Scotland Indyref 2

the homogeneous “England” so hated

I do wish you would stop with this canard.   Its just not so at all that hatred of of England is there across the vast majority of the independence movement

Sturgeon has to get an indpendence vote organised shortly or her party will run out of patience

The EU exit has convinced me even more (here in England) that we would be stronger together, and how promises of money and funding made to deliver votes don’t deliver when it matters.

So you need us to stop England imploding because of Brexit?

You lot voted for Brexit, take responsibility for your actions. I see no reason whatsoever why Scotland has to help with your FU, nor why we should suffer from YOUR choice of Govt.

Its just not so at all that hatred of of England is there across the vast majority of the independence movement

You lot voted for Brexit, take responsibility for your actions. I see no reason whatsoever why Scotland has to help with your FU, nor why we should suffer from YOUR choice of Govt.

Slight disgruntlement then? A bit miffed? Still homogenised othering.

I’m assuming big_n_soft that you’re also a Leaver, based on your solid Unionist views, you’re a star, great choice, thanks…

I’m assuming big_n_soft that you’re also a Leaver, based on your solid Unionist views, you’re a star, great choice, thanks…

Showing the perils of using stereotypes and othering of people, you are just raging against a construct of your embittered imagination

Still homogenised othering.

Interesting use of language. ‘Othering’ typically suggests that we are trying to make you (English people) less than human.

As a population English people vote differently to Scots. I don’t think that’s in question.

Personally I haven’t seen anyone say anything to suggest that we see English people as sub-human. If you have then you should report it to the mods. It’s a serious accusation and the type of thing we should be trying to get rid of in the forum.

If you’re just using it to score points then shame on you.

I think scottish indy is inevitable in some form now, brexit showed how different england & scotland are, tehcnically (johnson’s hard) brexit makes it harder, but referenda are about heart not head

Tinfoil hat time: i think putin was aware of this too and hes quite happy with brexit–> indy–> nuclear subs leaving top of UK

Othering’ typically suggests that we are trying to make you (English people) less than human.

No it doesn’t, you are just extrapolating to close the point down

Anyone who thinks that the population of England is a homogeneous blob is clearly trying to create a difference in order to create division

The way the electorate vote differently is distorted mainly by the presence of a nationalist party and it’s success in creating and now in power funding a narrative of a difference between Scots and rUK all the while Scotland is exporting senior politicians and prime ministers to the UK parliament they blame for their woes

No it doesn’t, you are just extrapolating to close the point down

OK, what is ‘othering’ to you?

From wikipedia:

The term Othering describes the reductive action of labelling and defining a person as a subaltern native, as someone who belongs to the socially subordinate category of the Other. The practice of Othering excludes persons who do not fit the norm of the social group, which is a version of the Self;[7] likewise, in human geography, the practice of othering persons means to exclude and displace them from the social group to the margins of society, where mainstream social norms do not apply to them, for being the Other.[8]

It’s not a term to be just thrown around, it’s a serious accusation.

Is it othering to say ‘I feel more European than British’?

Given the choice most Scots would rather not be forced to choose between Europe and Britain but thanks to the majority of voters in England and Wales, we have been forced to choose.

If saying I’d rather be European than British is othering towards English people, how is saying I’d rather be British than European not othering towards Europeans?

Like I said, if you are throwing that term around just to score points it’s really not on.

The chapter on the UK in Tim Marshalls The Power of Geography makes some very interesting points on Scottish independence,the book has a whole is well worth a read. I don’t think that a Tory government is going to sanction another referendum, and holding a unilateral referendum would be massively problematic (Spain being a good example of this)

There are substantial differences all across the UK, the homogeneous “England” so hated doesn’t exist except in the minds of those who are trying to carve out a separate identity so as not to be tainted by decisions they don’t like

A good point.

Personally I haven’t seen anyone say anything to suggest that we see English people as sub-human

That’s a false extrapolation. No-one’s suggesting the Scottish ‘hate’ the English or consider them sub-human. It’s more subtle and insiduous than that (as it usually is when it comes to nationalism). There is a strong ‘they aren’t like us’ vibe on this very page, like so:

You lot voted for Brexit, take responsibility for your actions.

Why would you possibly lump all English together ‘as a population’ ? That makes no sense whatsoever and it’s precisely this that gets English (and Welsh) backs up. How dare you accuse me of endorsing Brexit, just because some other people who happen to live here did? How am I bound to some Brexiteer in Lincolnshire by association and you are somehow free? It’s ludicrous. A lot of Scottish people voted for Brexit too, you know. And a lot of English voted against it.

There is a strong ‘they aren’t like us’ vibe on this very page

Until Scotland was forced into making a choice between Europe and Britain, the question of whether Scotland and England were alike was academic.

