Scotland Indyref 2

tjagain

But the SNP are not the same as the electorate. Ukip got 7% of the vote at their peak compared to 25% in england – and no one that votes SNP now will vote UKIP or hard right in the future. they might vote for a future centre right grouping but that movement willbe small

I don’t think you can make that assumption, views on immigration are almost identical across England and Scotland, and Wales in fact also.

The SNP really are amazing, in that they’ve remained so domininat for so long in Scottish politics

The indy question kepps them sustained as a broad church, inspite of any failings or contradictions between supporters.

The irony for tory or Labour voters in Scotland is that this doesn’t seem likely to change, the only way the SNP hegemony will be broken would be for them to actually gain independence & then a more ‘normal’ political landscape should resume

I don’t think you can make that assumption, views on immigration are almost identical across England and Scotland, and Wales in fact also.

Care to provide evidence?

I tend to agree – the best way to get rid of the SNP as scottish government is to vote for independence.  But point of order – they have only been dominant for around 15 years or so.  labour were completely dominant for 40 years

number of penalties they get is reduced!

I take it you’ve not seen yer goal from last night then? 😉🤣

True, I wouldn’t say I was a “SNP guy”. They’re a tool to an end and for me that would be a coalition with good Green party representation

Put all that together and then the SNP really have no choice but to get the referendum in before 2023.  Otherwise the party will split up into factions and lose power and thus lose the chance

I think there’s a measure of that expectation at Westminster as well. Both major parties have reason enough to try to break the hegemony of the SNP, factional infighting over the timing of an independence referendum would be the way I’d go if I were leader of either Labour or the Tories

@tjagain I’ve been telling the haters that for years, if you want rid of the nationalists, vote yes. Totally pickles their heids 🤣

@ygh my sentiments exactly.

I have never voted SNP.  I dislike the over controlling over centralising aspect and my local SNP MP is a lying fud who is clearly only in it for money.  My SNP MSP is a good guy to but its now a safe seat for him.  Always green on list vote

intheborders

Care to provide evidence?

for example

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46457341

Nobeerinthefridge
Free Member
number of penalties they get is reduced!

I take it you’ve not seen yer goal from last night then? 😉🤣

Lovely strike by Furuhashi!

multi

There is a huge disconnect between the results of surveys like that and what actually happens on the ground.  I do not know the reasons for that.  I suspect poor methodolgy

There is a huge disconnect between the results of surveys like that and what actually happens on the ground.

Yes, if you look at actual numbers England is far more welcoming to immigration than any other home nation.

Then why are voting patterns so different?  Why does anti immigrant rhetoric get so little traction up here?

could be multiple reasons from shy racists not appearing in the polling data down south to people finding economic and social attitudes from parties much more important than immigration policies to the social atmosphere here making it harder for racists to express their views publicly to simple poor methodology

Then why are voting patterns so different? Why does anti immigrant rhetoric get so little traction up here?

Probably for the simple reason that there are far, far fewer immigrants, particularly ones with the “wrong” skin colour.

I suspect that if parts of Scotland had the same immigration levels that you see in parts of England, then those same nasty, xenophobic attitudes would, sadly, rise to the surface here.

Take for example the experience of Irish immigrants to parts of the west coast back in the 19th century. The attitudes of some Scots to those incomers was no better than the attitudes of some English people toady.

Thankfully in both cases it’s a small, but vocal, minority of both Scots and English, but I very much disagree with this notion that Scots are somehow morally superior to our cousins down south.

@molgrips

I’m actually pretty convinced that we are.

Oof.

You need to have a think about how media works and how you get your information.

Wow downright patronising! Out of interest do you think my knowledge of England or my knowledge of Scotland is wrong and which bits of which media do you think influenced me to arrive at such a wrong conclusion?

I agree with loys of that, we’re in no way morally superior at all.

However, there is a ‘we’re aw Jock Tamsons bairns’ mentality, we’ve definitely become more accepting in my lifetime, and we don’t really have as much of the ‘Britainnia rules the waves’ superior mentality that some do below Gretna.

All anecdotal of course!

It all comes down to opinions, so is it roasted cheese, or toasted cheese, is it square sausage, or lorne sausage and so on

this notion that Scots are somehow morally superior to our cousins down south.

