Rishi! Sunak!

He seems like a nice polite young man. And he’s always smartly turned out, with his shoes polished and hair brushed. Not like some of ’em nowadays. Eeh I always say a nice polite young man should be smartly turned out. You can tell a lot about a nicely turned out polite young man by his shoes, I always say.

No no no! You don’t need to borrow what you are the sole issuer of!

So far as I can follow it @rone, MMT stresses that a person (even a central bank or government) cannot borrow back an iou that it issued (which is of course true, you cannot owe money to yourself). So issuing government debt = cancelling government iou’s (the ones implicit in the money used to buy the debt with), paying the debt back = issuing fresh government iou’s. Buying back bonds amounts to issuing the buy-back iou’s now rather than at the bonds’ maturity dates. If you ignore the separate legal personality of the central bank as MMT folk do, this would cancel those bonds (see above). But I imagine the BoE regards its separate status as important, so it does not treat it like this and puts the bonds back on the market as second hand bonds, when it gets round to doing so. Likewise the government, so it treats the money it gets from issuing bonds as an asset rather than a reduction in liablity.

Likewise the government, so it treats the money it gets from issuing bonds as an asset rather than a reduction in liablity.

Just briefly the BoE gets around all these complex balancing sheet activities by have different arms of its operations to appear at arms length. (I will dig out a link.,)

That bit is complex and I can’t pretend to understand it all.

A bond is simply a swap of an interest bearing asset for a non interest bearing asset. (Because the government can always cover its debts.)

Sorry not got much time but I’m glad people are engaging.

No no no! You don’t need to borrow what you are the sole issuer of!

Jesus you’d think people would get this by now. It’s like govt finance myths bingo. 🙄

Can I please urge everyone with questions about how govt finances work to go and do some very simple and accessible reading, and then come back and make daft statements like ‘we’ll end up like Zimbabwe if we spend more’ etc.

Places to start:

The Deficit Myth by Stephanie Skelton

https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy?s=20&t=sdVc-EN7sWTkUm0f6WpRDw

https://twitter.com/D_Blanchflower?s=20&t=N-lx2FarYosT9Hk8cBkn0w

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fiatmoney.asp#:~:text=Key%20Takeaways-,Fiat%20money%20is%20a%20government%2Dissued%20currency%20that%20is%20not,U.S.%20dollar%2C%20are%20fiat%20currencies.

He seems like a nice polite young man. And he’s always smartly turned out, with his shoes polished and hair brushed. Not like some of ’em nowadays. Eeh I always say a nice polite young man should be smartly turned out. You can tell a lot about a nicely turned out polite young man by his shoes, I always say.

As much as I realised this is a bit Tonge in cheek, there is a part of me that feels a little bit relieved we now have less of a lying nutcase or mysteriously incapable dimwit in no 10.

My parents know the butcher in Bedale, apparently he is a very nice young man when he pops into their shop.

“an election would be nice but its not gonna happen as its basically political suicide for the torys and why would they want that?”

Because they are shameless cowards who have doubtless considered calling a GE early with the intention of leaving Labour to deal with the s*** storm?

The Tories could then mount a new challenge in 4 years time when the situation is looking a bit brighter and Labour have been through the ringer?

But you’re probably right, thankfully.

Just briefly the BoE gets around all these complex balancing sheet activities by have different arms of its operations to appear at arms length. (I will dig out a link.,)

I am sure, but what about the Government (Treasury)? They no doubt keep accounts as well, and it is they who issue bonds. The Bank issues currency. The former has an account with the latter. That seems to keep things nice and separate from an accounting point of view. But I imagine that, even if they were the same legal person, they would still keep things separate accountancy-wise.

It was nice of him to spare a thought for Lizzie and thank her for the energy price cap.

Otherwise it would have cost him a fortune to heat that swimming pool

That’s another example of him being a nice young man; he was polite and said thanks.
What more could anyone expect?
I’m sure he’ll say sorry when he breaks something or makes a mistake.