Now it is no longer academic. English and Welsh voters (no individual English or Welsh person but the voting population as a whole so no need to ‘How dare you!?’ me) have made us (the Scottish voting population, not an individual Scot) pick a side.

So I’ll repeat my question. Now that you have forced us to pick between Europe and Britain, how is it othering to say ‘I choose Europe’?

Now that you have forced us to pick between Europe and Britain

You mean “now that Scotland has been forced to pick…”

This is what I mean about inflammatory language and anti-English sentiment.

Until Scotland was forced into making a choice between Europe and Britain

You aren’t forced, I suggest you look back a few pages, the whole should Scotland join the EU discussion was hardly conclusive.

If you want a hard border between iS and rUK then EU membership is the best way to achieve it

If you want a hard border between iS and rUK then EU membership is the best way to achieve it

And?………

You mean “now that Scotland has been forced to pick…”

This is what I mean about inflammatory language and anti-English sentiment.

You would prefer it if I said that Scotland was forced to pick because of some unknown phenomena?

Why? It might be inflammatory but it is also the most accurate way of describing the situation. You want me to adjust my language to spare your (as in the English and Welsh voting populations, not you individually) blushes but if you’re embarrassed by it then it suggests you (as in the English and Welsh voting populations, not you individually) have something to be embarrassed about.

As I said, I’m pro-European. I don’t believe I’m anti-English but if by your definition you can’t be pro-European without being anti-English then there’s not much I can do about it.

You would prefer it if I said that Scotland was forced to pick because of some unknown phenomena?

No, I want you to stop using the word ‘you’ in this context.

but if you’re embarrassed by it then it suggests you (as in the English and Welsh voting populations, not you individually) have something to be embarrassed about.

Of course, I would imagine most remain voters are utterly embarrassed and humiliated by this. I’m not sure what your line of reasoning is here.

And?………

Buy land next to the border motorways

I don’t believe I’m anti-English

Yeah, see, the use of this ‘us vs them’ language and argument is implicitly anti-English by virtue of you not being English. Don’t you see?

As I said, I’m pro-European. I don’t believe I’m anti-English but if by your definition you can’t be pro-European without being anti-English then there’s not much I can do about it.

More pro EU government

And anti primacy of Westminster government

You want to reclaim sovereignty from one to give (back) to the other

Being pro-European is a statement of geography and location

You aren’t forced,

Yes we were.

I suggest you look back a few pages, the whole should Scotland join the EU discussion was hardly conclusive.

That’s true. However, there is a general consensus within Scotland that the current suicidal pursuit of sovereignty that England and Wales are hell bent on is a bad idea and forming closer ties with Europe is infinitely preferable.

If you want a hard border between iS and rUK then EU membership is the best way to achieve it

Well, that’s up to you (as in the English and Welsh voting populations, not you individually).

You lot voted for Brexit, take responsibility for your actions. I see no reason whatsoever why Scotland has to help with your FU, nor why we should suffer from YOUR choice of Govt.

That’s the kind of “lumping all the English together” twaddle that causes a lot of useless aggravation on here, but hey, I’m outnumbered by idiots down here, I get that.

Back to the points I was making that got overlooked in the rush to slap down the English bloke 😉 :

1) if I was in Scotland, I could be persuaded to vote for independence
2) Brexit has shown how hard it is to untangle from unions, that might need to be born in mind if the SNP start making it sound a piece of cake
3) any financial promises made to encourage people to vote for independence are not worth the bus they were written on after the vote
4) still seeing and hearing independence being an easy way back into the EU. It probably won’t be that easy either.

No, I want you to stop using the word ‘you’ in this context.

That’s why I’ve started adding (as in the English and Welsh voting populations, not you individually) to every reference to ‘you’ so that there can be no confusion.

Yeah, see, the use of this ‘us vs them’ language and argument is implicitly anti-English by virtue of you not being English. Don’t you see?

Well, like I said, we’ve been forced into choosing. I’ve chosen. Sorry if you don’t like my choice but I prefer Europe to England and Wales.

You want to reclaim sovereignty from one to give (back) to the other

So I was right.

Didn’t you understand what you were voting for?

And to use my often quoted comment:
“Brexit isn’t the destination it’s the vehicle”

In this case Brexit is the vehicle WE’RE using for independence.

Sorry if you don’t like my choice but I prefer Europe to England and Wales.

It’s nothing to do with that. I’m trying to point out why your posts seem anti-English. You’re lumping every English person in with Brexiters, talking as if somehow this shit-show is every English person’s fault and responsibility.

That’s why I’ve started adding (as in the English and Welsh voting populations, not you individually) to every reference to ‘you’ so that there can be no confusion.

