Scotland Indyref 2

Edit, nah

In fairness. In print media there is no requirement to be balanced.

Inherent bias is a jungle we all need to be aware of.

Agreed, but trying to defend the spectators standpoint on well; everything concerning independence because it employs Scots is, in my opinion anyway a bit, tadgerish.

Aye BnD’s proposition that because scots are involved in the union it somehow negates any reason for independence, is somewhat tenuous. 😆

Can you let him know he isn’t a Scot. Ideally video the encounter, it should go viral

So you’ll agree that Shamima Begum is defiantly British then?

Agreed, but trying to defend the spectators standpoint on well; everything concerning independence because it employs Scots is, in my opinion anyway a bit, tadgerish.

I didn’t defend the standpoint of The Spectator.

I challenged the Indy supporter’s reference to it as “foreign media”. It patently isn’t, it’s a UK publication with Scots journalists living Scotland writing about Scotland with a chairman who is a Scot (although some Indy supporters seem to imply they want to disown/excommunicate/whatever him)

But remember, there are no parallels to Brexit and the false grievances created there.

Aye BnD’s proposition that because scots are involved in the union it somehow negates any reason for independence, is somewhat tenuous.

My argument that the Scots have been active participants in a United Kingdom and have led the country. Claiming Scotland has no representation is patent Brexit level grievance manufacturing

So you’ll agree that Shamima Begum is defiantly British then?

Almost certainly yes, you could say that she indefatigably is. I can’t see why she isn’t the UK Government case looks pretty tenuous. What’s your point?

big_n_daft
Free Member
My argument that the Scots have been active participants in a United Kingdom and have led the country. Claiming Scotland has no representation is patent Brexit level grievance manufacturing

Fair enough, agreed scots have been represented and are represented fairly in the wider democratic group, but given you say this is an indy supporters claim, would you accept that not all indy supporter believe we have been colonised? 😆

My argument wouldn’t be that scotland has no representation, that is patent nonsense. It would just simply be that it’s voice is somewhat lost within the wider democratic grouping. Individuals in positions of power is irrelevant to that. (democracy is about the collective voice, not an individuals.)

That isn’t undemocratic, but it is cause for consideration if something else may work better. (this is where your parallels with brexit breakdown btw, cause the Uk had a massive say in europe, scotland not so much in the UK.)

(Which is another reason why I think scotland should have a longer think about jumping straight into bed with the EU, given that rUK is no longer there, the EU has structurally changed there, for the better or worse, who knows, but you are jumping into another union on an unequal basis. I say that as someone utterly pro EU for the ref.)

That isn’t undemocratic, but it is cause for consideration if something else may work better. (this is where your parallels with brexit breakdown btw, cause the Uk had a massive say in europe, scotland not so much in the UK.)

Of course it can be considered, it was in indyref1. There will always be people calling for another vote because”one more heave” will get the magic 50%+1.

As for the comparison with the UK’S voice in Europe, it’s not comparable with the current UK parliamentary model. The UK model is a lot more direct than the way the various EU institutions work, that makes it far more accountable. The section 16 debacle is classic, a UK politician would have had to resign. Yet a non directly elected EU official closed an EU member states border without bothering to discuss with the state.

The UK model isn’t brilliant but it’s a working compromise that is evolving.

(Which is another reason why I think scotland should have a longer think about jumping straight into bed with the EU, given that rUK is no longer there, the EU has structurally changed there, for the better or worse, who knows, but you are jumping into another union on an unequal basis. I say that as someone utterly pro EU for the ref.)

Brexit and the EU UK trade agreement puts a border in-between iS and rUK whether you are in or out. The first thing iS would need to address is that with the EU, if the EU won’t essentially wrap iS into the EU-UK trade agreement from day 1 then you are a “third country” and caught by the rules of origin for rUK manufacturing. If you join the EU on day 1 there is a EU border with rUK. I don’t see the EU talking to you before day1 (too many other separatists would use it as a case study)
and if they do it’s to lock in advantage for the EU It’s a trap with the status quo on the iS/risk border not on the table.

how long do the polls have to sustain their current level before you’ll agree another ref is warranted?

big_n_daft
Free Member
Brexit and the EU UK trade agreement puts a border in-between iS and rUK whether you are in or out. The first thing iS would need to address is that with the EU, if the EU won’t essentially wrap iS into the EU-UK trade agreement from day 1 then you are a “third country” and caught by the rules of origin for rUK manufacturing. If you join the EU on day 1 there is a EU border with rUK. I don’t see the EU talking to you before day1 (too many other separatists would use it as a case study)
and if they do it’s to lock in advantage for the EU It’s a trap with the status quo on the iS/risk border not on the table

For me the trading agreement between rUK and iS would supercede that of the EU/iS. Think that’s my position at the moment. I’m open to wider discussion on the matter though.

The section 16 debacle is classic, a UK politician would have had to resign. Y

c’mon big n daft , that is hilarious !

with an 80 seat majority Johnsons cabinet are untouchable no matter how badly they screw up

not to mention his unelected advisors!

