Road wheels – will I notice a difference?

I am going to buy new wheels for my road bike (Cervelo R3), to upgrade the stock Fulcrum 5.5 wheels. I probably can’t be talked out of needlessly spending money, so the real question is – how much do I have to spend before I notice a difference?

My riding profile:
– 80 kg
– usually ride solo or in a pair, but intend to join a group
– no racing, just sportives and Strava 😉
– riding in Aberdeenshire – so hilly

I’m a sucker for well engineered components and cool materials – so what’s the recommendation? I’ve been looking at hand built wheels so far, but open to any suggestion. Probably won’t get Fulcrums again as the weld isn’t very smooth on mine.

I moved from Shimano 500 wheels (now winter wheels) to Cero AR 30’s (1395grams) and can actually feel the difference. Bike just feels livelier and ‘sharper’ if that makes sense.

The Racing 5 is a decent wheel so to upgrade to where you might notice a difference you’ll have to go up to something like Fulcrum Racing 1 or equivalent which will cost about £550.

I can recommend the Racing 1 by the way.

What tyres are you using? If something cheap and nasty try a really good tyre first like Continental GP4000. The difference between tyres can often be greater than between wheels and it’ll cost you a lot less.

Archetypes or Pacentis on Hope or Dura Ace, 28h/28h handbuilts.

Carbonzzzzzzzzzz!!!!

I’m upgrading the from the same wheelset also on an R3.

My 5.5 were touching 1900g on the scales, new set of handbuilts around 400g less.

Wider profile rim and also switching to tubeless so hoping for some decent differences.

e2a: By the way, Pacenti SL23 on Industry 9 hubs with CX-Ray all round 20/24

Current tyres are Michelin Pro4 service course. I had some featherlite tyres that came on it that didn’t last long (forget exactly what they were), and these new ones don’t feel any different to me, but are certainly lasting better.

Thanks for the recommendations – it seems to back up my thinking i.e. >£550 on some Pacenti SL23 and bling hubs. (I’m looking at White Industries T11, because there’s some titanium in them and they come in blue. I’m a tart.)

Light Bicycle, 400 quid ish depending on spec- go for <1400g 24mm’s or something a bit more aero if that’s your bag.

Stick some latex tubes in too.

I’m getting the i9’s in blue also, tyres were Vittoria Diamonte?

Thought about a Light Bicycle set up but wanted some all rounders, may take the plunge on a pair for occasional race wheels in the future…

Stick some latex tubes in too.

I dont think carbon and latex tubes are a good combo but i could be wrong.

Front wheels do not need as many spokes as the rear wheel so the recomendation of pacenti sl23 rims on da hubs is a good one but 24f/28r is better And just as reliable. In fact though the 18h da front hub is here and so is the 18h pancenti sl23 rim. I can assure you an 18f/24r pacenti sl23 wheelset with da9000 hubs is a very stiff sub 1500g wheelset that due to its stiffness has good spoke life. Should be fine for a 80kg rider but the higher spoke countnis a more conservative build. I do build both.

Lb wheels are fine but carbon and thing is carbon wheels should not be your only wheels. I reminded myself of that this morning when braking in the wet. It ok but bite of the brakes with pacenti rims is better in the wet. Even better on ambrosio nemesis rims.

A rim like the pacenti or h plus archtype is nicw and wide and tyres like the gp4000s really spread out and that larger air volume sort out the ride comfort and the side walls flex less improving the way the bike handles in the bends. Tubeless schwable one tyres are great and are easy to set up onnpacenti rims. I have a set on my own pacenti/Royce build (20f/24R) and they have been my winter training wheels and they have done very well indeed. The tyres are excellent.

Oh i have used latex tubes in carbon rims without issue until i had a couple of unexplanied tube failures which i have never got with latex tubes in my alloy rims. So not sure if was random tube failures unrelated to the rims or caused by the rims. Fortunatley i was barely moving.

You will always notice a difference when upgrading road wheels.

Racing 5’s are great value / performance wheels and tough to boot. But dropping a few 100gm if your budget allows, will be be noticeable.

