Scotland Indyref 2

Molgrips – please stop being so offensive about a topic you clearly do not understand one iota

No one has said we are all homogeneous either side of the border – just that the average or mid point is in a different place.

Your ignorance here shines thru.  Scotland has a long history going back hundreds of years of community and social action / desire for social justice. There has been a fair amount of discussion as to why that is on this thread but if you are going to comment please both listen to what those better informed than yo are saying and read some history

Please – you are are being quite offensive.  Take a step back and think why

You mean “please stop disagreeing with me”?

No, I don’t think I will. I might stop responding to you though as it’s not good for the thread or anyone’s mental health.

NO – I mean stop being offensive.  I mean what I say.  I am not the only one to call you out on this.  Disagree all you like but you cannot just say ” you are wrong”  Your reply to poly was both arrogant and offensive

I might stop responding to you though as it’s not good for the thread or anyone’s mental health.

Maybe a good idea. You’re not coming across well coming out with stuff like this.

Poly is a very well informed person – more so than me.  I don’t always agree with them but they can back up what they say

You continually put words in peoples mouths because of your lack of understanding of the basic concepts

this was Polys reply to you – care to comment?

@molgrips

I’m actually pretty convinced that we are.

Oof.

You need to have a think about how media works and how you get your information.

Wow downright patronising! Out of interest do you think my knowledge of England or my knowledge of Scotland is wrong and which bits of which media do you think influenced me to arrive at such a wrong conclusion?

molgrips
Full Member
You mean “please stop disagreeing with me”?

No, I don’t think I will. I might stop responding to you though as it’s not good for the thread or anyone’s mental health.

I think a better reason would be that we all understand you are British nationalist and won’t ever agree with anything that endangers it. 😆

I think thats unfair seesamh- Molgrips simply hasn’t the knowledge or the understanding on this topic and doesn’t realise he doesn’t

I think a better reason would be that we all understand you are British nationalist and won’t ever agree with anything that endangers it.

Not really. I’d seriously consider voting for Welsh independence if it ever came up.

What I object to is Scottish exceptionalism along with everyone else’s exceptionalism. I’m happy to discuss the implications and motivations of independence for UK nations; I only pipe up when the stench of ‘we’re better than you’ becomes overpowering. And I know you’ll protest that, but the stench is still there.

And the justification you usually bring out, which is “we want control over our government” is just the same sentiment dressed up differently. It’s the assumption that living on one side of the line or the other makes you somehow different to those born on the other side.

TJ’s description of pragmatic nationalism, as a means to an end, is about the most sensible thing on these threads, however what he then goes on to write later starts to get my heckles up, he can’t seem to talk about it without sounding exceptionalist.

Molgrips simply hasn’t the knowledge or the understanding on this topic and doesn’t realise he doesn’t

It’s more a case that you aren’t understanding what I’m trying to say. You are too quick to read, assume and jump in with the fingers to keyboard. I’d love to discuss more but you make it really difficult with your tone of voice.

It’s not unfair at all.

What I object to is Scottish exceptionalism along with everyone else’s exceptionalism.

Care to point this out?  I see no sign of it indeed a fair bit of discussion around this point in effect seeking the roots of the clear and obvious differences in political view.

And the justification you usually bring out, which is “we want control over our government” is just the same sentiment dressed up differently. It’s the assumption that living on one side of the line or the other makes you somehow different to those born on the other side.

this is simply neither logical or true.  Scotland is a country  Has been since gawd know when.  Its part of a union of countries.  Many of us feel the union no longer meets our needs.  there is no assumption we are different.

Again please point this out?  My thesis is that the political difference shown in voting patterns come from difference in political leadership – and that point has been discussed on here

My guess is you are seeing what yo are lookiig for.  I understand your sentiment – I am internationalist in my viewpoint.  But because this is a particular bugbear for you you see it everywhere.  Ever heard of the “Scottish cringe”?  hardly a doctrine of exceptionalism!

Care to comment on Polys reply to you earlier?

What I object to is Scottish exceptionalism along with everyone else’s exceptionalism. I’m happy to discuss the implications and motivations of independence for UK nations; I only pipe up when the stench of ‘we’re better than you’ becomes overpowering. And I know you’ll protest that, but the stench is still there.

