (even if Scotland doesn’t end up with full EU membership) is far more of a known outcome compared to whatever magical unicorn journey the UK government plans to take the country on.

Independence itself is in national terms really just us picking up the tool box. It’s what we do with it that will shape the future Scotland.
So no prospectus can be definitive. I would agree though that some kind of document for the very early stages could be produced. In my opinion that should be about our constitution and the institutions of national and local government as well as currency and rejoining the EU etc

Independence itself is in national terms really just us picking up the tool box. It’s what we do with it that will shape the future Scotland.

Good analogy but it also depends on what’s actually in the tool box and what materials you have to work with. These are also factors.

Why doesn’t the UK government have to produce proof that maintaining the Union would be beneficial for the people in Scotland?

I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for anyone to pick up that poisoned chalice. It’ll be interesting to see what replaces ‘The Vow’ and guaranteed EU membership this time round though…

but they need to provide real proof that independence would be beneficial for the people in

Define “beneficial for the people”.

And don’t say it’s simple, and everyone knows – define it.

@molgrips We’ll have the same toolbox as all the other independent countries. We’ll have more raw materials than some and less than others. You can read up about employers and study for your chosen profession but ultimately you learn most about the job when you actually go to work. Isn’t a workers greatest tool their own knowledge and experience?

Why doesn’t the UK government have to produce proof that maintaining the Union would be beneficial for the people in Scotland?

You need to measure it against something, without any prospectus then what do the UK government produce their benefits against?

Define “beneficial for the people”.

And don’t say it’s simple, and everyone knows – define it.

Exactly what it says on the tin, that it is of benefit to the people of Scotland, so the provision of services don’t decrease, or cost increases, same with taxation, or if so what is the long term benefit of such, i.e. initial costs being offset by long term increases in services, support, etc.

These aren’t trick questions, nobody i speak to up North wants to vote for independence without knowing what the benefits are, most are worried of increases to tax to pay for the initial costs and what happens to the companies, departments, services, etc that will be affected by a hard border between Scotland and England, and the potential loss of relationships between them between the two countries.

So in short, with everything costing more, is independence going to take more money out of their pockets or not, and will services be the same level, or will there be reductions for some, or many?

Exactly what it says on the tin, that it is of benefit to the people of Scotland, so the provision of services don’t decrease, or cost increases, same with taxation, or if so what is the long term benefit of such, i.e. initial costs being offset by long term increases in services, support, etc.

Of course there are other measures of “better” other than how much money is in your pocket or even the subjective judgement about quality of services, eg. the feeling of autonomy to make decisions more locally on things like tax and services; the potential to live in a fairer society which is less about money in the pockets of the lucky; the ability to distance yourself from the political chaos currently found in Westminster; the potential to access the EU/EEA and have free movement for yourself or your kids etc.

These aren’t trick questions, nobody i speak to up North wants to vote for independence without knowing what the benefits are, most are worried of increases to tax to pay for the initial costs and what happens to the companies, departments, services, etc that will be affected by a hard border between Scotland and England, and the potential loss of relationships between them between the two countries.

And yet 45% of voters in Scotland voted for it last time – where the white paper implied lots of things but of course, was unable to determine the outcome of future negotiations. I don’t think anyone has suggested there would not be a similar white paper this time.

So in short, with everything costing more, is independence going to take more money out of their pockets or not, and will services be the same level, or will there be reductions for some, or many?

Do couples only get divorced where the parties think its financially a good decision?
Do businesses only divide when the parties are certain that both parts will be better off separate (and do some parts actually thrive more free from the bigger part)?

Thanks poly, saved me.

But you missed:

Not having my taxes used to prop up a corrupt regime (only in power by a minority of the vote).

Why doesn’t the UK government have to produce proof that maintaining the Union would be beneficial for the people in Scotland?

I believe they have a Scot working on something, the man brought up in Aberdeen, the one that Scots treat like Voldemort because they don’t say his name

Not having my taxes used to prop up a corrupt regime

Because of course Scotland would never have corruption, you’re so much better than those scumbag English, right? 😉

Because of course Scotland would never have corruption, you’re so much better than those scumbag English, right? 😉

1 Who says we wouldn’t
2 But it’s a fact that the Westminster Tories are corrupt – are you going to try and deny it?
3 Our (Scotland) electoral system at least means if they are corrupt, a majority has ACTUALLY voted for them – so it’s our fault.