Well, hopefully the NHS won’t get blanked like Hancock…

The UK economy was on its knees after World War 2, the country was skint, no one talked about “very unpopular things”.

On the contrary, they talked about highly popular things such as creating free universal healthcare, a huge building programme for decent affordable housing, and a modern welfare state.**

Even though the country was skint.

Edit : ** And they achieved it.

Yep, it’s weird one,but I have a very good feeling that having joe public returning armed after fighting a war may not have ended well had they not thrown something at the plebs.

I just think the current gov are just incredibly stale and dull and devoid of any ‘vision’ other than what has been tried a million times before.

(Always reminds me of the Lloyds names who were used to cashing in year after year and were unpleasantly surprised the time they had to pay out,they’d forgot what they were actually doing with their money.)

Mmm NHS, wasn’t he spending a lot of time with the US insurance companies a while back discussing ‘opportunities’.

That ^^ imo is the most brilliantly written critique of Rishi Sunak I have yet read, it hits every single nail on the head.

Having said that it is probably the only actual critique of Rishi Sunak that I have read, British newspapers seem only to have been interested in how well Sunak was fairing in the leadership election, rather than his politics and what a Sunak premiership might mean for the UK.

How ironic that it is an article in an American newspaper which digs deeper.

Normally I would quote one or two of the best points in a article but I genuinely find it impossible to chose any from that article as they are all excellent points.

Don’t read it if you are someone who thinks that Sunak becoming PM is some sort of step forward and don’t want to be disappointed by reality though.

FFS the link didn’t work!

No idea what the problem is try googling the headline

The New York Times: Opinion | Rishi Sunak Won’t Save Britain.

But I imagine that, even if they were the same legal person, they would still keep things separate accountancy-wise.

Reminds me of a story I was told by an exFD of one of Robert Maxwell’s companies when he was a colleague of mine:

exFD – Robert, you’ve to keep your private businesses and your public businesses separate
RM – Oh, like pockets, a separate one for each?
exFD – Yes
And as RM walks away my colleague heard him say quietly – “separate pockets, same trousers…”

Well, hopefully the NHS won’t get blanked like Hancock…

That was very, very funny.

The New York Times: Opinion | Rishi Sunak Won’t Save Britain.

It’s odd that more hasn’t been made of the levelling down by the Conservative party over the last 3 years. The changes to the funding formulas for councils have shifted money away from deprived areas towards better off but historically ‘underfunded’ areas. What this means of course is that the deprived areas which have much lower council and business rate takes now also get less support from the treasury, while richer areas which have much better per capita tax takes, and lower costs of provisions for supporting their communities get more than they used to. Bonkers.

While there’s a lot I don’t like about Bozza, I do think he was the balance to Rishi’s austerity and welfare cutting program, and I think we’ll actually be worse off (as a country, overall) without Boris’ influence. OMG I cannot believe I just said that but there you go. I did.

You know labour will be using that video of sunak in the leadership hustings saying he had moved funding from deprived areas

I do think he was the balance to Rishi’s austerity and welfare cutting program

Johnson’s skill was to take things from you, while smiling and convincing you he was giving you something. Levelling up was/is the perfect example of that.

The New York Times: Opinion | Rishi Sunak Won’t Save Britain

The Tory party has cleared out all but the Brexiteer nutters. Of which Sunak is still one.

Therefore everything they do has a delusional fantasy at it’s core, so is ultimately doomed to be the same abject failure and chaos of the last 6 years

To make any progress, the UK has to hold its hands up and acknowledge that Brexit is a disaster. Sunak is still a believer, so is on a hiding to nothing right from the off

Johnson’s skill was to take things from you, while smiling and convincing you he was giving you something. Levelling up was/is the perfect example of that.

