Scotland Indyref 2

Its SNP policy that we rejoin the EU.

So it’s SNP policy to have the iS-rUK border rules set by the EU?

So it’s SNP policy to have the iS-rUK border rules set by the EU?

Yep that follows

But then it’s exactly the situation that Westminster agreed for NI

And I’m fairly sure that NI was told it simply meant the best of both worlds 😉

There’s no time frame on that though & far more pressing is what happens if the SNP get a majority in May, in that case there’s a constitutional showdown coming & EU membership is just noise in that regards

There’s no time frame on that though & far more pressing is what happens if the SNP get a majority in May, in that case there’s a constitutional showdown coming & EU membership is just noise in that regards

+1

So, what’s the best way to vote in May if you’re an independence supporter – both votes SNP, or does it depend which constituency etc?

So, what’s the best way to vote in May if you’re an independence supporter – both votes SNP, or does it depend which constituency etc?

constituency vote SNP, list vote green

The SNP are making a big push for list votes but its basically a wasted vote. they will gain so many constituency seats that list seats will be unlikely. The greens are pro independence and I want a green presence and a strong one in Holyrood. The SNP are very weak on environmental issues. the greens will gain seats on far smaller numbers of list votes than the SNP will because they are unlikely to get any constituency seats

I would also look at the candidates. For example my SNP MSP is a good guy, my SNP MP is a complete wally , a liar and useless and I could never vote for her. also beware the gender recognition fundamentalists. A very nasty bunch hanging on the coat tails of the SNP to promote a extreme view and who label anyone with doubts transphobes. They need their wings clipped

I have never voted SNP in the past but probably will lend them my vote this time because IMO the need for independence is so great.

Constituency vote SNP, list vote green

So, what’s the best way to vote in May if you’re an independence supporter – both votes SNP, or does it depend which constituency etc?

Constituency matters. There are very few in which the SNP stand any chance of gaining another seat. I expect that the new Indy parties will come to some sort of alliance not to contend against each other in regional seats, so you’ll be faced with a choice of ISP or AFI.

Are these new indy supporting parties actually going to happen scotroutes? Seems a bit like gaming the systemand could lead to reduced green representation and even reduced pro indy support which I am not in favour of. Splitting the vote?

ISP and AFI are both registered political parties.

The Wings Over Scotland guy got the message and isn’t standing

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19077762.pro-independence-holyrood-party-plan-scrapped-wings-scotland-blogger/

But he doesn’t seem to be the SNP’s biggest fan

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-fall-of-saigon/

I think Boris will not give a section 30 or awill delay giving it for several months. The key might be to get a majority of the popular vote for independence supporting parties. However I doubt even that will move Boris sufficiently. I’ll be voting both votes SNP in the Highlands but like Scotroutes says there are many regions where the the SNP are very unlikely to pick up list seats. I wish that both AFI and ISP had moved faster and gotten a higher profile. I say this as an SNP activist who is in the party for independence and that alone. Otherwise I’d be voting for the Greens

big_n_daft
Free Member
The Wings Over Scotland guy got the message and isn’t standing

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19077762.pro-independence-holyrood-party-plan-scrapped-wings-scotland-blogger/

But he doesn’t seem to be the SNP’s biggest fan

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-fall-of-saigon/

I think you’re the only guy left reading him tbh. 😆

Not from the comments, I think he’s worked out that he’ll make more as a blogger than a candidate who lives in Bath.

I think the storm that no-one has forecast is Westminster which established the Scottish devolution model stepping in to sort out some of the structural issues. The fiasco that is unrolling shows that the checks and balances aren’t working and something needs to change. I’m sure that the SNP will chuck petrol on the grievance bonfire to retain their relatively unchecked power as the party of government at Holyrood.

think the storm that no-one has forecast is Westminster which established the Scottish devolution model stepping in to sort out some of the structural issues.

They do not have the power to do so. Jeepers.

big_n_daft
Free Member
Not from the comments, I think he’s worked out that he’ll make more as a blogger than a candidate who lives in Bath.

I think the storm that no-one has forecast is Westminster which established the Scottish devolution model stepping in to sort out some of the structural issues. The fiasco that is unrolling shows that the checks and balances aren’t working and something needs to change. I’m sure that the SNP will chuck petrol on the grievance bonfire to retain their relatively unchecked power as the party of government at Holyrood.

Or sturgers will skelp them all about the shop next week! 😆 Wonder if she’ll get 5 hours of uninterrupted live coverage in bbc news tae!

The tory media think they are on to a winner eh? 😆

I think the storm that no-one has forecast is Westminster which established the Scottish devolution model stepping in to sort out some of the structural issues.