I’ve been borrowing a set of radial laced Pacenti SL23s while my back wheel gets a new Hed Ardennes rim put on, and I’m not that keen. Yes, there’s a noticeable difference, but to me it’s not a good one; they are harsher on poor Tarmac, to the point that I planned today’s ride partly on the state of the roads.
Some of that is probably due to the lacing, and the rest to the fact that my Heds are silly light and therefore flexy, but the difference is obvious to me.
That said, both the above are a big improvement on the original stock wheel set…

I really rate my shimano RS80 wheels and would definitely add them (and the deeper section offerings) to any future wheel buying list.

I run two sets of wheels. The RS80 and a 32h Stan’s 400 on hope hubs. The Shimano wheels feel like a nicer/smoother ride despite having 23mm tyres on compared to 25mm. Both with GP4000s.

The RS80 are light, something like 1500g. You can shave a bit off using Ti skewers as well as they come with standard shimano ones. They’ve been very reliable having ridden on them for 3 years now including 2 seasons of road racing.

Personally I’m not likely to go for full carbon rims as I’m nervous of the braking and don’t see much advantage at my level. I don’t think you’ll see a massive advantage in new wheels but you might see some.

If I was to replace my wheels now I’d go with the RS81 (the latest model) in 24mm as I want something light to play to my hill climbing strengths. If I wasn’t racing I’d consider something 35-50mm deep as on your own it makes more of a difference and some of them aren’t silly heavy these days.

Of course the other aspect to consider is how they look. I’m on a focus cayo. It isn’t an aero frame so looks with skinny wheels. Some frames just suit a deep section rim and having a bike that looks nice is a good thing. Deep section carbon also makes a great noise, sounds like racing.

Front wheels do not need as many spokes as the rear wheel so the recomendation of pacenti sl23 rims on da hubs is a good one but 24f/28r is better

Precisely what I have just built up. Insanely happy with them.

So my ‘wheel haul’ includes the following with my thoughts on them. Between these, I’ve done about 12,000km so hopefully enough to have a valid opinion:

Dura Ace C35 clinchers £1000 if you shop around – relatively light at 1450g, but you can get as light or lighter for less money but they have a greater aero benefit than say a lightly built Panceti/Archetype/Velocity handbuilt. They do however have a problem with water ingress between the lacquer and carbon fairing which causes the lacquer to bubble and flake. I have strongly recommended these wheels before and performance wise I stand by that but I’ve now had two sets warrantied becaus of this problem.

Archetypes 32 spokes, CX Ray on CK R45 hubs (£800) – lovely wheels and when paired with an open tubular and latex tube, they roll sublimely, 90% of a good quality tubular set up without the associated complexity. They aren’t light though, c. 1750g. You can build this rim up very light though. H Plus Son say they will support a 90kg rider with 20/24 configuration though they probably won’t be too robust built that light at that rider weight. If you don’t go with crazy expensive hubs you’ll have a very light wheel at sub £500.

Ambrosio Nemesis tubular on 32 sapim lasers and Dura Ace 9000 hubs (£600). These are one of those wheel sets you just have because you want to have them. They are heavy at 1850g and have zero aero benefits plus they are tubs so you need to be happy with running those. But they do give a sublime ride. In all honesty, the most compelling reason to have a set, is, well, just because you like nice wheels. I love them but unless you really want them, they are kind of pointless. They are incredibly stiff though.

Wheelsmiths built Gigantex 60mm carbon tubulars on CX Ray spokes (20/24) config (£1050). Now these are the daddys. If you want a pair of wheels that will make you think ‘wow’, then a 50mm-60mm deep carbon section will do that. You will feel a huge difference in performance especially above 30kph. These wheels are not just fast, they are also really light at 1400g! To put this into perspective, that’s half a kilo lighter than the Ambrosio Nemesis build!

I rode my race bike bike yesterday around a realtively hilly course using the Nemesis. I also run a power meter so I can compare my efforts and see the difference that weight makes on a climb.

On the long climb out of Dorking up to Ranmore, which is 1.8km, my best effort was 6 minutes dead and 310 watts avg. Yesterday I was a little down on power at 300 watts but the time was 7 mins 58 second. Some of that difference will be the 10 watts, but not 2 minutes. The rest is that half a kilo of rotating weight.

Similarly, on Barhatch, my PB is 8mins 57 second for a 2.5km climb of 160m at 185 watts average. Yesterday, the exact same wattage but with the heavier wheels a time of 10 minutes 2seconds.

