Scotland Indyref 2

, i hear a lot of disgruntled stuff about the SNP focus at present, and the members in their cabinet, there’s a lot of work to do before any indyref is put forward!

Best way to get rid of them – vote Indy!

Best way to get rid of them – vote Indy!

Almost funny, follow the current administration into independence so you can dump them….

argee
Full Member

people are starting to sneer at them the same as they sneer at the tories, i hear a lot of disgruntled stuff about the SNP focus at present

Well yes, unionists have always done that- SNP baaaad, nothing they do can ever be admitted to be any good and any mention of independence always gets “focus on the day job”. It’s just how they play the game.

Other than Americans who does? I may have to apologise to those in NI for referring to the UK as Britain occasionally but other than for rugby and football England in place of UK isn’t used to anywhere I socialise or read

I walked into a Leeds sandwich shop at lunchtime to be met with the bloke behind the counter saying “England’s going to war in Ukraine”. So it does happen.

He didn’t take kindly to my suggestion that even if that was the case, no doubt Scotland may be dragged into it against our will.

Big and daft – the SNP are still more popular in Scotland than any other party is in any part of the UK with nigh on 50% of the vote.  3rd largest party in Westminster despite only standing in 9% of UK seats

3rd largest party in Westminster despite only standing in 9% of UK seats

The lib dems got 3 times as many votes and a third of the number of seats, and the greens almost as many votes for their 1 seat. The numbers in NI are even worse. It just shows how messed up fptp is. You can’t use statistics from it to prove much.

You can easily state because it is correct that the SNP are more popular in Scotland than any other UK party is in the UK or any english or welsh only party is.  No other party has voting rates as high or satisfaction ratings as high nor does any other party get 50% of the vote – and thats in a 5 party system not a 3 party system

Other than Americans who does? I may have to apologise to those in NI for referring to the UK as Britain occasionally but other than for rugby and football England in place of UK isn’t used to anywhere I socialise or read

So you’re calling us liars (with plausible deniability)?

Do we now start talking about Scotshitters? After all we talk about brexishit with free abandon……

So you’re calling us shit (with plausible deniability)?

You are a perfect example of what I was talking about in the forum behavior thread. You make snidey comments that are designed to piss people of but if anyone calls you out you just say, ‘You’re exaggerating.’

If it was a one off then pointing out that we’re exaggerating would be fine. However, you do it on every single one of your posts. When you’ve got someone who does it on every post it’s no longer exaggerating, it’s just pointing out what you really mean.

The worst thing is that you often make valid points shrouded in a sneering condescending tone. Of course, as soon as someone responds to your point, instead of answering and actually debating the issue, you do a non-sequitur into another sneering condescending statement which may have a valid point in it but is designed to insult and dismiss instead of debate.

I engaged with you yesterday and basically gave you exactly what you want which I’m feeling a bit stupid about.

You are exactly what is wrong with this forum. You take pleasure in walking right up to the line and throwing stones. You’re aim is not to discuss but to get people angry and shouty for your own amusement.

Edit to add: I know I’m playing the man here but if you look at their contributions over the last 155 pages you’ll see that the game they are playing doesn’t even have a ball.

I agree.  At risk of playing the man its obvious from B&Ds language and posting style that his intent is to irritate and annoy and upset folk.

1) I assume now a mod has entered the thread to tell us how to refer to the majority voters for brexit as leavers or remainers instead of English (the people who gave us Boris and Brexit) this thread will be moderated equally. Or will it still be OK to pigeonhole anybody wanting away from the right wing majority voting neighbours as anti-English?

2) Still waiting for examples of any pro indy supporters with inflammatory rhetoric.

I feel like I should apologise to the mods for post anything at all on this thread.

2) Still waiting for examples of any pro indy supporters with inflammatory rhetoric.

If I was a remainer based in England or Wales I can definitely see how some of the comments I made yesterday could come across as being inflammatory. Constantly using you (even with my tongue in cheek disclaimer) would have wound me up if I was in their shoes.

However, as I said, I was getting wound up by the implication (intentional or not) that Scotland was the equivalent of just another region in Greater England rather than a country in its own right.

The problem is, it’s really difficult to argue for independence without bringing up the fact that the majority of voters in England and Wales voted for Brexit and Johnson. Likewise, it’s really difficult to argue against independence without implying (or just flat out stating) that Scotland is the equivalent of a region in England.

Careful use of language and maybe slightly thicker skins needed all round, I would say.

You are exactly what is wrong with this forum. You take pleasure in walking right up to the line and throwing stones. You’re aim is not to discuss but to get people angry and shouty for your own amusement.

So have you followed the new guidance from the mods and reported it, rather being dragged down to the same level?