Oh I would agree – but then I don’t see anyone saying that

What I am saying is voting patterns are very different with right wing anti immigrant parties getting no traction – to the point Scots Tories have tried to disassociate themselves from the English tories.  We have a openly pro immigration party getting a huge % of the vote and anti immigrant rhetoric gains no traction here as can b seen from the total failure of UKIP to ever gain any significant support

There is no value judgement in this – just a set of observations

It could just be being contrary for example – “whatever those bastards down south do we do the opposite” which would hardly be morally superior

and we don’t really have as much of the ‘Britainnia rules the waves’ superior mentality that some do below Gretna.

That may be a key aspect.  I remember during the independence campaign where the unionists tried all sorts of tactics.  they floated the idea ” iScotland would have no more influence on world affairs than finland” which was met with a collective shrug and ” that sounds about right” “who cares”  Hankering after the days of empire seems to just not exist here. ( which given the pivotal role scots played in the empire is odd)

and we don’t really have as much of the ‘Britainnia rules the waves’ superior mentality that some do below Gretna.

While I think that attitude is pretty vocal amongst the usual suspect of the popular RW press (Sun, Mail, Telegraph) I don’t think it’s a opinion widely held in the general population. I think most English and Welsh would react to a successful Indy vote with sadness TBH

I suspect that if parts of Scotland had the same immigration levels that you see in parts of England, then those same nasty, xenophobic attitudes would, sadly, rise to the surface here.

Those “xenophobic attitudes” down here are more prevalent where there are fewer immigrants.

I’ve generally found more racist attitudes in areas where there are less non-white folk (i.e. rural Fife where I’m from and go back to a lot) as opposed to more cosmopolitan areas (Southside of Edinburgh where I lived for ages). I guess it’s easier to see them as “lesser” or “other” if you never meet them. But if you end up having a nice chat or working with foreign people then you see them as equals?

Aye, which is why I did say some.

However, there is a ‘we’re aw Jock Tamsons bairns’ mentality, we’ve definitely become more accepting in my lifetime, and we don’t really have as much of the ‘Britainnia rules the waves’ superior mentality that some do below Gretna.

Aye and A Man’s a Man for a that!

We do absolutely have our fair share of knuckle draggers though, just witness all the disgusting behaviour around football and “marches”

I think there is a different mentality, not better but different. Scotland will always be a small nation and as such we have generally looked outward rather than inward. The clearest demonstration to that was the different attitude to Europe.

Another step change in the debate around nationalism and independence was the very clear articulation that its not about the “Scottish People” as some sort of ethnically distinct group separate from the rest of the UK, if that was ever even valid, to being about “The People of Scotland” which was anyone who lived here regardless of their background.

As Kelvin says – the Edinburgh is very much an immigrant town ( mainly white)   its very rare to hear any racism or anti immigrant feeling

the bit I live in is a very odd mix of gentrified, long standing immigrants, recent immigrants and a traditional working class scots.  I have never seen or heard any anti immigrant feeling

the very clear articulation that its not about the “Scottish People” as some sort of ethnically distinct group separate from the rest of the UK, if that was ever even valid, to being about “The People of Scotland” which was anyone who lived here regardless of their background.

Has that meant the anti immigrants have had to not make their feelings public but feel free to say so in private ie polling?  But that does not explain the clear difference in voting patterns

Probably for the simple reason that there are far, far fewer immigrants, particularly ones with the “wrong” skin colour.

I suspect that if parts of Scotland had the same immigration levels that you see in parts of England, then those same nasty, xenophobic attitudes would, sadly, rise to the surface here.

I think you are probably mostly right, (although I’m not sure your skin colour point is quite right – there are places in Scotland where Syrian refugees are welcomed but glasgow born white Catholics feel intimidated!). I think there is also a difference – there is no political party jumping on the immigration card here, in fact it’s used the otherway by politicians to complain about Westminster. Its also worth questioning the “far, far, fewer” claim :

Source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/datasets/populationoftheunitedkingdombycountryofbirthandnationality

___________born outside the UK (%)___from EU (%)
England____15.7______________________5.5
Wales______6.0_______________________2.6
NI_________7.6_______________________4.7
Scotland___9.7_______________________4.8
UK_________14.5______________________5.3
London_____36.9______________________11.0
Kent_______10.4______________________4.0


Fewer yes. Far far fewer? Maybe than london – but not compared to kent where people were trying to block a lifeboat from launching to save drowning immigrants!

