Rugby – 6 nations.

Well, I think we’ve established the mental age of your argument if you think that. Dwarf tossing on the other hand, now that is funny!

Ahem. If you think you’re tossing me anywhere without buying me dinner first you’ve got another thing coming… 😆

http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/Jailed-Rugby-player-broke-Bath-teacher-s-jaw/story-15401346-detail/story.html

I really don’t like the precedent this sets. Surely if you’re going to prosecute and convict for causing actual harm then every time a player throws a punch, whether it connects properly or not, he should be charged with assault? What about high tackles, taking the player out in the air, and spear tackles?

It isn’t the first time a rugby player has been jailed for breaking someones jaw on the pitch.

Well ok, but I still fail to see why breaking a jaw results in a charge of GBH and 6 months in jail while the assault on Ashton by Tuilagi didn’t result in any criminal charges. Especially seeing as the jaw breaking occurred on the pitch that wasn’t seen as mitigating circumstances as far as I can tell.

Saying that, I think that eye gouging should result in criminal charges whether it results in serious injury or not. Don’t know, maybe that’s hypocritical on my part.

Go look at the Gavin Quinnel story 🙁

I remember that. That’s part of the reason I think it should be treated differently. That and the fact that it’s just plain scumbaggery.

Because a broken jaw from an assault isn’t the same as a bit of handbags at dawn.

I know of a case in minor league rugby in Plymouth where a top flight kickboxer assaulted an oppostion player with some kickboxing punches leading to a broken jaw, the kickboxer got 6 months. There was an off duty copper walking past the game who saw it happen. The result of the assault determines the legal action.

I wouldn’t have described the Tuilagi Ashton fracas as handbags. Three unanswered punches, any one of which could have resulted in a broken jaw/eyesocket/cheekbone. This kind of thing happens week in week out at all levels.

Why is it only when the “lucky” punches are landed does it result in a prosecution that is treated as seriously as if it had happened in the street?

IMO if you prosecute one you have to prosecute all.

I would be more than happy to prosecute all punching in rugby – its not acceptable and it would soon remove it from the game

Its a case of law isn’t it, if the assult results in a serious injury then it’s a serious assult, if there isn’t a serious injury then there isn’t a serious assult.

Think of it like murder, if I stab you and you live, I get done for attempted murder, if you die, its murder. The result of the action determines the prosecution and sentence.

Perhaps Tuilagi pulled his punches, it may have looked vicious but the result says it wasn’t. More importantly Ashton didn’t want to make anything of it and now they are friends.

Teej, I don’t like the punching but it’s a fact of the game that things get heated, it normally sorts itself out.

Personally, I believe England will beat France this weekend. We’ll nullify thier backs in defense and play through thier indecisive 10/12 channel or over the top of thier back line.

17-9 England.

Back to the 6N

France team announced:

C Poitrenaud (Toulouse), V Clerc (Toulouse), A Rougerie (Clermont Auvergne), W Fofana (Clermont Auvergne), J Malzieu (Clermont Auvergne); L Beauxis (Toulouse), J Dupuy (Stade Francais); JB Poux (Toulouse), D Szarzewski (Stade Francais), N Mas (Perpignan), P Pape (Stade Francais), Y Maestri (Toulouse), T Dusautoir (Toulouse), J Bonnaire (Clermont Auvergne), I Harinordoquy (Biarritz)

Replacements: W Servat (Toulouse), V Debaty (Clermont Auvergne), L Nallet (Racing Metro), L Picamoles (Toulouse), F Trinh-Duc (Montpellier), M Parra (Clermont Auvergne), M Mermoz (Perpignan)

You’re right, a punch that results in stitches above the eye probably isn’t GBH. However, it is more than enough for ABH.

Teej, I don’t like the punching but it’s a fact of the game that things get heated, it normally sorts itself out.

I don’t see how you can say GBH is deserved in one sentence and say assault is a fact of the game in another. Either nobody hits anybody or we carry on hitting each other but no one gets charged no matter the consequences.

Hi BruceWee,
I listened to this when it was on yesterday and it was quite interesting. Dealt with the court of arbitration in sport, and why and when they get involved in “field of play” matters. Not directly relevant, and doesn’t talk directly about rugby, but worthwhile if you’re interested in law and sport.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01cw5nd/Law_in_Action_Sport_and_the_Law/

My personal opinion on the above is that GBH always deserves prosecution, but if you extended that to assault (which is basically the “missed punches” cases) you would over complicate the issue particularlly in rugby. Technically, some tackles would be termed “assault” on the street – and I would hate for rugby to get caught in a mess like that.