Northwind
Full Member
argee
Full Member

people are starting to sneer at them the same as they sneer at the tories, i hear a lot of disgruntled stuff about the SNP focus at present

Well yes, unionists have always done that- SNP baaaad, nothing they do can ever be admitted to be any good and any mention of independence always gets “focus on the day job”. It’s just how they play the game.

These aren’t unionists, they’re folk who aren’t too happy with the politics being played, and the changes being brought in by the SNP. I also hear a fair amount of negativity towards some of the members of the party, but that again is due to how long they’ve been in, and like the tories, they’re pretty much unchallenged in Scotland, there’s not many places you can predict the outcome with confidence, so they do take that for granted a bit.

As for Independence getting rid of them, who here honestly believes career politicians are going to move on to pastures new, or risk losing their seat with any shift away from the area of power?

So have you followed the new guidance from the mods and reported it, rather being dragged down to the same level?

Yes.

As for Independence getting rid of them, who here honestly believes career politicians are going to move on to pastures new, or risk losing their seat with any shift away from the area of power?

They may not have a choice. They still have to be elected and if the electorate don’t like them they’re out.

Assuming you’re not trying to say the SNP is going to engineer it so that Scotland becomes a single party state post-independence?

As for Independence getting rid of them, who here honestly believes career politicians are going to move on to pastures new, or risk losing their seat with any shift away from the area of power?

Its not the politicians that will cease to exist but the party.  The SNP is a much broader church than most parties from the urban socialists to the rural hunting shooting fishing lot.  After independence the glue that holds the SNP together goes and it will fracture and cease to exist as the SNP.

After independence the glue that holds the SNP together goes and it will fracture and cease to exist as the SNP.

Existential problem of all single issue parties though really. From the perspective of someone from south of the border looking in, it appears that the SNP have lost some urgency compared to just a few years ago, they appear to have things sown up really, De facto control, a handily useless and corrupt govt  at whom to point a finger occasionally, safe in the knowledge of almost overwhelming support come election time.

Why rock that boat?

I understand the SNP pretty well, have a couple of mates who are elected, they were a broader church than they are now, that’s just the nature of covering devolution of powers, the Scottish Parliament, etc, and of course the newer breed of SNP politician coming through the ranks.

Anyway, i doubt IndyRef2 will happen any time soon, the tories are in a good position down here, Labour are in absolute disarray, which was helped in part by the rise of the SNP, labour went from having 40 or so MPs in Scotland 15 years ago to 1 as of now!

Still waiting for examples of any pro indy supporters with inflammatory rhetoric.

Well how about

will it still be OK to pigeonhole anybody wanting away from the right wing majority voting neighbours as anti-English?

Or do you need FPTP explained to you again?

Or do you need FPTP explained to you again?

Are you saying that Scotland is the equivalent of just another region in England?

bruce – don’t engage with those who are only here to cause upset and irritation is my advice

Argee – Sturgeon is on her last chance with regards to another referendum

If she does not get one held withing the timescale she has outlined her party will fracture and she will be out with a career ending in failure

There is a section of the independence movement that believes she wants to run scotland as a part of the UK and not as independent.  personally I believe this is nonsense but there are those who believe it ad they are barely keeping their impatience in check.  Most of them have kept to the line for now but if she does not get a referendum done then that will spill over in open warfare and she will be ousted.

And what happens if for a second time in just a short number of years Scots vote to remain in the Union, is that it?

I can’t see the SNP surviving if they ask for and win or lose a referendum on independence, equally if they don’t ask for one then in a few more years that’s the end of them also.

And what happens if for a second time in just a short number of years Scots vote to remain in the Union, is that it?

I would say so yes and IMO thats the reason for Sturgeons caution

bruce – don’t engage with those who are only here to cause upset and irritation is my advice

As is often the case, I think there is a valid point there behind the tone. I think the question is, what makes Scotland so special?

It’s true that London voted to Remain and for not-Johnson. Why should Scotland leave the Union but not London?

I think the obvious answer is that there’s nothing special about Scotland. If London wanted to leave the Union that would be a valid choice as well. However, the fact that London doesn’t want to consider leaving the Union shouldn’t mean that Scotland shouldn’t be allowed to consider leaving.

It might seem like Scottish Exceptionalism to want to leave the Union when individual English regions don’t but I think part of the reason is that English regions generally still identify as English. Overall, I think the majority of Scots identify as Scottish, whether they support independence or not.

So what makes Scotland special? Absolutely nothing. However, the choices of individual English regions shouldn’t force Scotland to accept the same course. Like it or not, there is a Scottish identity that is much stronger than the identity of any individual English region*.

*With the possible exception of Yorkshire 🙂

Also Bruce Scotland is a country with its own legal system and its own political system.  London or english regions are not but if they want to go for independence nothing is stopping them

Its not the politicians that will cease to exist but the party. The SNP is a much broader church than most parties from the urban socialists to the rural hunting shooting fishing lot. After independence the glue that holds the SNP together goes and it will fracture and cease to exist as the SNP.