Haha

You really think Johnson would be that stupid?

That would be the biggest win Sturgeon could imagine: Westminster muscling in to dictate to holyrood how to run itself
Especially when Johnsons government has been ruled unlawful by supreme Court when he lied to queen, Jenrick & Patel broke ministerial code, Hancock just broke the law.
The hypocrisy would be ambrosia to the SNP

Sturgeon would love to see Westminster step in & gift her even more support!

Honestly there’s no way even Johnson is daft enough to try that

Meanwhile, in the real world the Internal Market Bill brings far more votes to the SNP than salmonds ego war costs them

list vote green

What if your Green candidate is a complete fruit loop? Much as I support them as a party many of their politicians are sadly lacking in either critical thinking or credibility.

That means day 1 iS is a third country in respect of the EU-UK trading agreement and rules of origin.

Is that fact or opinion?

They are better than they were squirrelking but somewhat anti nuclear 🙂

Westminster does simply not have the power to alter the devolution settlement unilaterally as far as I am aware.

They do not have the power to do so. Jeepers.

Holyrood was set up by Westminster, it can be reformed by Westminster. The current debacle with the Crown Office run by a Holyrood cabinet minister dictating what can and can’t be published (documents that are already public domain) in an attempt to restrict the scope of 2 inquiries into the executive. At the same time threatening legal action if someone discusses in Holyrood the redacted elements that are public domain.

Any Westminster driven change would be about reinforcing the independent structures. If people think that it’s all anti SNP they need to look in the mirror as that says more about them than anything.

Holyrood could come forward itself with the proposals but it won’t as the executive will always seek to justify its hold on the levers of power.

It won’t change the number of seats in Hollyrood, it won’t change boundaries, it won’t change devolved powers

“Is that fact or opinion?”

It’s the default position

In regard to the status the EU affords iS on day one, it’s not in the EU (yet or maybe never), it’s not a party to the rUK-EU agreement, it therefore has the status in that agreement of “third country” in regard to rules of origin. I would argue that is the default position. If iS can negotiate something different with both EU and rUK then all well and good but that is subject to negotiation with the EU. As we all remember with Brexit the promises of those campaigning are not always delivered.

Unless iS pulls off a massive deal ahead of day 1 combining it’s UK and EU relationships it drops into the default position in regard to the rUK-EU deal. There still can be a deal iS-rUK but it won’t change this issue for rUK EU trade

Or do you think it’s different? Unicorns perhaps?

Westminster does simply not have the power to alter the devolution settlement unilaterally as far as I am aware.

The deputy speaker of the House of Commons (a Scot) thinks that Westminster can reach in and do something. Holyrood is the creation of the Westminster parliament.

If people think that it’s all anti SNP they need to look in the mirror as that says more about them than anything.

You’re missing the point entirely

It’s not anti snp, it’s Westminster reversing devolution (see also IMB) That is exactly what any indy campaigners would sell it as & they would like Westminster to do so, as it galvanises their support.

But even Johnson has realised (or been told what to think by more capable advisors) that approach is counterproductive

He / she is a dimwit then

Really dude – if you want to comment on stuff have some basic understanding.

The Scotland act that sets up the scottish parliament makes it absolutely clear that the consent of both Westminster and holyrood is needed to alter it

Edit – so you claim this is so – how about something to back it up? I assume yo are talking about the politicing / trouble making from Liam Fox.

So – lets see you evidence that the deputy speaker of Westminster said they can intervene and the parts of the act that allow this

Put up or shut up

It’s not anti snp, it’s Westminster reversing devolution (see also IMB) That is exactly what any indy campaigners would sell it as & they would like Westminster to do so, as it galvanises their support.

Not really if it’s about sorting out the check and balances on the executive but thank you for proving my point. Separation of the prosecutor from the executive is a fundamental part of the E&W system.

So – lets see you evidence that the deputy speaker of Westminster said they can intervene and the parts of the act that allow this

The relevant quote is in Hansard, CBA to search, I didn’t say she was right but she is probably a better authority than me although probably trumped by your Googlefu.

I would suggest a pragmatic reform to sort out the checks and balances issue could be initiated by Westminster and discussed by a Holyrood committee and a jointly agreed change made. It’s not about Westminster reaching in to oversee it’s about fixing a problem that has arisen, only the myopic would argue there isn’t a issue that need attention.

Or as already exhibited it will be jumped upon by the false grievance bandwagon and riden for all it’s worth.

Put up or shut up

Trying to stifle debate?

Again.