While I’m on my Radio4 promotion 😉 , try this programme at 13:45 today too. When you get past the presenter, its actually a very good series. Ther’s been a lot of Rugby specials, talking about the development of the game in the Valley’s to the Formation of the GAA and the history of Croke Park. All sorts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01cw7kv

Edit: link to the whole series : http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01bf42n/episodes/player

Kryton – I will be suprised if France do not score tries and although I believe England are improving I don’t see them having the firepower to outscore France

going to the other end of the scale theres was an interview on bbc with shaun edewards recently, he was saying rugby is getting a bit soft and menitoned Vincent Clerc and ‘that warburton’ tackle. (he thought it was a yellow)

he said Vincent Clerc was playing up in another match where he was rolling round like an italian footballer just to get a penalty/card given to the opposing player.

anyway he was bassically saying he hopes rugby does not go the way football has.

I would be more than happy to prosecute all punching in rugby – its not acceptable and it would soon remove it from the game

Why not use a bit of common sense instead of going from one extreme to the other, as you generally do TJ?

To prosecute all punching is either some liberal dream or simple trolling and sounds to me like TJ was bullied when younger. 🙂

I didn’t say assault is a fact of the game, I said

it’s a fact of the game that things get heated

.

The problem with this

Either nobody hits anybody or we carry on hitting each other but no one gets charged no matter the consequences.

is that lots of legal actions in the game of rugby could be termed assault off the pitch. If I chased you across the moors and tackled you resulting in a broken ankle then thats probably an assault right? But if it happens in the game it’s just an unfortunate tackle. If we start prosecuting for each transgression the game will grind to a halt.

I totally get where you are coming from in your original post, but the mistake was saying this

Surely if you’re going to prosecute and convict for causing actual harm then every time a player throws a punch, whether it connects properly or not, he should be charged with assault?

Because the prosecution probably only arose because it resulted in a broken jaw. To me thats the line thats crossed, I think we just carry on as normal unless it results in a serious injury,then prosecute. Which is actually the way things have been for some time.

My point isn’t really that I want all punches thrown to result in assault charges, more the ridiculousness of only convicting when there is injury.

Rugby is a rough game. Every time you step on the pitch you accept that it could result in broken bones and other injuries. In extreme cases death or paralysis.

When I was playing I didn’t normally start scuffles but I also wasn’t going to back down from them, even if it was with a 6’6″ 16st second row. Being 5’6″ and 10st this doesn’t give me much chance if I go around pulling punches. So, I use my many years of karate training and hit as hard as I can. Big people don’t necessarily have stronger jaws than small people so it’s entirely possible something could get broken.

Since I was getting myself into these situations I accepted the fact that I could get seriously injured within the rules or outside the rules.

For me, if an injury occurs that you would expect in the normal course of a game, like a broken jaw, then it should stay on the field.

For me, if an injury occurs that you would expect in the normal course of a game, like a broken jaw, then it should stay on the field.

An off the ball punch is not in the normal course of the game.

It’s a man’s game, played by men. MTFU.

Well charge all off the ball punches or charge none.

Don’t punish people because they pick someone with a glass jaw to hit.

Don’t punish people because they pick someone with a glass jaw to hit.

This is a science and logic fail. Bone density/strength in healthy adult males is not particularly variable, glass jaw is a boxing term meaning easy to knock out. To break someones jaw requires a particular level of violence and skill, if you choose to use that skill (as you appear to have admitted

, I use my many years of karate training and hit as hard as I can.

) then you deserve to get prosecuted. In fact if you choose to take the risk of walloping someone thne you take the risk of it goign wrong and you might go to jail. But if it doesn’t result in serious injury then a prosecution is unlikely.

TandemJeremy – Member
Kryton – I will be suprised if France do not score tries and although I believe England are improving I don’t see them having the firepower to outscore France

Although they are displaying some mental frailty. I believe if we get into them early we’ll expose that and our defense is good enough to nullify their backs.

Get them guessing with some kicks through (as long as the chase is good, run at thier 10/12 channel and I think theres a chance.

Above all we have to play the game in thier half and keep thier confidence subdued.

Rugby is a rough game. Every time you step on the pitch you accept that it could result in broken bones and other injuries. In extreme cases death or paralysis.

Exactly!!

I my bones broken through both violent play and falling badly. Either way you are deliberately putting yourself in a position where you could be hurt simply by running out on a Saturday. I had my zygomatic arch broken by a punch and the most annoying thing was it was the end of the season and I missed all the free beer! The way I saw it was I had played to the limit for a long time and was due a decent slap. No hard feelings and all that

OK, glass jaw was the wrong term.

Doesn’t change the fact that you can never tell what effect striking another person is going to have. Over the years, both playing rugby and doing karate competitions, I’ve had and seen many different injuries caused by seemingly innocuous impacts. And seen the most horrific collisions and attacks result in no damage whatsoever.

The idea that you can know what damage you are going to cause, whether you pull your punches or not, is just plain wrong.