It’s interesting to see the effect of rotating weight on climbing and of aero properties on straight line speed.

To answer your question, any reduction in rotating weight will be felt on a road bike and most especially in the climbs but for the kind of performance that will really make you go wow, you want both light and aero.

A 50mm carbon rim with CX Ray spokes and a cheap but durable hub (hubs make no materially difference to performance, they are just nice things to have although they may help with the integrity of the build) can be had for under £700.

Recently swapped the stock giant wheels for latest aksiums (lighter than the older versions) along with better tyres and some race light tubes. Reckon I’ve dropped 400g overall and it does feel “snappier” and gives the usual placebo effect of extra performance (although strava hasn’t realy picked up on it) sure I’ve seen some 1600g wheels on merlin too btw…

Gee – so were your pbs on the c35s? Why did you chose those over the slightly lighter and cheaper c24s for a climbing set. Only ask as my mouse is hovering over a set of c24s for when I don’t want to lug cosmics up hills. I’m interested to see the difference to my climbing as I’m usually in the top 5-10% on local climbs with a relatively heavy aero set up.

I dont think carbon and latex tubes are a good combo but i could be wrong.

allegedly due to the higher temps CF rims can get to with extended braking causing latex to melt/blow compared to butyl. More a problem in the alps than the Cotswolds….

Gee – so were your pbs on the c35s?

No they are compared to the 60mm Gigantex but to answer the question I chose the C35s primarily because they were recommended to me by the guy at Condor from whom I bought my first Condor. I have been very impressed with the C35s but sadly have now just had to send my replacement pair back (like in the last week) for the same warranty issue I had first time. I don’t know if the C24s will have the same problem with the water ingress. They still have a carbon fairing so perhaps they will?

The 60mm Gigantex are the best of both worlds; lighter than the C35s (albeit only marginally) and as a good as it gets aero wise without going to something impractical for every day use (like an 80mm).

No it isn’t. When climbing weight is all the same, whether it’s rotating or not. If you’re 60kg on a 6kg bike, then 0.5kg is 0.75% of your total weight, which will make about 3s difference on a 6 minute climb (in other words it’s lost in the noise – equivalent to about 2W difference in power).

The effect of rotating weight is massively overstated. The only point is makes a difference is when accelerating, and you don’t do all that much accelerating when riding a bike. If you accelerate up to 20mph and all of your power goes into acceleration (it doesn’t – significant amounts into other things) then at 300W it takes 9.05s for the 66kg bike/rider combo allowing for 2kg of rotating weight. 0.5kg more rotating weight results in an acceleration time of 9.12s. That sort of difference is below the level of human perception – surprised nobody’s ever tried a double blind test with weighted rims, as it ought to be fairly easy to set up.

Only if you’re carrying your wallet with you when you ride.

I’m not sure on carbon rims. I have two problems:

1. Braking performance in the wet. Not that I have ever tried carbon rims, but I don’t want to spunk £700+ on some and spend my life worrying about stopping. I don’t race, so ultimate performance at all cost is probably not required. Plus there’s a fair few hills round here.

2. I don’t see a lot of carbon wheels around. I’d hate to turn up at a club run with all the gear and then duly get dropped.

But out of interest, is the braking problem a reality?

The only point is makes a difference is when accelerating,

I’ve read that and also understood this to be true as well. But the same article I read also explained the physics behind why you are effectively ‘accelerating’ for every turn of the pedals when you’re climbing. I don’t profess to understand the physics, but I understood this to be because when you’re climbing you’re fitting gravity and therefore each turn of the pedals is therefore an acceleration.

So I guess you’re right, but not on the point about climbing.

Weight is a huge issue when going uphill and the data I posted above clearly proves this.

Like for like power but a difference in weight equals a difference in time. Can’t really argue with that can you.

Plus you only have to look at the pro Tour riders to see that heavier riders don’t do well in the mountains and watts/kilo is king.

But out of interest, is the braking problem a reality?

Yes and no. I’ve not ridden my Carbons in full on rain, only when it’s been light rain and yes, it does take a second or so before the pads bite but if you adjust your braking accordingly it’s absolutely fine. I probably wouldn’t start a ride on them in the pouring rain though so wouldn’t opt for them if they were my only set of wheels.