Im not so sure. While he has many flaws, he was/has never been ideologically a right wing conservative or indeed a brexiteer. He’s a populist, and is prone to doing what he thinks will make him popular in order to keep the Boris gravy train rolling, but that kept some degree of balance as he was always playing both sides – the public and the party. Rishi is far more driven by what he believes in and will I think be far more likely to tell you one thing and do another.

He’s a populist, and is prone to doing saying what he thinks will make him popular

Austerity never ended under Johnson. He just had the knack of making people think otherwise. Levelling up was that in spades. Telling us one thing, doing the opposite. Transport in the North. New hospitals. School budgets.

Just read that NYT article that Ernie mentions.

Very depressing read, but I guess it does explain why Rishi is so (relatively) popular with Tory MPs.

(Essentially saying that Rishi always was and remains a dispassionate Thacherite who will seek to achieve fiscal stability by further shrinking the state & squeezing welfare provision.)

Austerity never ended under Johnson. He just had the knack of making people think otherwise. Levelling up was that in spades. Telling us one thing, doing the opposite. Transport in the North. New hospitals. School budgets.

I don’t disagree it was still happening, I’m talking about relative positions on the crap-o-meter of politics. I would argue that we will see increase in ideologically driven austerity etc. under Sunak than we did under Boris because Boris was, improbably, a ‘good’ influence on the hardline small state / low taxxers in the Tories.

For me austerity means cuts in government spending, did much of that happen under Johnson? If so how much?

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/rishi-sunak-autumn-budget-2021-high-spending-boris-johnson-influence-1270488

Rishi Sunak’s high-spending 2021 autumn budget had Boris Johnson’s name stamped all over it

The Prime Minister has forced the Chancellor to splash the cash in a way last seen under Blair and Brown

Boris was, improbably, a ‘good’ influence on the hardline small state / low taxxers in the Tories.

Boris Johnson was always on about small sate / low tax… that was his other skill though… different messages for different audiences.

https://www.google.com/search?q=boris+johnson+small+state&oq=boris+johnson+small+state

I’m not buying the narrative around Sunak being elected as the first non white PM because he wasnt really, he was selected by MP’s from his own party who were too scared to put the vote to their own party members, yet alone the country.

It’s like the narrative that the Tories have had 3 female prime minister’s. Again, they haven’t really, May and Truss were there on a trial period but failed. Work experience at best.

They were still 1st Lords of the Treasury, no matter how short.

And May did get support from the public. Voted in with a minority of votes, but that’s pretty normal in our system.

And, I feel it is good that we have a Hindu as PM… even if without a public mandate… something positive to balance up the fact that him being stinking rich “might” have helped him to get there. I’m looking to grab any positive I can out of 2022.

As a non (IE never) Tory voter I thought it was a good first speak from Rishi, and he cirtainly gives a more confidence than BJ or Truss for me. However repeating we have an economic crisis in the UK, mentioned covid / Russia but the be B in the room ignored again…..

Some stirring oratory today as Barry from accounts takes over the top job from Lynn from HR

Well I thought that was a good – and the right – speech. I’m also led to understand his picking a Cabinet of greatest skill* regardless of their political support for Sunak. If he gets results like he just talked over the next two years he may just get them back on track.

To my simple mind at least he’s come across more compelling than anyone else in the last 3 years albeit based on one speech.

* I appreciate this may not be a high bar.

Looks like one positive already, moggy mogg has gone

Grab all the positives. Who else is gone?

Looking at the photos in the Times he seems to have shot up overnight. Maybe he’s grown into the job.

picking a Cabinet of greatest skill

Of course not, it will be a cabinet to heal rifts in the party. The good of the country has nothing to do with it.

Looking at the photos in the Times he seems to have shot up overnight. Maybe he’s grown into the job.

A special little one. All future PM interviews will require smaller furniture. Interviewers to be kept out of shot to avoid scale comparisons.

— Kelvin Owers (@spittingcat) October 25, 2022