Rugby.
Good job Servat’s not starting.
IMHO the best hooker in the tournament by a mile, and makes kryton’s “get at them Early” a real possibility. He made a massive difference coming on against Ireland, their maul’s really started to roll and their scrum started to dominate (they were already on top in the LO.)
He will come on, and improve France. England need to be ahead by enough, but it is possble to really rattle them Especially in midfield.
Gotta hope Harinordoquy and Dusatoir don’t have the sort of games thy always seem to against England. They were massive in Auckland.

The idea that you can know what damage you are going to cause, whether you pull your punches or not, is just plain wrong.

I’m not saying you can know, I am saying that if you wallop someone you take the risk that it might end badly, if as you say no-one shoudl be prosecuted what happens if one punch ends up with a death?

That would be tragic. Unlikely though since single punches almost never result in death without some other factor coming into play like falling backwards and hitting your head on a kerb. Or if the punch was in addition to other head trauma that had already occurred. Otherwise boxers would be dropping dead on a regular basis.

If it did happen then it would just have to be one of those things that happens on the field of play. Or, if you were prosecuting all punches as assaults, then it would be dealt with by the courts.

Or if you draw the line at assaults that result in serious injury…

My point is that that is as much bad luck as anything else.

Besides that, in the context of a rugby game, is a broken jaw a serious injury?

It is in the case of an assault.

Punching someone in the face full stop is serious in the case of an assault.

What d you guys think about flood being released? so the 10s will be Farrell and Hodgeson with hodgeson on the bench I guess

I had to laugh at this:

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/7577066/O-Connor-blasts-England

Flood – a man that walked away from the responsibility of a last minute drop goal win 2 weeks ago in the premiership

Youngs – Has got slower, less penetrative and show dubious decision making recently.

And you’d want them in the team over Farrell and Dixon? Ok, I’d agree Dixon should stand with is foot on the ball and there was one box, straight out but everything else was quicker and more urgent than anyhting youngs had produced in the last 4 months.

I also wonder whether Ashton will keep his place, he’s borderline at best IMO, Stevens too.

My 2p with both my hats on;

REF; Throw a punch and connect with face/head is a red card. Body is minimum yellow. Kick is a straight red.

PLAYER; In my last ever game I had started playing for my old school side. They played at local district level and even at 39 my mate and I who had also played Prem 1 up here could direct most traffic from 10 and 8 respectively. We were playing a fairly horrible side which consisted of at least 12 poobags. Fingers in eyes,blindside hits in rucks and mauls etc,even throwing yourself to the ground to try and get somebody sent of. But all at the sort of never-ever-played the-game-properly standard that you get from these type of players. I am chasing a through ball when I realise the worst ofender is running at an angle to connect with me. He does,breaking a tooth with the elbow he swung into my face.My reaction was instant and I punched him, knocking him out for 5-10 mins.And at that point decide never to play again.
Couple of months later I start hearing stories that the police had turned up at the rugby club with a team pic from the web.11 months later I am interviewed by the police as he had made a complaint. Another month and I have an assault charge, leading to a telling off from a senior policeman but no record 18 months after it happened. By that time the worry (I am a teacher) had long since kicked in and I suffered from depression for nearly a year and generally made my own families life hell before I got help. So the traditional set-to can have fairly dramatic consequences IMO.

If you want to use a warped luck argument, then the punch thrower deserves at least as much of your “just bad luck” as the fella with the broken jaw.
I’m happy for him to serve time, that’s just his bad luck.

But enough please, Rugby thread not fighting thread.
That Leicester coaches word were purely confidence boosters for his dropped players. Thats his job. Shouldn’t read to much into it.

Not in the eyes of the law, it has to result in harm that has to

“be more than merely transient and trifling.”

The point is if you get walloped and there is no injury then its not the end of the world, but if there is an injury then its bad news and needs to be punished. OK the Ashton example maybe should have resulted in a prosecution, but I think Ashton didn’t want that so it would have been pointless to proceed.

Look I’m bored, you seem to think it’s black and white, I think it grey. If we bring black and white into the game it will grind to halt, and is incompatible with the law which is grey as it is. I think the line drawn at serious injury is a good one, given that if people are wilfully injuring others in or out of the game it should be dealt with, but if you have been assaulted in agame and not really hurt then just man up. It’s pretty reasonable really.

edit

If you want to use a warped luck argument, then the punch thrower deserves at least as much of your “just bad luck” as the fella with the broken jaw.
I’m happy for him to serve time, that’s just his bad luck.

This is actually a pretty good precis of the way it is..

Look I’m bored

Me too, let’s just agree to disagree and get back to rugby.

Edit: Sorry to here that, duckman. Sounds like a really horrible experience

Yup happy days.