Scotland Indyref 2

raging against a construct of your embittered imagination

Is it really necessary to use such inflammatory language big and daft?  You leap all over this thread throwing out insults.  Please stop

In what way, the people, the politics, geography, popular culture, language, arts? Can you explain?

Sure, England voted for Brexit and then they voted for Boris Johnson. I want to put as much ideological separation between myself and a country that would do that as possible. Who knows what’s next.

Of course, you also have a whole album of greatest hits such as Blair’s invasion of Iraq and Thatcherism.

Not to say that Scotland would automatically be immune to making horrendous decisions. Every country has at some point.

Now, I’m sure what I said was very obviously what I was always going to say. It’s been said repeatedly on this thread and others many times so I’m sure you’ve got a super clever quippy comeback lined up and I’m very excited to hear it.

Please quote a single pejorative anti english post

Anti-English sentiment doesn’t have to come in that form. It’s like racism. Back in the day, this meant ‘I hate black people’. But now we’ve realised that there’s more to it than that. Parts of the US used to plead that ‘separate but equal’ wasn’t racist at all and point to the ‘equal’ bit, saying how could it be racist when it says ‘equal’? Now, if I started a conversation about how black people have a great sense of rhythm, that’d be considered racist. Even though having a good sense of rhythm isn’t a negative.

The problem here is treating the English (and Scottish) as some kind of homogenous group and giving us all guilt by association. And naturally since you are anti-Brexit this means lumping all of us down here with that negative. I’m sure you’ll label this as ‘tosh’ but this is how -isms work.

I’m fairly sure that if the tables were turned, that if it had been Scotland that voted out and Wales that voted remain, you’d be complaining if I were using such language against you. And rightfully so.

am trying to assert that I do not want to be associated with England and Wales anymore. You are saying this is invalid. You are saying it is anti-English. You are saying it is othering.

I personally am not, I have conflicted opinions on Scottish (and Welsh) independence. What I am trying to point out is that you and TJ are both using anti-English rhetoric without apparently realising it. It’s a bit like Johnson referring to the EU as ‘friends and allies’ whilst promoting Brexit.

Your problem (and mine!) is with Westminster and the Tory party. Not England or Wales.

There is no anti english sentiment expressed at all that I have seen.  

Several of us have perceived it in comments made. There’s no such thing as a wrong perception. The fact that this concern keeps coming up suggests there’s an issue on one side or the other.

Then please, please, please report the offending posts/posters to the mods. What you are doing at the moment is the definition of playing the man not the ball. You are not engaging in debate. You are saying our opinions are invalid because we are anti-English.

If our comments are anti-English then report it and the mods will warn/ban us. If not, please stop accusing us.

Your problem (and mine!) is with Westminster and the Tory party. Not England or Wales.

I think it might be more accurate to say the problem is with the “democratic” decisions of the people of England and Wales, and their implications for the rest of Union.

Several of us have perceived it in comments made

It is pretty noticeable. Not as bad as it has been, though particularly interesting given what has been said in the forum behaviour thread.

It is pretty noticeable.

Please report it.

Given the comments on the behaviour thread about people repeatedly stepping up to a line, but not quite over it, the irony on this thread is off the scale.

I think it might be more accurate to say the problem is with the “democratic” decisions of the people of England and Wales,

Not really. If you add ‘some’ or ‘minority of’ before people rather than ‘the’ then you are getting closer (but it is still a way off)

Given the comments on the behaviour thread about people repeatedly stepping up to a line, but not quite over it, the irony on this thread is off the scale.

Report it or stop accusing us, please.

I think it might be more accurate to say the problem is with the “democratic” decisions of the people of England and Wales,

I’m not so sure, I mean the referendum was offered by the government and its results was acted upon by the government.

I think it might be more accurate to say the problem is with the “democratic” decisions of the people of England and Wales,

Again this is generalising. FPTP elections and binary referendums have to do work like this – but government doesn’t, and neither do you.

Report it or stop accusing us, please.

Done.

This is getting tiresome, you made this exact argument in the forum behaviour thread and now, when you’re being called out, seem happy to just ignore it.

I can see exactly where they are coming from, it’s a crap argument and just detracts from everything else.

Done.

This is getting tiresome, you made this exact argument in the forum behaviour thread and now, when you’re being called out, seem happy to just ignore it.