Interesting thread as I’ve recently fitted new wheels/ tyres (hope 32f/32r on stans alpha 400 with Hutchinson fusion 3 tyres ran tubeless). My old wheels were stock shimano rs500 (with upgraded specialised 24mm s-works turbo tyres which I actually liked). I’ve noticed an enormous difference with general flattish riding but especially with climbing, I find the bike now soaks up the crappy road conditions so much better which seems to help maintain momentum and they match my mountain bike set (both have stans rims with blue hope hubs).
I was torn between the hopes and rs81’s but decided to go with a traditional build as I like the fact that I can source spares quite easily, I might still get the rs81’s as I’m contemplating trying out a few road races.

So, if all things are equally loosing 400g from my wheels isnt going to improve my climbing significantly?

I’m talking about climbs that are 6-8mins long 5-8% averaging low teens, like this one:
https://www.strava.com/segments/673598?filter=overall

I dragged cosmics up there yesterday, the whole way thinking I wanted a set of nice light clincers, like c24s/zeros.

Gee – surprised your pbs are on the 60m wheelset, but then again if it weighs in at 1400g that is pretty light.

Gee – surprised your pbs are on the 60m wheelset, but then again if it weighs in at 1400g that is pretty light.

They’re tubulars which is why they are light.

Wheels are the best place to spend money vs. difference noticed.

Start at tyres + tubes, something light yet puncture proof /appropriate for your riding, then get the lightest tubes you can stomach. Outside of the wheel makes the largest difference!

TBH upto about £500 doesn’t buy you a lot than £150 on some Mavic aksiums doesnt. Its only once you start getting into that £500-1000 bracket do things start to get interesting.

Mavics upper quality wheels have that ceramic serrated machined surface that uses special pads, the difference in braking is night and day vs. any other rim. For the often wet/gritty conditions of the northern UK/Scotland, I would value that over absolute weight/stiffness, the ability to stop is a useful one! Mavics upper quality pre-builts are also mostly very good, bearings & freehubs are amoungst the best and their warranty & service in the UK is cracking.

I’ve read that and also understood this to be true as well. But the same article I read also explained the physics behind why you are effectively ‘accelerating’ for every turn of the pedals when you’re climbing. I don’t profess to understand the physics, but I understood this to be because when you’re climbing you’re fitting gravity and therefore each turn of the pedals is therefore an acceleration.[/quote]

Yes, there is an acceleration every time you turn the pedals – whether you’re climbing or not – as power output isn’t constant through the pedal rotation and your speed varies slightly. However there is no advantage to increasing this acceleration with lighter wheels – you also decelerate more resulting in the same average speed, but a higher speed variation. This speed variation is actually a disadvantage, hence heavier wheels could actually be beneficial!

Unless of course you were suggesting that because you’re working against gravity which “is” an acceleration that you’re accelerating (even if moving at constant speed). This is wrong – there is no acceleration when climbing at constant speed (gravity is actually a force, not an acceleration), hence no advantage to decreased rotating weight.

Either way, there is still no advantage to decreasing rotating weight when climbing – if the article you read suggested there is, then it was wrong (there is an advantage to decreased weight, but losing 0.5kg from your wheels makes you climb no faster than losing 0.5kg from your frame – or your waist).

Weight is a huge issue when going uphill and the data I posted above clearly proves this.
Like for like power but a difference in weight equals a difference in time. Can’t really argue with that can you.
Plus you only have to look at the pro Tour riders to see that heavier riders don’t do well in the mountains and watts/kilo is king.

It is, but the data you posted doesn’t prove any such thing, as the variation you measured is far, far more than can be accounted for by the difference in weight (almost two orders of magnitude more). Something else caused that. A difference in weight does result in a difference in time, but then there is a difference of 10s of kg between pro tour riders, not the 0.5kg difference of your wheels.

Bicycles do comply with the laws of physics. As I posted above, on a 6 minute climb for a 66kg bike and rider combo, losing 0.5kg off the wheels saves you about 3s. That’s what the physics says.