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/government-law-officers-reject-calls-to-quit-over-brexit-legislation/5105609.article

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/westminster-news/michael-gove-on-sky-news-internal-market-bill-6629150

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hancock-faces-calls-to-resign-over-coronavirus-ppe-shortages-kwg6l935p

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/priti-patel-bullying-inquiry-undermined-ministerial-code

https://news.sky.com/story/the-1bn-development-and-the-tory-donor-the-robert-jenrick-controversy-explained-12014447

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/covid-schools-gavin-williamson-resign-poll-b1783722.html

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19076660.carmichael-calls-george-eustice-resign-seafood-export-ban-claims/

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/boris-johnson-deeply-sorry-as-u-k-covid-toll-passes-100-000-100054085925

you could say that she indefatigably is

You are George Galloway & I claim my 5 barrels of oil.

For me the trading agreement between rUK and iS would supercede that of the EU/iS. Think that’s my position at the moment. I’m open to wider discussion on the matter though.

There is a successor state argument to essentially novate the UK-EU agreement and have three parties, however there will be a need for criteria to allow for divergence of iS etc etc not sure if either party could agree and there would need to be a parallel iS-rUK agreement to deal with straightforward cross border trade. Too many moving parts to to it all at once so I would suggest that it will be staged at best and the border change over time. Whichever way it is still lorry parks and customs documents.

with an 80 seat majority Johnsons cabinet are untouchable no matter how badly they screw up

Remind me, hasn’t Cummings departed the government?

I don’t disagree that Boris hasn’t been ruthless enough with his cabinet and that standards have dropped. Maybe the problem with politics now is that you get histrionics constantly over minor issues which then means the important stuff gets lost in the noise and 24hour news media cycle. People don’t understand how important an issue is because everything is pitched as a resignation matter.

how long do the polls have to sustain their current level before you’ll agree another ref is warranted?

At the current level come back in twenty years, they go higher then shorten it. But the polling itself needs to be looked at to ensure its accurate as a guide. However I also think there should be a UK referendum act that looks at how we conduct them. Participation, % required for change, frequency, etc. Brexit has taught us the dangers of “anti” referendum where the vote is to abandon the status quo for a herd of contradictory unicorns.

Remind me, hasn’t Cummings departed the government?

I don’t disagree that Boris hasn’t been ruthless enough with his cabinet and that standards have dropped. Maybe the problem with politics now is that you get histrionics constantly over minor issues which then means the important stuff gets lost in the noise and 24hour news media cycle. People don’t understand how important an issue is because everything is pitched as a resignation matter.

Cummings resigned 6 months later after Johnson had blown up the entire governments credibility pushing his cabinet members out to defend him day after day, eroding trust & compliance, and only then beacuse Alegra Straton forced him out

and theres plenty of equivalence between VDLs vaccine failures & the PPE, care homes, Test & trace, school opening/closing, 100,000+ death toll thanks to delaying & dithering over lockdown…..

you’re bending over backwards to justify yourself in just the way you’re accusing the Yes campainers of doing (as they sometimes do)

At the current level come back in twenty years,

chucking out arbitrary timescales makes no sense

if the SNP /indy parties come home with a majority in May then its very hard to say theres no mandate for a 2nd ref

if the SNP /indy parties come home with a majority in May then its very hard to say theres no mandate for a 2nd ref

This.

and theres plenty of equivalence between VDLs vaccine failures & the PPE, care homes, Test & trace, school opening/closing, 100,000+ death toll thanks to delaying & dithering over lockdown…..

You know these are all devolved matters leading to the terrible death toll. The nuances between the devolved administrations and English policy has not really seen any significant divergence in outcomes. The real issue is a UK wide one. No one is significantly outperforming others, if they were we would be hearing about it.

chucking out arbitrary timescales makes no sense

I’m taking 25years as a generation, if you want to define it differently for Scotland please fill your boots

no parliament can bind the next one

there was no legislation setting out the mythical generational rule of referendums, even if there was it could be overturned

and it came from the same people who brought you this

big_n_daft
Free Member
and theres plenty of equivalence between VDLs vaccine failures & the PPE, care homes, Test & trace, school opening/closing, 100,000+ death toll thanks to delaying & dithering over lockdown…..

You know these are all devolved matters leading to the terrible death toll. The nuances between the devolved administrations and English policy has not really seen any significant divergence in outcomes. The real issue is a UK wide one. No one is significantly outperforming others, if they were we would be hearing about it.

tbh a total deaths are about 30% less per 1M than the the UK number and cases about 40% less, that is a significant difference. Particularly when Scotland has an older and more vulnerable population.

Still not good mind you, but those extra powers have made a significant difference.

big_n_daft
Free Member
chucking out arbitrary timescales makes no sense

I’m taking 25years as a generation, if you want to define it differently for Scotland please fill your boots

tbh, if you are looking for precedents, you should at least base it on something a bit more solid than an off hand comment made in the emotion of the moment. 79, 97, 14 would put it somewhere around. 31/32ish. 😆 ie 17/18 years. saying 25 years from now is ridiculous.

Which I think is mental from your side tbh, cause time ain’t going to help you.

no parliament can bind the next one

there was no legislation setting out the generational rule of referendums, even if there was it could be overturned

And?