Well done. What has been happening is exactly what Mark was talking about. People are playing the man not the ball. Anyone in favour of independence is being accused of being anti-English.

Debate the facts, don’t attack our characters.

Is it really necessary to use such inflammatory language big and daft?

Seriously? have you got no insight at all?

OK, having gone away, opened a beer, and had a think, yes, my language was inflammatory, albeit unintentionally.

The problem is it’s difficult to find a diplomatic way of referring to the decisions made by the population in England whilst acknowledging that almost no one here shares those views.

I apologise.

However, please understand that it’s felt very insulting to have been accused of anti-English sentiments for two pages when, imo, it’s not justified.

Well done @BruceWee for taking some time to think about things and having the balls to apologise.

My use of the word “perception” was meant to imply that I didn’t feel it was necessarily intentional, but it felt like it pushed everyone into their trenches.

I’m sorry if my reaction contributed to the way things went.

On some factual points:

Scotland didn’t choose to leave the EU – 68% of voters in the referendum opposed EU Exit – the decision can be perceived as imposed on Scotland.

The National is not an unbiased source of information.

Thanks BruceWee. If it helps, I’ve been accused of racism, justifiably so, and I try hard not to be racist. I said things I didn’t realise were racist or would be interpreted as such.

The decision to leave the EU wasn’t taken by ‘the English’, it should be clear by now there is no collective English mind. The decision to have the referendum and to subsequently leave the EU was taken by the government, and more English people voted to leave than not. But there is no single group of ‘English people’ any more than there is one of ‘Scottish people’.

the decision can be perceived as imposed on Scotland

Indeed. The decision was also imposed on London, and Cardiff for that matter.

The decision to leave the EU wasn’t taken by ‘the English’, it should be clear by now there is no collective English mind.

Of course that’s true.

Just for a bit of context, for my part, I’ve lived a lot of my life abroad and from a young age. It’s been a constant throughout that English people (not all but a lot) will automatically refer to England or the English when what they mean is the UK or people from the UK.

I’ve always laughed it off as a joke or a ‘typical English’ response. It has always irritated me though but I didn’t want to seem like I was one of ‘those’ type of Scottish people.

I’m very sensitive to English people who I feel don’t view Scotland as a real country but rather just another region in ‘England’.

I think we should be very careful about how we refer to the decision made in 2016. I also feel we should be very careful about how we refer to Scotland and keep in mind that implying that Scotland is somehow just a region in Greater England is very provoking.

It’s been a constant throughout that English people (not all but a lot) will automatically refer to England or the English when what they mean is the UK or people from the UK.

Try being Welsh!

But yes I recognise that, and it’s frigging annoying. I mean, English people using the term England as a synonym for the UK is not explicitly anti-Welsh (or anti-Scottish), but it still is.

The whole nationalism thing is absolutely fraught. I mean, the UK is not homogenous, but neither is Scotland, England or Wales. That border is a pretty arbitrary line as I’ve always maintained, however I completely understand the attraction of separating yourself from what is right now an unfavourable political situatino.

As well as Scotland, London and Cardiff, the decision was imposed on every single individual remainer. But let’s be clear, it’s far less the fault of Sandra from Skegness than it is of Michael Gove from Aberdeen. It doesn’t matter if you’re English, Scottish, Welsh or N. Irish, Brexit has been imposed upon us all by a corrupt and corrupting government. We should blame them and not the people, many of whom were duped, who voted for it.

Anyway, this is about Indyref2 not Brexit. And imo the people of Scotland should be given the chance to decide their future again now that things have changed so much.

Well that was quite something to come in from work and find reported on. I can very much see both sides of the argument, I will say @BruceWee thank you for considering what you posted and apologising.

Now can we concentrate on the thread subject please and not who is right or wrong.

Just use leavers and remain not the target a geographical populous.

I want to see examples of this supposed anti english sentiment.  No one seems to be able to give any

Its really very insulting to be acused of anti anything when you are not.

I do not accept Molgrips idea that referring to England is anti english.

I had a letter from the US once.
Addressed to: Pilot, 22 The Grove, Cardiff,* Wales, England.
FFS!
*This bit made up for effect btw

That border is a pretty arbitrary line as I’ve always maintained,

apart from its been a national border for many hundred years

I really am offended being called an anti english racist.  Its not acceptable unless you back it up

I really am offended being called an anti english racist.  Its not acceptable unless you back it up

I haven’t seen that you have been, can you back that up?