That’s no better, I’m a member of the English and Welsh voting population. I’m in no way responsible for any of this. Why not just say ‘Brexit has forced this’ instead of making it personal? The reasons for Brexit are long and complex, and involve lots of individual actors, and people voted either way for a whole host of different reasons. It does no-one any favours at all to generalise like this. In short, do better with your language or face questions as to why you are choosing the words you do.

I think scottish indy is inevitable in some form now

having seen the issues that Brexit has caused (not least with respect to borders) I can see appetite for an Indy vote slipping away if I’m honest. I don’t see Sturgeon being that vocal in her demands for one, seems like the SNP are phoning it in at the moment. And why wouldn’t they? They’ve got everything neatly tied up just so.

What year is the SNP proposing for a new binding referendum? Announcement within weeks apparently

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19870772.scottish-independence-downing-street-calls-snp-stop-planning-indyref2/

My point was, that to anyone with half an ounce of sense in the indy campaign – proposing a referendum and actually expecting day 1 of “freedom” to begin are a rather large distance apart. The Conservative policy to hold a referendum was announced in Jan 2013 with the European Union Referendum Bill tabled at Westminster in May 2015, and the referendum a year later depending how you define day 1 outside the EU it would be either 31st Jan 2020, 1st Jan 2021 (customs union) so somewhere between 5.5 and 8 yrs depending when you count the start and end. That’s to end a union of 40 years with a clear mechanism to terminate it rather than one of 400 odd years that has no simple break clause with fixed timelines etc, and where massive amounts of our systems are entwined. There’s nobody credible really believes we could be “out” in a short time period. They may not admit that as its not part of their negotiating position, but to be jumping on an oil price boom? it will probably have dropped and boomed again at least once before anyone has a Scottish passport.

Well said on Brexit, @molgrips.
I’m Welsh, live in Scotland (don’t plan to vote in Indyref2 if it happens while I’m still here because I plan to leave) and voted Remain which just goes to show what utter nonsense intheborders is talking.

No-one’s suggesting the Scottish ‘hate’ the English or consider them sub-human.

Big and daft has said exactly that.

Yeah, see, the use of this ‘us vs them’ language and argument is implicitly anti-English by virtue of you not being English. Don’t you see?

It really is not at all Molgrips

I’m with molgrips on this – interesting that after recent threads and discussions some have stepped back from what can come across as “anti-English” language, intentional or not, and others have stepped up.

I’d hope that you could support your own “nation” without being “anti” another.

There is no anti english sentiment expressed at all that I have seen.  Its actually quite offensive to be continually falsely accused of being anti english.

Please quote a single pejorative anti english post

You want to reclaim sovereignty from one to give (back) to the other

You do realise that in the EU sovereignty is pooled and everyone gets a say whereas in the UK Scotland has relinquished its sovereignty entirely and has no say at all

The idea that Scotland would be losing sovereignty is bogus.  iScotland would be gaining sovereignty that it does not have right now and would have far more say in the running of the EU than it does in the UK

It’s nothing to do with that. I’m trying to point out why your posts seem anti-English. You’re lumping every English person in with Brexiters, talking as if somehow this shit-show is every English person’s fault and responsibility.

That’s no better, I’m a member of the English and Welsh voting population. I’m in no way responsible for any of this. Why not just say ‘Brexit has forced this’ instead of making it personal? The reasons for Brexit are long and complex, and involve lots of individual actors, and people voted either way for a whole host of different reasons. It does no-one any favours at all to generalise like this. In short, do better with your language or face questions as to why you are choosing the words you do.

I’m really not. I entirely understand that almost half of voters voted against Brexit and that probably more than half would vote against Brexit if the vote was held today.

However, you also have to look closely at the language you are using. I am trying to assert that I do not want to be associated with England and Wales anymore. You are saying this is invalid. You are saying it is anti-English. You are saying it is othering.

Just by saying I don’t want to be associated with the referendum results and the country that elected Boris **** Johnson you accuse me of what’s getting very close to bigotry.

I’ll watch my language. I’d appreciate it if you would do the same.

I’d hope that you could support your own “nation” without being “anti” another.

England and Wales are the ones who forced the rest of the UK into choosing between Britain and Europe. If it’s anti-English to say I choose Europe then it’s anti-European to say I choose Britain.

You can’t have it both ways.

Question for the above sensitive people from districts other than Scotland. I am wondering where the posters who are so tuned into Anti English language were during the first few pages of this thread when Scots were getting a kicking?

I’d hope that you could support your own “nation” without being “anti” another.

You can, even if some people want to try to claim otherwise.

I am trying to assert that I do not want to be associated with England and Wales anymore.

In what way, the people, the politics, geography, popular culture, language, arts? Can you explain?

Can we please have these quotes showing the “anti english” sentiment and the “hatred”

Didn’t you understand what you were voting for?

Yes, what you have done is either extrapolated my comment to the way the UK majority vote went or are you still raging against a construct of your embittered imagination