It would be a shame if/when that does to pass. For me the greatest strength of the SNP is that it is a truly centrist party, which Coes from it’s diverse base. Most of the decisions it takes tend to be sensible, grown up & balanced compromises, not popularist decisions designed to only appease only the left/right.

Also Bruce Scotland is a country with its own legal system and its own political system.

Of course, and it’s own education system. And it’s own bank notes that are always fun to take to England.

It would be a shame if/when that does to pass. For me the greatest strength of the SNP is that it is a truly centrist party, which Coes from it’s diverse base. Most of the decisions it takes tend to be sensible, grown up & balanced compromises, not popularist decisions designed to only appease only the left/right.

I don’t think that would come to an end with independence. In fact, I think the need to compromise and adopt sensible centrist policies would be increased post-independence. I doubt any single party would be able to gain a majority so power sharing would be the norm.

It would be a shame if/when that does to pass. For me the greatest strength of the SNP is that it is a truly centrist party,

Hmmmm – the trouble is its support ranges from left of labour to centre of tory – those forces will be too great to survive post independence

Its like you had Corbyn to Heseltine in the same party

I thik a post independence scotland would see a huge realignment in parties – remember its a prioportional system here

From left to right
A small hard left group consisting of the remnants of the various hard left groups we have had plus the left of labour and maybe a few from the left of the SNP

A centre left group which is the rest of the labour party plus the urban left part of the SNP

LIb dems in the centrish but remaining small.

Centre right group of the left of the tories plus th eright of the SNP

hard right party of uionists and brexiteers from the right of the tory party

I think all our parties bar the lib dems and greens will split up

Hmmmm – the trouble is its support ranges from left of labour to centre of tory – those forces will be too great to survive post independence

Its like you had Corbyn to Heseltine in the same party

Which is exactly my point of it being it’s major strength! The decision makers’ hasve to factor this wide base into their decision making, the result being the decisions are, on the whole considered & balanced.

Generally, in my opinion, this makes for better quality of politics than what we see in Westminster and what makes the SNP appealing to so much of the electorate.

Its really not a strength IMO

Take one example – raptor killings.  No action was taken because of Fergus Ewing.  this is despite the overwhelming evidence and public desire to deal with this.  Ewing was right wing and blocked a much needed and desired policy.  the SNP have finally got rid of him but he had a big powerbase in the rural community so it took a decade to be shot of him.

these gulfs are simply too large to bridge in many cases and leads to the party trying to be all things to everyone but results in paralysis and poor policy making

Which is exactly my point of it being it’s major strength! The decision makers’ hasve to factor this wide base into their decision making, the result being the decisions are, on the whole considered & balanced.

Sure, but you don’t need the SNP to achieve that. Most European countries use some form of Proportional representation so that considered and balanced outcomes are achieved by not having a single party with the majority of votes.

Normally the governing party has to not only keep its own members on board but also convince two or three (or even more) parties to vote with them.

FPTP is no longer fit for purpose (if it ever was).

Or do you need FPTP explained to you again?

Do you need the RIGHT WING majority in parliament explained to you?

(Sorry TJ 😃, I will rubber him now.)

I was thinking earlier about the works of one of my favourite authors. The books are deeply layered but one of the most moving aspects for me is that they are a declaration of his hope for humanity, what he thinks we could be. And I recognise the vision he creates (either consciously or not) as being profoundly British. I’m sure you lot will have realised I am talking about Iain Banks, who was Scottish.

The point is that, for all the talk of individualism, I think the Scots, English and Welsh* are much closer to each other than they realise and that we really do have a fundamentally British identity much more than we do as individual nations.

* I don’t actually know anyone from Northern Ireland.

FPTP is no longer fit for purpose

I’m firmly of the belief that FPTP is the root of most of our problems. It really **** up representation and consequently allows the system to be heavily manipulated.

I would definitely agree with Iain Banks’ views on Scottish Independence:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/may/17/scottish-independence-parties

Nevertheless, I would still hope that in the unlikely event I live as long as my dad – who died when he was 91 – then I shall die in an independent Scotland on the best possible terms with its big English neighbour.

More from the great man here:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2011/aug/28/scottish-independence-snp-iain-banks

I voted Green, Scottish Socialist party, Lib Dem or SNP, mostly as protest votes, but, gradually – and with rather more hope – increasingly for the SNP. Not because I was particularly nationalistic – like a lot of people on the left I’ve always been suspicious of the populist, divisive appeal of nationalism – but because the SNP’s policies were more progressive, more left wing, more fair, in the end, compared to any other party with a realistic chance of achieving power. Labour stopped being Labour, so I became a pragmatic voter for the SNP.