Just use leavers and remain not the target a geographical populous.

Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s that simple. One of the key questions of this debate is, ‘Are the Scots and the English* sufficiently different that Scotland and rUK should be divorced?’
*I know I’m ignoring NI and Wales but the fact is the absolutely dominant partner in this UK is England.

The biggest differences between the Scots population as a whole and the English population as a whole is political and this was illustrated by the referendum and electing Boris Johnson.

The voting habits of the populations are going to come up again and again in this debate but I think that this can be done so long as independence minded Scots are careful how they refer to the referendum and most recent election.

And that people avoid implying that Scotland is somehow the equivalent of an English region.

What I am trying to point out is that you and TJ are both using anti-English rhetoric without apparently realising it.

What we are saying is NOT anti english rhetoric nor are either of us anti english.  I am English!

I want to see examples of this supposed anti english sentiment. No one seems to be able to give any

Can we stop please.

OK – Crossed posts Drac.

And that people avoid implying that Scotland is somehow the equivalent of an English region.

Yeah, that really won’t go down well with people in Yorkshire 😉

@tjagain I think everyone was saying things they maybe didn’t mean and there was a lack of tolerance and understanding on all sides in the last few pages.

I think it’s important to point it out if anyone says anything we feel is provoking going forward but maybe we can try putting the last few pages behind us?

Well put @Brucewee thanks

OK – got that message from Drac as well

I’m Welsh, live in Scotland (don’t plan to vote in Indyref2 if it happens while I’m still here because I plan to leave) and voted Remain which just goes to show what utter nonsense intheborders is talking.

I was talking about our Brexiter Unionist – small_and_soft 🙂

A second indyref is just as far away as ever, Brexit is done, no reversing that now, Scotland, even if independent would struggle to get inside the EU, and even then, would be way down the pecking order, so having to give a lot of promises that the Scottish population would need to live with. Coming out of the pandemic isn’t going to make it any easier for any indy movement in the next few years either.

It’s getting a bit boring with the SNP pointing to Boris and saying you voted him in, yes, the tories are in charge just now, the reason for that is long and complex, but includes the complete failure in a capable challenge from the opposition, the internal destruction of the LibDems, etc, etc.

As for Boris, he’ll be gone soon, another one will come in, the SNP need to start putting together valid reasons for another vote on independence, they’re getting stagnant after 15 years in complete control, people are starting to sneer at them the same as they sneer at the tories, i hear a lot of disgruntled stuff about the SNP focus at present, and the members in their cabinet, there’s a lot of work to do before any indyref is put forward!

Anyway, i’ll let TJ get on with sealioning again, shouldn’t get in the way of that with actual responses to the subject ;o)

I had a letter from the US once.
Addressed to: Pilot, 22 The Grove, Cardiff,* Wales, England.

I once worked on a system that rather than keep a list of every city in the world for address entry it allowed you to input your own city and pick the country, and it would get written into the database. The database contained all sorts of rubbish in the form of spelling mistakes and cities called Smith or 39 Acacia Avenue, but also howlers like Cardiff, England and even Belfast, Ireland and variations thereof. And many times over, they weren’t one-offs.

But yes I recognise that, and it’s frigging annoying. I mean, English people using the term England as a synonym for the UK is not explicitly anti-Welsh (or anti-Scottish), but it still is.

Other than Americans who does? I may have to apologise to those in NI for referring to the UK as Britain occasionally but other than for rugby and football England in place of UK isn’t used to anywhere I socialise or read

I was talking about our Brexiter Unionist – small_and_soft

Does the fact you can’t pigeonhole me accurately give you cognitive dissonance? Or are you just a bit obsessed that one automatically means the other. Do you have no room in your head for political nuances?

Do we now start talking about Scotshitters? After all we talk about brexishit with free abandon……

I think it’s important to point it out if anyone says anything we feel is provoking going forward but maybe we can try putting the last few pages behind us?

Oops!

Double checks timeline

Nope

The database contained all sorts of rubbish in the form of spelling mistakes and cities called Smith or 39 Acacia Avenue, but also howlers like Cardiff, England and even Belfast, Ireland and variations thereof. And many times over, they weren’t one-offs.

You needed to pay your off-shore programmers a bit more, it wouldn’t have been written by a UK national