Especially when Johnsons government has been ruled unlawful by supreme Court when he lied to queen, Jenrick & Patel broke ministerial code, Hancock just broke the law.
The hypocrisy would be ambrosia to the SNP

You have just shown that the UK executive checks and balances work. The Supreme Court were able to reverse an action. Thanks for giving a good example.

The word hypocrisy implies the SNP doing the same you accuse the UK government of. Do you actually want to use that word?

You have just shown that the UK executive checks and balances work. The Supreme Court were able to reverse an action. Thanks for giving a good example.

Eh? And despite clear breaches of the ministerial code no MP, johnson, Jenrick, Patel, Hancock… had to resign…..

Infact its perfectly fine for ministers to break the law https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/26/justice-secretary-defends-matt-hancock-over-breach-of-law

The word hypocrisy implies the SNP doing the same you accuse the UK government of. Do you actually want to use that word?

And again you are missing the realpolitik of this

Westminster stepping in to reform holyrood will be the perfect way for Sturgeon to deflect attention, that would become the story & a further rallying call for indy

Which is why even Johnson isn’t daft enough to do it

Big and daft – you made a claim its up to you to give something to back it up

Westminster does not have the power to do anything to holyrood. Its enshrined in the act.

only the myopic would argue there isn’t a issue that need attention.

What is this issue?

I would suggest a pragmatic reform to sort out the checks and balances issue could be initiated by Westminster and discussed by a Holyrood committee and a jointly agreed change made.

Yes that is how it works but you missed it would also have to pass a vote in both houses. Westminster cannot unilaterally alter the scotland act.

On another scottish topic and it might as well go here:

Sarwar becomes Scottish labour leader. No chance of any significant gains for labour in Scotland then as he is a big proponent of “the SNP are the enemy” and the “bain principle” while happy to cosy up to the tories.

Lennon would have been so much better but electing Sarwar means further retreat into irrelevance. Sarwar is mainly interested in a power base in Scottish labour not spreading the word wider. I am disappointed but not surprised

So far as I can see Westminster can close down Holyrood if it chooses to. It would need an act of Parliament to do so rather than just a change of UK government policy. Consent from Holyrood would be nice but it’s not required. Westminster or this current govt is already ripping holes in the Scotland Act by retaining powers that were legally devolved although in practice operated by the EU. Holyrood did not consent to Westminster reclaiming those powers but this made no difference at all.

Seem to be a lot of people banking on Boris to do the right thing and use some intelligence.

Oh dear Oh dear Oh dear…….

Yes that is how it works but you missed it would also have to pass a vote in both houses. Westminster cannot unilaterally alter the scotland act.

Neither can Holyrood

What is this issue?

Starter for 10
Crown Office led by a Holyrood executive cabinet member restricting the Scottish Parliament from publishing information that is already legally in the public domain.

Unless iS pulls off a massive deal ahead of day 1 combining it’s UK and EU relationships it drops into the default position in regard to the rUK-EU deal.

Ah, so there is a way we drop out of the UK and straight into the EU – thanks for clearing that up.

Ah, so there is a way we drop out of the UK and straight into the EU – thanks for clearing that up.

Not what I said, I was talking about turning the UK-EU agreement into a iS-EU-rUK agreement.

The day 1 entry of iS into the EU would be best described as a Unicorn, should iS be able to pull off this feat then iS would not need a iS-rUK trading agreement as Brussels has a current arrangement and border checks and customs paperwork are already settled.

Unlikely as the EU will want to understand iS position and that won’t be known until sometime after independance based on the negotiating practices of Westminster during Brexit.

Crown Office led by a Holyrood executive cabinet member restricting the Scottish Parliament from publishing information that is already legally in the public domain.

Crown office decisions are politically independent.

That info is NOT in the public domain. Its subject to a court order from a judge that it NOT be published as the complainants could be identified from it. So what the Crown office did was enforce the trial judges decision. correct in law. Now another judge could order the publication but the crown office did the right thing

Neither can Holyrood

Correct. Who sid they could? do you now accept that Westminster does not have the power?

ps – I have read the reports on the exchange with the deputy speaker and Liam fox and the deputy speaker does not say what you claimed

Once again – base your argument on fact not on what you want and do not give your opinions as fact.

big_n_daft
I think the storm that no-one has forecast is Westminster which established the Scottish devolution model stepping in to sort out some of the structural issues.

Oh, yes please.

That is just the right sort of crisis to trigger the Scottish govt using the Claim of Right to announce independence.

Dissolve the devolved govt and reopen the Scottish Parliament.

Be a bit messy, but that didn’t stop the Iron Curtain countries.