Enlighten me. Where did I suggest Scotland was better or even exceptional. I said different and even explicitly said something to the effect of not that any western countries are that different, and your reaction was to the effect that I must be being brainwashed by some media (I’ve no idea which media you think that is).

As this thread drifted on to party politics here is a thought I had.  My feeling is that tories with gravitas or are a bit tweedy do better in Scotland rather than the city boy / spiv type

Think Rifkind ( a lawyer with a bit of gravitas) or Goldie ( a rather tweedy type)  Davidson being the exception to this theory

Would the torys in Scotland do better with someone like that at the helm?  do they even exist any more?  Ross is just a nonentity and does not come over well at all.

If only Dross was a non-entity he’s much worse than that

gordimhor
Full Member
If only Dross was a non-entity he’s much worse than that

Aye, a referee. 😆

Aye, a referee

🤣He’s no even that

Molgrips – please stop being so offensive about a topic you clearly do not understand one iota

No one has said we are all homogeneous either side of the border – just that the average or mid point is in a different place.

Your ignorance here shines thru. Scotland has a long history going back hundreds of years of community and social action / desire for social justice. There has been a fair amount of discussion as to why that is on this thread but if you are going to comment please both listen to what those better informed than yo are saying and read some history

Please – you are are being quite offensive. Take a step back and think why

Tj: It could be argued that this is far more offensive than anything Molgrips said.
For the briefest of moments a while ago, I considered that I might vote for independence. But, as with prior to the last independence vote, anyone who questions the dubious claims of those arguing for independence gets shouted down.

Ok – I don’t see that as offensive but if it is then I do apologise,

Ok – I don’t see that as offensive but if it is then I do apologise,

Fair enough, but you told him he does not understand- essentially disagrees with you, was ignorant and unthinking.
The pro independence side has a habit of shouting down anyone who is in any doubt, rather than explain their points clearly, imho.

The pro independence side has a habit of shouting down anyone who is in any doubt, rather than explain their points clearly, imho.

Yes it does happen but please note i was not the only one offended by Molgrips accusations and there are unionist scots on this thread

the discussion was pretty good tempered until Molgrips came in and attempted to tell us what we were saying , getting it wrong and would not listen when it was attempted to explain why he was wrong

When you argue from a false premise then the argument is false.  to accuse people on multiple occasions of doing things they are not doing because you do not understand the basic premise is very frustrating

gauss1777
Free Member
Ok – I don’t see that as offensive but if it is then I do apologise,

Fair enough, but you told him he does not understand- essentially disagrees with you, was ignorant and unthinking.
The pro independence side has a habit of shouting down anyone who is in any doubt, rather than explain their points clearly, imho.

molgrips has more than a habit of telling everyone they are scottish exceptionalists though, just cause he thinks so, it’s his thing. 😆 He shall not deviate from this unwavering truth he’s concocted in his brain. 😆

Thats the point.  We can see a difference – thats not  a value judgement.  We were exploring why the difference ( much more leftward voting, no politicians use anti immigrant rhetoric etc etc)  We then get accused of exceptionalism which involves a value judgement

We were saying ” there is this difference.  Why?  is it this is it that? including discussing options that frankly do not show the scots in a good light We also discussed the nastier side of the debate ( sectarianism)

Molgrips comes in and accuses us of thinking we are superior

I think Seosamh is too tough on Molgrips and called him out for it.  We didn’t fall out ( did we ?)  😉

couple of unionist Scots put their 2 bob worth in – the debate remained respectful

Well, that’s not the way it comes across.

Fair enough Gauss.  We need folk like you onside!

Invariably on this thread it is people pissing INTO the tent that make claims about Scottish exceptionalists. I don’t actually remember a time in the 30 years I have been able to vote that we had less in common with the neighbours politically, and I include Thatchers mob in that.It just seems a recent variation on the “too wee.” theme from about the time of the first referendum.

Indeed – there is nothing exceptionalist about looking to the nordic and low countries and thinking – we could be like that.  You know – comprehensive welfare systems, decent levels of benefits, decent housing for all.

If Denmark can do it so can we.  thats not exceptionalism

Thoughts on the consequences of a new European war?

I feel like the dynamic of the discussion will shift feelings away from yes and towards a common threat. Not everyone, but enough to “maybe” put things out of reach.

