Scotland Indyref 2

I would hope that those who don’t feel that Scotland (or Wales or NI) and the people of Scotland (or Wales or NI) do not get the recognition they deserve have the same empathy for other minority groups and how they get treated and who they get lumped in with.
I flagged a clear case of homophobia the other day but no one had a word to say about that.
Works both ways, you know.

@ThePilot I do try to jump in wherever I can!

More from the great man

And there are many people who think that view is widespread amongst the whole UK – that we need a new centre party. Lots of non-Scots say they would vote SNP if they could.

Do you still recognise the SNP Iain Banks describes above @BruceWee. I’m a member and activist. I feel that they’re currently drifting a bit to the right. However I am here for independence so I can leave as soon as it’s won which gives strength to TJA argument that the party will fracture after indy is won.

Appreciate it, @molgrips
Shouldn’t be down to one person anyway.
It’s just if you’re (the general you) is going to be sensitive about one thing, it’s only right that you at least try to be sensitive about another thing. That my opinion anyway for what it’s worth! 🙂

And I recognise the vision he creates (either consciously or not) as being profoundly British. I’m sure you lot will have realised I am talking about Iain Banks, who was Scottish.

Eh?  A very scottish author writing about things that happened in Scotland to Scots people.  I see nothing profoundly british about him at all.  But then I see no “british” identity anymore bar geographical

would you like to expolain what is “profoundly british” about him given that to me he is very Scottish

I am here for independence so I can leave as soon as it’s won

Guess why we’ve not had another Indyref?

A very scottish author writing about things that happened in Scotland to Scots people

I’m talking about the Culture novels, I don’t think Scotland is that technologically advanced yet 🙂

I am not sure I should be de-railing this thread with a literary discussion though, unless anyone else is interested?

But then I see no “british” identity anymore bar geographical

That’s fascinating, because it’s very obvious to me. Out of interest have you ever lived outside the UK? Inside we can often not see the wood for the trees.

Ah – thats him writing as Iain M Banks hence the confusion

I see the culture novels as not British either.  If anything the politics are closer to the european social democratic consensus than anything that has come out of Westminster and I fail to see how you reach that conclusion he is “very british” – its not US style SF for sure but its not UK style society either.  Far more European mainstream that british to me

Out of interest have you ever lived outside the UK? Inside we can often not see the wood for the trees.

Yes – around 6 years of my life.  europe, antipodes, south america

So what is this “British Identity?” you see.

I flagged a clear case of homophobia the other day but no one had a word to say about that.
Works both ways, you know.

I had a look back through the thread but I couldn’t see where you flagged the homophobia. I didn’t notice anything I thought was homophobic at the time. If I had I would have definitely said something/reported it.

You know what I’m not sure I want to get into another bunfight.

I remember that post.  Effectively ( I cannot remember the words) using homosexuality as an insult

Molgrips – have you ever lived in Scotland?  I do really feel you do not understand the different social compact here

Do you still recognise the SNP Iain Banks describes above

At it’s core, yes. Certainly when compared to the mainstream UK parties.

I wouldn’t really class myself as an SNP supporter though. They are more of a vehicle for independence. I’m sure they’ll explode into 8 different parties the day after a successful vote.

I remember that post. Effectively ( I cannot remember the words) using homosexuality as an insult

The last homophobia I remember on this thread was someone ‘joking’ that NS was a closeted homosexual but that was a good while ago. I can’t remember if I reported or not but I definitely called it out. It was another one of those ‘plausible deniability’ type comments by one of the usual wind up merchants.

Anyway. Five years this thread has been going and the SNP show no signs of progressing the issue any time soon so I don’t know why folk are suddenly getting all worked up about it.

I blame the arsehole who resurrected the thread after a two month hiatus.

I don’t know why folk are suddenly getting all worked up about it.

Personally, I’m here because if I wasn’t I’d be obsessively refreshing the Ukraine thread waiting for someone to post something that’ll make everything OK again.

This is marginally better than that.

BruceWee Full Member
I wouldn’t really class myself as an SNP supporter though. They are more of a vehicle for independence. I’m sure they’ll explode into 8 different parties the day after a successful vote.