A couple of posts have grab my attention. The comment about the ambrosio wheels giving a good ride is down tonthe tubular tyres. They give a better ride than clincher ever do. I have a set too and the ride is sublime but that is down to the 27mm paves run at 80 psi i think. Also if you run the physics 0.5kg saving on your carbon tubular wheels does not add 2 minutes to your climb time so it will also be the aero difference. Weight may a few seconds. The aero difference and stiffness diference will acount for the rest.

One poster commented on the ride quality of pacenti sl23 rims. I have to disagree. I have a set and j have run vittoria open corsa tyres and schwable one tubless tyres on them. The ride is almost as good as i get on tubs. Tyre choice make a big difference as does the pressure you run. Radial wheel stiffness does not impact ride quality. Your hed wheels are very stiff radilly they have to be or they would fall apart.

Wheel Weight only makes a difference if it part an overal diet of bike and rider otherwise 300g will not help in any meaningful way. Loose a few kg of rider and bike and it notiable on a hill. Lighter wheels do feel differnet but are not faster because they are light. More aerodynaic helps with speed mlre than lower weight. no point in chnaging frlmnthe fulcrum 5 wheels if all you go for is another narrow shallowish rim. At least make it wide at least youbget a ride comfort and handling benefit. Also stiffer wheels perform better (lateral stiffness that is) many factiry wheels can be a bit lacking there and that hurts spoke life too. Stiff wheels mean less spoke fatigue you see as the spokes have less change in length when loaded.

So what ever wheel you go for make sure is laterally stiff and wide rimmed. If you have those two things yoj will be happy regardless of how much they weigh. Or ride tubs it better in every way. I have a lovely set of 28 spoke hed c2 tubular rims laced to campagnolo record hubs. Stiff sort of light and a sublime ride. I am only quicker on my wide deep aero carbon wheelset and not buy much either Although vanity tells me i am.

Very intereting repo des and insights. Thanks for sharing especially Aracer. I stand happily corrected on my understanding of the physics. I did a little more research. Turns out I was about 3kg lighter when I set those PBs. That must be the explanation.

I have just fitted a set of superstar Volta Hubbed Pacentis for £199 and they are worth every penny
Using the same cassette but changing to Conti GP tyres and a superstar QR I dropped 650g off the weight of my Giant defy
Does it make a difference HELL YEA the speed pick up is alot quicker, it climbs better and it is alot more comfortable than with the original Giant wheels.
Its a much nicer bike
money well spent

Mavics upper quality pre-builts are also mostly very good, bearings & freehubs are amoungst the best and their warranty & service in the UK is cracking.

I’m sorry, but there’s some half truths on this thread, some tall tales, some utter tosh and then there’s this statement!

Mavic are a notorious nightmare to deal with. Most bike shops won’t touch them with a barge pole! They’re generally pretty stiff wheels, granted, but bearing and freehub life is poor compared to most IMO, and getting hold of spares? Forget it… Just buy new wheels and bin the Mavic’s!

I’ve read that and also understood this to be true as well. But the same article I read also explained the physics behind why you are effectively ‘accelerating’ for every turn of the pedals when you’re climbing. I don’t profess to understand the physics, but I understood this to be because when you’re climbing you’re fitting gravity and therefore each turn of the pedals is therefore an acceleration.

When you’re on the flat, the only force(s) acting against you trying to decelerate you are the friction in the tyres on the road, the wheel bearings, and any wind resistance. Until you’re going quite fast, these forces are very small.

When you’re climbing up a hill, Gravity is acting on you trying to slow you down constantly. The steeper the hill, the more gravity affects you. With this in mind, to try and maintain a constant speed, relatively speaking you are constantly accelerating as you climb a hill (or rather you are using enough force/power to accelerate at a significant rate if you were on the flat, so to speak).

High performance road wheels are a huge compromise. The honest answer, in a Keith Bontrager kind of way is “Cheap, light, aero, pick two…”

To the OP… If they were of any interest, I’m selling a pair of Campagnolo Eurus (Fulcrum Racing 1) wheels with only about 1200 miles on them, Shimano Freehub, immaculate condition. Usefully lighter than the 5’s you’ve got now, and immensely stiff. Also, being 2 way fit, they’re tubeless compatible, which I’ve found a godsend myself.

(gravity is actually a force, not an acceleration

Correct me if I’m wrong, it’s nearly 20 years since I did my GCSE’s, but Gravity is an acceleration and not a force.