And I’m English born & bred, why are YOU calling ME a scumbag?

MODS – can you note who is calling who a “scumbag”.

The notion that somehow the provision of public services would suddenly get more expensive/ less competent when run by an independent Scottish Government clearly hasn’t paid much attention to the machinations of Westminster – £8Bn of PPE procurement for starters. Lots of anti-IS briefing going on about things like pensions and stuff – funny how they always focus on the negative stuff, much like Brexit they can’t come up with any positive benefits except when appealing to their fan base. Of course there’s the survey commissioned by Gove at taxpayers’ expense where the results have been quietly shelved, like the Russia report.

And I’m English born & bred, why are YOU calling ME a scumbag?

Winking emoji. Just prompting people (not necessarily you) to think about any biases they might not realise they have.

Because of course Scotland would never have corruption, you’re so much better than those scumbag English, right? 😉

He didn’t say either of those things. You know he didn’t say them. You know his point was that Scottish taxpayers are helping prop up the criminal cabal of Tories in Westminster (not all of whom are English). In that knowledge, you chose to suggest that Scotland regards our southern neighbours as ‘those scumbag English’. Nothing but tedious trolling with precious little understanding of the actual drivers behind why many in a small country, long governed by a widely despised political party repeatedly chosen by it’s much larger neighbour, wish for it to forge it’s own, very different, path. The wink emoji doesn’t excuse your deliberate trolling either. Grow up.

Of course there are other measures of “better” other than how much money is in your pocket or even the subjective judgement about quality of services, eg. the feeling of autonomy to make decisions more locally on things like tax and services; the potential to live in a fairer society which is less about money in the pockets of the lucky; the ability to distance yourself from the political chaos currently found in Westminster; the potential to access the EU/EEA and have free movement for yourself or your kids etc.

This is the issue, this response isn’t giving folk any positive feel, getting independence won’t change the fact you’ll have a country of 5.5 million people, with the demographics that go with it, the above response won’t make folk who have large mortgages, kids, etc happy, all they’ll think is i’m paying more tax to someone different, chaos will follow as well, 5.5 million, of that some right wing, some left wing, the unionists going mental, others not happy when they don’t get what they wanted through independence, chaos is just human nature!

Do couples only get divorced where the parties think its financially a good decision?
Do businesses only divide when the parties are certain that both parts will be better off separate (and do some parts actually thrive more free from the bigger part)?

There’s a good percentage that do, businesses aren’t charities, and lots of unhappy couples stay together because of finances and the effect it would have on the family.

On the above, would you go to a job interview without knowing the pay and conditions, or the role and what it entails, would you accept it if successful without still knowing the pay and conditions, with only a ‘we think it’ll be better than you are on currently’ as comfort?

He didn’t say either of those things. You know he didn’t say them… The wink emoji doesn’t excuse your deliberate trolling either.

Not for the first time on this thread either. There’s a persistent pattern from one or two posters of deliberately seeking to misrepresent this as motivated by an ‘anti-English’ attitude which, for the most part, it quite clearly isn’t.

Ok, look. I do understand the sentiments involved here, we have our own independence campaign down here and yes, it gets discussed. And yes, there are valid reasons to consider it as I have already said.

My comment was tongue in cheek, for sure (which is why there was a winking emoji) but it’s not trolling. I am not trying to wind you up, I am pointing out that what you say suggest an anti-English bias. You can deny it, but I am struggling to see how any independence position can’t at least in part be anti-English by definition.

Comments like that are veering close to ‘I’m not racist, but…’ or any amount of Brexit rhetoric along the lines of ‘I’ve got nothing against Europeans, but…’

If you really aren’t anti-English* then this is something you have to square.

* or anti-Welsh but lets face it no-one else about them to they?

Do couples only get divorced where the parties think its financially a good decision?

See this piece of rhetoric as well. Why do couples get divorced? Often because they have come to hate each other, so yeah one side will definitely be anti- the other.

molgrips
Full Member
but I am struggling to see how any independence position can’t at least in part be anti-English by definition.

If you want to see it you’ll find it, it is there. But it doesn’t define it, nor make up a significant part of it.

That IS a new variation on the too small/too poor argument Molgrips. Well played!

If you want to see it you’ll find it, it is there.

But just because you deny it doesn’t mean it’s not.

And I’m sure you’re speaking for yourself not your whole country, right?