Post Brexit the appetite for referendums is significantly diminished.

Plenty of countries place high hurdles for significant constitutional change. “Settled will” for a significant permanent change needs to be more than 50%+1. That would have killed Brexit.

big_n_daft
Free Member

Post Brexit the appetite for referendums is significantly diminished.

not in scotland if you look at the polls.

Plenty of countries place high hurdles for significant constitutional change. “Settled will” for a significant permanent change needs to be more than 50%+1. That would have killed Brexit.

tbh, I don’t necessarily disagree with this, but the cat is out the bag on the 50+1 and it’s no going back in.

you should at least base it on something a bit more solid than an off hand comment made in the emotion of the moment. 79, 97, 14 would put it somewhere around. 31/32ish. 😆 ie 17/18 years. saying 25 years from now is ridiculous.

Good job I’m some random person on the internet not in any position of power. I’d argue it was a bit more solid than “transitional pound” into “virtually instant” EU membership though and is a happy mid point between the two previous referendum periods

Lets put it to the test then and find out which side has the more solid arguments this time round? 😆 What ye scared of?

The key will be pro indy parties getting a majority in May

Which is hy no means a sure thing

And I dunt necessarily disagree about some sort of supermajority being required, but again there is no legislation for that and if the Tories tried to impose one after brexit the resentment at their hypocrisy could backfire hugely.

Tories may well get a feelgood bounce from vaccine rollout & SNP will want their dirty laundry out & forgotten by then too.

Effects of brexit on fishing communities could nail it though- totemic as it is (see brexit)

tbh a total deaths are about 30% less per 1M than the the UK number and cases about 40% less, that is a significant difference. Particularly when Scotland has an older and more vulnerable population.

I’d wait for the analysis to be done, England has significant BAME communities that live in multigenerational households with very low incomes. Scotland has a very dispersed population outside the central belt. Cases are very low in the SW of England for example and terrible in many of our cities. But if Scotland did it better we need to learn the lessons once we can dig into the data properly rather than focusing on headline numbers without context

My view is that the differences in approach by the devolved administrations is a good thing. We are all learning, therefore trying different things, the important thing is to take the politics out of it and to learn from each other.

Lets put it to the test then and find out which side has the more solid arguments this time round? 😆 What ye scared of?

You aren’t getting Brexit flashbacks writing that????

Are you related to David Cameron?

But if Scotland did it better we need to learn the lessons once we can dig into the data properly rather than focusing on headline numbers without context

The covid bounce? Sturgeon has seen is less about what she’s done, but how she’s gone about it, the endless lies about testing, PPE, Cummings etc from Westminster, coupled with Johnson’s dithering on lockdowns, school u-turns etc all eroded public confidence and compliance in a way that Sturgeon avoided (mostly)

big_n_daft
Free Member
tbh a total deaths are about 30% less per 1M than the the UK number and cases about 40% less, that is a significant difference. Particularly when Scotland has an older and more vulnerable population.

I’d wait for the analysis to be done, England has significant BAME communities that live in multigenerational households with very low incomes. Scotland has a very dispersed population outside the central belt. Cases are very low in the SW of England for example and terrible in many of our cities. But if Scotland did it better we need to learn the lessons once we can dig into the data properly rather than focusing on headline numbers without context

My view is that the differences in approach by the devolved administrations is a good thing. We are all learning, therefore trying different things, the important thing is to take the politics out of it and to learn from each other.

England has probably got a bigger rural population than scotland tbh percentage wise. Most of us live in or very near cities and towns of the central belt and up the east, up here.

Although everyone is allowed an opinion. Theres a lot of , at best, tenuous shite today.

England has probably got a bigger rural population than Scotland tbh percentage wise. Most of us live in or very near cities and towns of the central belt and up the east, up here.

True – but the density of population, plus multigenerational families (especially in BAME communities) for inner cities in England is higher and the sheer number of people is an order higher. Neither the UK Government or the Scottish Government have anything to be proud of in the way that they have managed the pandemic. But trying to say one has handled it better than the other is almost impossible unless you you do a detailed analysis. This hasn’t been done yet and probably take a few years to do.

It is important that it is done, so we can work out if the approach from the Scottish Government was ‘better’ or just different.

So you’ll agree that Shamima Begum is defiantly British then?

Yup, and groomed at age 15. You’ll accept this yeah ?, or do you believe in your heart of hearts that young teenagers groomed by older men are fully to blame for whatever happens to them 😕

You also have to remember in the analysis of the Scottish governments performance that they wanted to do more earlier but did not have the power to do so. No ability to borrow means they could not furlough except when westminster said, neither could they close the borders to Scotland as that is also a westminster power.

So considering they were hamstrung by that and the lower – but still awful deth rate I would given them a B compared to Westminsters D

When Johnson was running round catching covid by shaking peoples hands who were positive Sturgeon had already wanted to go into lockdown but could not.

Another aspect of how Scotland has handled it VS Westminster has been communication

And Sturgeon has been able to sound far more reassuring & on top of things than Johnson & co throughout

The good will Johnson blew up with cummings being a prime example