Gravity on Earth (ignoring minor variations depending on how close you are to the equator or not) is generally understood to be 9.81 metres per second squared. That is to say, if anything is dropped from a great height, until terminal velocity is achieved or the ground comes into play, an object accelerates at 9.81ms-2 in free fall.

As we know that Force = Mass x Acceleration, we can thereby deduce that the force applied due to gravity is not a constant, but is dependent on the mass of an object.

To further this argument, look at the principles of a flywheel on an engine. A heavy flywheel is desirable for engines in situations like a generator, where a constant power output is required. On an engine that is constantly accelerated and decelerated, such as in an F1 car, flywheel mass is as low as it possibly can be without the engine stalling all the time, in order to use as little power whilst accelerating.

Wheel weight makes a fair difference on a road bike. In fact, the more lumpy your pedal stroke and the lower your cadence, the more you will benefit from lighter wheels in the hills. If you’re metronimically perfect with your pedal stroke, and you can turn a constant 100rpm no matter what, you won’t notice a lighter wheel as much as someone who thinks 80rpm is a high cadence, and gets out of the saddle at the first sign of a hill.

With that in mind, the less consistent the rider, the more the will benefit from a lighter wheel… So yes, you CAN buy performance guys and girls! But like everything, the better you are, the smaller the marginal gains elsewhere. And yes, Nairo Quintana would still kick your arse up a hill on a set of 2kg+ training wheels with you on a set of Lightweight’s, or Reynolds RZR’s.

When you’re climbing up a hill, Gravity is acting on you trying to slow you down constantly. The steeper the hill, the more gravity affects you. With this in mind, to try and maintain a constant speed, relatively speaking you are constantly accelerating as you climb a hill

Going by that logic; you’d be constantly accelerating on the flats to overcome drag/friction.

Are you sure you’e thought this through properly? 😉

being able to do hard sums is a great way to earn enough money to spend lots of it on overpriced bicycles and bicycle outfits and equipments but it really is a waste of all that good work if you don’t really ride and instead rely on the sums instead of common sense and experience to hold your place with fellow cyclists in the “social” side of the hobby.

Can’t really comment on the wheels (my planet-x al30s are faster than my shimano r501s, but one set are on a carbon race bike and one set are on a Ribble hack), but i have to correct some of the less conventional physics. Gravity is not an acceleration, it is an attractive force between objects with mass which is (on earth, generally) 9.8N/Kg. That just happens to make objects in free fall against no resistance accelerate at 9.8m/s^2, which is often called called acceleration due to gravity. (Not to be confused with heavier riders descending quickly towards a pub meal, which is acceleration due to gravy.)

Going uphill, you are not accelerating constantly, you’re just having to work against gravity and wind resistance, friction etc, so higher force to maintain the same constant speed.

John, fair enough. My GCSE physics books definitely referred to it as an acceleration, but terminology aside, what you’re saying and what I’m saying are effectively the same… Except…

Going uphill, you are not accelerating constantly, you’re just having to work against gravity and wind resistance, friction etc, so higher force to maintain the same constant speed.

On a bike, unless your nickname is Honda for your ability to spin perfect circles smoothly at a million rpm, anyone with a less than perfect pedalling action will be experiencing constant small accelerations and decelerations (too small for a Garmin to notice) as they pedal along. This will be far more noticeable when going uphill than it would be on the flat. In fact, on the flat, one can argue a heavier wheel could be preferable in certain situations due to the flywheel effect.

(Not to be confused with heavier riders descending quickly towards a pub meal, which is acceleration due to gravy.)

As someone who’s been on the gravy a bit too much of late, I’m loving this definition! It will explain why all of a sudden I’m starting to freewheel past others on any road descents though… 😉

What budget? There were some Ksyrium Elite’s WCS going for £300 recently on one of the German sites. 1500g light enough? I know, I know. Hand-built blah blah but Elite’s are nice for the money. I’ve 5k miles on a pair and they are still going strong.

I’ve just bought a pair of Zipp 303s from a friend who is emigrating (so got a great deal). They are incredibly fast; get to 20mph and they just take off. I’m finding them pretty good on the climbs too. How do they compare to my previous Mavic R-SYS wheels? Much faster.