Power can be a heck of a glue, until the recent purges it managed to hold the very different wings of the Conservative party together for example. While the dissolution of the SNP (in its current form) is one potential outcome of independence I’m not sure I’d bet on it against the alternative (them staying together “for the sake of the majority”, with party politics somewhat being overshadowed by the factional politics within the ruling part).

@Scotroutes asked myself that question and came up with an answer SNP for all it’s faults remains the best political party to campaign for independence. It needs to change so staying in it to try to make the change happen. It’s a sair fecht but I’m no quitting

Molgrips – have you ever lived in Scotland? I do really feel you do not understand the different social compact here

Since I pretty much agree with most of what molgrips says on this thread, I’ll give my 2p worth:
I was born and lived in Cardiff for my first 18 years, then 5 years in Birmingham and 5 years in London, have been followed by over 30 years in Edinburgh. People in all these places are generally much the same. I’d say that there’s more in common between the average person in Glasgow and Cardiff, than Glasgow and Edinburgh. We all have much more in common than separates us. There is little difference in the ‘social compact’ in my experience.

I’d say that there’s more in common between the average person in Glasgow and Cardiff, than Glasgow and Edinburgh.

My experience of living in different parts of the UK (but not Scotland) is similar. In cities and large towns there is not a huge difference except in terms of socio-economic class. In the more remote parts of Scotland I think things are probably different, but that is probably because of the remoteness. That said, it is still real. Life in parts of rural Wales has a somewhat different flavour but it’s not any more dramatic than in rural England.

Not my experience at all.  I see a very clear difference politically and socially – from the fact that Scotland has not voted for the tories as the largest party for 60 years to the stopping of deportations in Glasgow, to the voting in of an avowed tax raising government etc etc

I do not know enough about Wales to comment on that – my above comments refer to Enghland

I am not sure I should be de-railing this thread with a literary discussion though, unless anyone else is interested?

I think for the point you’re trying to make, Iain Banks is a poor example. I think he’s a product of Scotland, he was a supporter of Scottish independence (sharing the concerns about nationalism I think the majority of independence supporters have), and even though he wrote a few books based in England, they almost always had Scottish protagonists.

Claiming him for the UK as a whole feels kind of like when Scottish athletes start winning they graduate from being Scottish to being British 🙂

I think a better example of a British product would be 2000AD. The tone and style of the writers was definitely a product of Britain as a whole and the British Invasion that basically saved the American comic industry included writers from every nation in the UK.

However, I think these writers were a product of a time before the really serious cracks formed in the Union. Thatcherism was the real beginning of the independence movement as a force.

I’m not saying that we don’t still have a lot in common in terms of culture, sense of humour, etc. I would say that Thatcherism, followed by Blair’s war, followed by Brexit, followed by Johnson is just a steady increase in the differences between how our countries vote.

They are amplified by FPTP but I honestly see no feasible route to fixing this for the UK as a whole while there is a very obvious and attainable route for Scotland to fix this on it’s own.

Power can be a heck of a glue, until the recent purges it managed to hold the very different wings of the Conservative party together for example. While the dissolution of the SNP (in its current form) is one potential outcome of independence I’m not sure I’d bet on it against the alternative (them staying together “for the sake of the majority”, with party politics somewhat being overshadowed by the factional politics within the ruling part).

But, if there is a vote in favour of Indy, once the other parties have accepted that they’ll actually be able to start thinking what they stand for, how to differentiate from the old Westminster parties and reinvent themselves etc. I doubt there would actually be one dominant party to start with but rather smaller parties working together cooperatively which is actually what most people I speak to (in Scotland) think is good for politics. Its a more European style of politics driven by consensus and less by party whips. I’m not sure if the SNP would implode, or break into factions but certainly, it would need to come up with differentiators to succeed. Currently, it does well not just because of Indy, but because it is not a Westminster party and the shit show there. In a post Indy world they all have that claim.

But I can see a lot of Britishness in those books, as compared to the rest of the world. If you want to compare with English authors then you may well find differences but if you compare with the rest of the world you might well find more similarities.

An analogy for you – if you compare a Pink Lady apple with a Granny Smith you will find plenty of differences. But if you compare them both with a banana suddenly they look pretty similar.