Take for example the experience of Irish immigrants to parts of the west coast back in the 19th century. The attitudes of some Scots to those incomers was no better than the attitudes of some English people toady.

And the undertones of that remain today and politicians of all flavours do too little to sort it out.

Thankfully in both cases it’s a small, but vocal, minority of both Scots and English, but I very much disagree with this notion that Scots are somehow morally superior to our cousins down south.

I certainly wouldn’t be naive enough to suggest that Scotland was morally superior, and I did say a few pages ago we aren’t that different from any other western country (those issues are found even in places like Sweden which is often purported to be some sort of magical place where everyone gets on nicely and cooperates together). But there is a difference, in the same way that Portugal and Spain have differences or France and Belgium, Austria and Germany, Australia and New Zealand, America and Canada. Nobody would seriously suggest that any of them should just merge because they are “close enough”, and nobody is scoffing at the Norwegians and Swedes for deciding to separate their kingdoms just over 100 years ago despite to most of the rest of the world their cultures and politics being so similar.

I think there is also a difference – there is no political party jumping on the immigration card here,

Is this chicken or egg tho?

I think there’s a difference to being truly accepted or merely tolerated as an immigrant.
I got told to go back to Poland when I was Edinburgh.
The man may not have cared about my nationality so long as I didn’t inconvenience him but the moment I did, I’m the unwelcome immigrant.
Not that it should matter but I’m not Polish.
Also, as somebody who’s been known to fly off the handle I was completely calm in this situation as I had my little dog in the car and I didn’t want her getting upset.
I don’t remember any other incidents.

I think there’s all kind of subtleties that one might not pick up on when is comes to racist and anti-immigrant attitudes towards others too.
An extreme example would be Laurence Fox saying there’s no racism in the UK. Aye, he’d know.

I think there’s all kind of subtleties that one might not pick up on when is comes to racist and anti-immigrant attitudes towards others too.

I think that is correct but as I have a very english name and accent and have been actively fighting racism on and off since the 70s I believe I am pretty sensitive to it – especially anti english racism which has been alluded to in this discussion as a reason for no anti other immigrant racism.

why would scotland after voting solidly left wing for 60 years suddenly turn to the right post independence??

You’ve read Animal Farm?

I don’t doubt it, @tjagain.
And interesting point about your English name and accent.

I guess I just came across a very angry man in the Edinburgh car park who decided to blame immigrants for his problems that day.

molgrips
Full Member
why would scotland after voting solidly left wing for 60 years suddenly turn to the right post independence??

You’ve read Animal Farm?

You expecting an independent scotland to turn in to armed rebellion? 😆

You’ve read Animal Farm?

Yes – and understood it.  I totally fail to see where the parallels are.  We are not in a revolution against a feudal society situation nor do we have a Stalin or Trotsky figure waiting.  We live in a mature democracy

the pilot – of course there are racist numpties here – try going to south lanakshire and wear green!

Maybe I flatter myself but as a very obviously of English descent man who worked in a female dominated profession and was brought up0 by a radical feminist I do feel sensitive to discrimination.  I have seen discrimination in Scotland reduce dramatically since I first came here in the 70s

Indeed I got called out on the Starmer thread for calling out the playing of the race card by politicians and the increased racial tensions that causes.

So if I understand correctly, we somehow have elected the SNP for a fair number of years now but we’re not actually in favour of:
– independence
– social democratic policies
– immigration

Anything else?

Is this chicken or egg tho?

I think it’s actually a self-perpetuating thing requiring sufficient politicians, media, public to all feed off each other to propagate the idea. It works the other way too – #me2, and suddenly every politician and media outlet is sticking up for women rights.

we

One think that really pisses me off is people generalising about each other as if any particular random grouping are all of one homogenous mind. This is a key fallacy in nationalist debates.

Yes – and understood it. I totally fail to see where the parallels are.

Lol.

I said that in response to the suggestion that Scotland is going to remain left of centre forever after independence. The reference to Animal Farm is that at the end of the book the pigs end up becoming just like the humans.

If Scotland is left of centre now, why do you think that might be? What causes people to vote left? How many people actually know what left and right are these days?

I certainly do not remember anyone using either the outright racism of the tories or the nod and wink dogwhistle that labour do down south in scots politics.