I was a No, have changed to a Yes in the last couple of years and will remain a Yes as I see our countries as still wanting to tread different paths and I think we should be allowed to do so. I don’t think Putin’s land grab will change that.

I would think little difference.  There is little appetite IMO north of the border for going around pretending to be billy bigbaws and pretending we are a big player in the world.

Politically Scotland is now so far apart from England & Wales that we’re already like two different countries, and I don’t see this changing.

May will no doubt see another exercise which demonstrates we’ve had enough.

I feel like the dynamic of the discussion will shift feelings away from yes and towards a common threat.

Like the UK’s Armed Force’s dependence on recruitment north of the border? Sadly, there’s some in the military that will welcome this as the prospect of conflict drives up recruitment. Particularly when those flag-waving patriots realise that the ‘days of empire’ mean we have the smallest Army in over 200 years and no pink bits on the map to force people into conscription?

The biggest threat has been the dark money flowing from the east into London and corrupting those in Whitehall, particularly in the Conservative and Unionist party and their dawning realisation they’ve been ‘played’. They’ve done well putting their stooges such as Johnson and Trump into high office as the resulting chaos has served their agenda well.

I would think little difference.

It’s fair to say you are more confident than me. I’m not certain what impact it will all have at all.

I would think little difference. There is little appetite IMO north of the border for going around pretending to be billy bigbaws and pretending we are a big player in the world.

I would suggest that we are demonstrating that we aren’t.

As for the independence discussion I’m sure now the oil and gas price is at a historic high the voices to grab the opportunity to push for a binding vote quickly whilst the numbers add up will get very loud

As for the independence discussion I’m sure now the oil and gas price is at a historic high the voices to grab the opportunity to push for a binding vote quickly whilst the numbers add up will get very loud

Let’s be clear, all but the most staunch indy campaigners don’t expect Indy to be an overnight thing – so grabbing it whilst prices are briefly high isn’t credible. The only people I’ve heard mentioning oil and indy in the same sentence in the last 5 years are Unionists still arguing against a 2014 campaign. Whether its COP26, the Green tie up, or just climate change in general it’s clear that the less rabid of the Indy movement have shifted their energy policies away from oil. I think given many Scottish Voters probably couldn’t draw Ukraine on a map, never mind connect how war = high oil prices = more money for treasury = potentially improved standard of living in the UK, I think the debate around domestic utility bills in a part of the UK with such renewables resources is more likely to resonate as the price of oil impacts peoples pockets directly.

Let’s be clear, all but the most staunch indy campaigners don’t expect Indy to be an overnight thing –

What year is the SNP proposing for a new binding referendum? Announcement within weeks apparently

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19870772.scottish-independence-downing-street-calls-snp-stop-planning-indyref2/

I’d like to think that the Brexit debacle untangling ourself from Europe would make people question the practicalities of independence. The EU exit has convinced me even more (here in England) that we would be stronger together, and how promises of money and funding made to deliver votes don’t deliver when it matters.

Sadly the attitude and incompetence of the Whitehall government and the more measured responses from Sturgeon must be adding support to the Indy campaign, and if I was north of the border I may well have a different view

Politically Scotland is now so far apart from England & Wales

Bear in mind that whilst Wales might be in the same jurisdiction it is very different to England politically.

Sadly the attitude and incompetence of the Whitehall government and the more measured responses from Sturgeon must be adding support to the Indy campaign, and if I was north of the border I may well have a different view

It’s the Andy Burnham effect, you can make lots of noises on issues outside your responsibilities and sound very good. When you have the civil servants giving you the detailed analysis of the impact of various decisions life gets a lot harder. Sturgeon’s record on core devolved issues is poor, education, health, etc she wants to spend more but that’s easy to say when you don’t get blamed for tax rises

Bear in mind that whilst Wales might be in the same jurisdiction it is very different to England politically.

There are substantial differences all across the UK, the homogeneous “England” so hated doesn’t exist except in the minds of those who are trying to carve out a separate identity so as not to be tainted by decisions they don’t like

The biggest threat has been the dark money flowing from the east into London and corrupting those in Whitehall

Lets not pretend some of that money hasn’t undoubtedly made it’s way up here as well.