So it’s impossible to be pro-independence without being anti-English?

This feels kind of like saying anyone who opposes the actions of the Israeli government is antisemitic.

Seriously, it’s like there are literally no actual arguments to be made in favour of the Union anymore so opponents of independence’s only option is to imply that by supporting independence it inherently makes you a type of bigot and therefore a bad person.

So it’s impossible to be pro-independence without being anti-English?

From some angles, but perhaps not all.

This feels kind of like saying anyone who opposes the actions of the Israeli government is antisemitic.

Well no. If (hypothetically) the current Tory government were voted out and the UK was run by social democrats for 30 years, would you still vote for independence in 2052?

Well no. If (hypothetically) the current Tory government were voted out and the UK was run by social democrats for 30 years, would you still vote for independence in 2052?

I’ve already laid out what it would take for me to vote against independence and it’s rooted in my belief that smaller countries are just fundamentally more democratic.

In addition, FPTP and the House of Lords aren’t going anywhere anytime soon.

Once you’ve addressed those points then we can start talking about the total shit show that is the Tory party.

Comments like that are veering close to ‘I’m not racist, but…’ or any amount of Brexit rhetoric along the lines of ‘I’ve got nothing against Europeans, but…’

If you really aren’t anti-English* then this is something you have to square.

This is what I was referring to with my antisemitic comment.

There are no arguments to be made for the Union on its own merits so you have to resort to implying support for independence inherently makes us bad people.

The battle for independence will be won or lost in the middle ground, same as last time, those who are at either extremes aren’t going to change their minds if you tell them the positives or negatives, it’s the middle who aren’t interested in the bickering who will push the vote over or under 50%, and what will sway them is the best information they have on the day.

it’s rooted in my belief that smaller countries are just fundamentally more democratic

I agree with this. Also they can be more equal (tax-havens being the exception).

There are no arguments to be made for the Union on its own merits

No? A group of countries co-operating economically to make a larger economy? This did historically have a significant benefit for Scotland after the union, and I’m yet to be convinced that Scotland can actually become wealthier post-independence despite being a smaller economy.

molgrips
Full Member
If you want to see it you’ll find it, it is there.

But just because you deny it doesn’t mean it’s not.

And I’m sure you’re speaking for yourself not your whole country, right?

F are you on about, I literally admit it’s there in the post you quoted. 😆

And no I’m not speaking for myself, I have zero hatred for the English.

Yer like a dog with a bone man, when will you stop pushing this nonsense, are you expecting to get a result that says yes the entire nation of scotland hates the English? It’s just not true fella, it’s a pretty small minority of wallopers. It’s not a driving factor in independence.

gie yersel a brek.

Independence is about being out of the union that isn’t working for the majority (only borne out if the voting says so) not being independent of England (even though that happens to be the case).

BruceWee
Full Member
So it’s impossible to be pro-independence without being anti-English?

We might as well go with this line of thought and declare anyone that’s anti-independence as anti-Scottish, therefore Molly is anti-Scottish. That’s the kinda logic we are dealing with here. It’s ridiculous, comes for this school of logic.

Since witches are burned at the stake, they must be made of wood, since it burns as well. Wood floats on water, as do ducks. Therefore, if the woman weighs the same as a duck, she must be able to float on water, which means she is made of wood, and consequently must be a witch.

😆

I’m yet to be convinced that Scotland can actually become wealthier post-independence despite being a smaller economy.

As an English based British person, this is my concern for an independent Scotland – and for the rest of us you’d leave behind.

I totally understand all the flaws with FPTP, Westminster, Tories etc etc. I’d like to see all those addressed as well. My big worry is that independence would create two smaller, poorer, less viable countries, and I wouldn’t want that for either nation.

Brexit has shown how hard it is to go it alone in the world.

F are you on about, I literally admit it’s there in the post you quoted.

Ok well your comment could be read a number of ways, I apparently read it the wrong way.

are you expecting to get a result that says yes the entire nation of scotland hates the English?

No. I’m just prompting people to think if they really really really aren’t anti-English on some level.

Independence is about being out of the union that isn’t working for the majority not being independent of England

That’s a better statement than many I’ve seen.

molgrips
Full Member
No. I’m just prompting people to think if they really really really aren’t anti-English on some level.

It’s turning in to a tedious crusade. You’ve made your point(a billion times), mibbe move on?

Keeps coming up though, that’s all.

Cause you keep bringing it up.