Not my experience at all. I see a very clear difference politically and socially – from the fact that Scotland has not voted for the tories as the largest party for 60 years to the stopping of deportations in Glasgow, to the voting in of an avowed tax raising government etc etc

But once again you are averaging out English people.

None of the arguments for independence wash, except for the pragmatic desire to get a political system you like. Which, sadly, is valid.

They are amplified by FPTP but I honestly see no feasible route to fixing this for the UK as a whole while there is a very obvious and attainable route for Scotland to fix this on it’s own.

Bruce – I think you are wrong on this. I think its completely fixable. The issue is it needs the rUK (voting populations) to WANT to fix it. I don’t detect the desire from politicians or population to reform in order to prevent the breakup of the Union. I really don’t understand why not.

<But I can see a lot of Britishness in those books,

Fair enough, although having done some writing, one thing I can say is that people project a lot of their own ideas into books. It’s entirely possible for two people to read the same work in completely different ways.

You might find a lot of Britishness in Iain Banks books but I don’t think they can be objectively described as quintessentially British.

Unlike 2000AD 🙂

But I can see a lot of Britishness in those books, as compared to the rest of the world.

In what way?  Please explain because I do not see it at all.

Edit – I see it much closer to the russian and east european SF of the 70s and 80s.  there was tbhe “new wave” of SF in britain in the 60s which moved awy from the rocketships and cowboys and indians in space to a more thoughtful examination of society but I do not even see Banks books in that light

None of the arguments for independence wash,

Which arguements do not wash?  I am sure you mean in your opinion because  in my opinion many of them do

How are those carrots TJ?

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Do you think now is the time for a referendum Colin?

I blame the arsehole who resurrected the thread after a two month hiatus.

😀

I can’t even partially quote that scene now for fear of being labelled by the bickerati.

I didn’t know that a second Independent Referendum had actually been agreed, how do you delay something that isn’t even planned yet?

Promised by the end of ’23.   Blackford is a fud

If Sturgeon disnae get one organised scotroutes will be round to have a stern word  😉

I was discussing independence with someone on Twitter who was adamant that Russia invading the Ukraine changed everything and no way could Scotland get independence, ever.

They flounced off when I reminded them that Ireland obtained its independence shortly after WW1 while India/Pakistan did the same after WW2.

I reminded them that Ireland obtained its independence shortly after WW1

So did Finland and I think Poland.

I reminded them that Ireland obtained its independence shortly after WW1

Nope Irish free state 1922
Republic declared 1949.

Since most folk now accept 1921 as the start of the Republic (including celebrating it last year), I’m happy with me statement, but to be totally correct I guess we’ve to actual ‘split’ the difference go with 1931.

Not sure what this has to do with Scottish independence though, Ireland is ever so slightly different, same with India and Pakistan, and we’re in an extremely different time now.

Would be useful if the SNP actually gave the plan on how they were going to get and manage a second referendum, as well as the prospectus for what the actual benefits would be for Scotland and its population.

It would also be prudent for them to pick the right time, i get the feeling from speaking to friends and family up the road and recent visits that the SNP and Scottish Parliament in whole isn’t as lauded as it once was, lots of negativity over recent decisions and policies, the last referendum was meant to be pretty much 55/45 for independence beforehand, and ended in disaster for them, they need to factor in a lot before using up their last chance!

Do you think now is the time for a referendum Colin?

Do I believe that a Scotland would have better off being in the EU? Yes.

Do I believe that Scotland would be better off rejoining the EU asap? Yes.

Do I believe that an independent Scotland would have handled the Covid pandemic better? Yes.

Do I believe that an independent Scotland would be better placed to implement policies to improve our exit from this pandemic? Yes.

Do I believe that an independent Scotland would have less corruption in government? Yes.

Do I believe that an independent Scotland would be accepting more than 50 refugees from a war-torn country? Yes.

At what point do we have to accept the fact that democracy does not go to sleep during crises and that control over our own resources and destiny would be better than being tied to a corrupt and self-serving UK government?

Do I believe that Nicola Sturgeon has any intention of risking a loss of control as a result of a Yes vote? No.