Rishi! Sunak!

But your views are so outside even just a small minority of the UK that no politician really cares what you think, and shouldn’t.

STW at its polite and respectful political debating very best.

My views often chime better with public opinion than the STW census – which so often appears to be that the UK public are stupid racist bigots.

And on the question of me agreeing with binners suggestion that Starmer should have told Elphicke to get stuffed it is apparently a widely shared opinion among Labour politicians, even Neil kinnick, of all people, has spoken out and criticised the decision to accept her into the Labour Party.

ERG folk in the Tories – swivel eyed loons filling the servers of STW with rage day after day.

Yup, this thread has become quite an eye-opener for me. I have never joined in the  relentless daily bile directed at Tory politicians on STW. And there has always seems to have been a special place for “Tory scum” who are paid up members of the ERG.

So it would be no exaggeration to say that I am a little surprised just how incredibly forgiving some people can be – “yeah buts she’s good on housing, which will be very useful for Labour”.

I guess what it probably boils down to is that for some individuals it is clear that Keir Starmer can do no wrong. For them he is indeed the perfect politician who, whatever his position, it is always correct.

I have no doubt that for them if news broke that Elphicke had approached Starmer to join Labour, and Starmer had told her to get stuffed, they would be on here right now arguing that it was of course the most sensible response.

The irony is that Starmer the lawyer doesn’t appear to be driven by any personally held beliefs but instead simply does what his advisors advice him to do.

Were any of the Labour Party members on here vetted before they joined? I certainly wasn’t.

For them he is indeed the perfect politician who, whatever his position, it is always correct.

Well, that’s obviously just straw man nonsense. No one thinks he’s always correct.

The thing with Starmer is that he is staying totally focussed on trying to get Labour into office. Some will never forgive him for that. Even if he succeeds.

Maybe so but if she was still in the tory party right now you’d be calling her a swivel-eyed loon.

I still think she’s a swivel-eyed loon. I thought Kate Hoey was as well, but that didn’t stop me voting for Josh in 2017 for the first time. I’ll happily vote and leaflet drop for him this time around as well. When the election finally **** arrives.

The thing with Starmer is that he is staying totally focussed on trying to get Labour into office

Uh huh and you know this how exactly?  You are pretty much proving Ernies point.

Were any of the Labour Party members on here vetted before they joined? I certainly wasn’t.

Chances are you were but nothing more than a quick check of your name against a banned list and possibly a quick google for social media in your name.

Potential MPs would have rather more though.

which of their 13 remaining seats would a wouldbe Tory MP fancy standing in?

All this does is highlight once again how ridiculous the first past the post electoral system really is. In that prediction Greens get 7% but two seats, but Lib Dems get 9% and forty-four seats. Even the swivel-eyed loons (erm, the Tories not the Greens) should be represented proportionally.

STW at its polite and respectful political debating very best.

I was polite AND respectful, just pointing out that no Party is targeting folk like you – as you (and me) are outliers, because we’re interested in this kinda stuff.

So it would be no exaggeration to say that I am a little surprised just how incredibly forgiving some people can be

(Speaking purely for myself here!)

You aren’t wrong Ernie. I’m very forgiving towards Starmer and Labour and have been for some time, ive had my fill over the last 14 years. Once (hopefully) Labour are in power after the GE I most certainly won’t be so forgiving. I think a lot of people will agree on that.

For the moment there is one thing I absolutely will not forgive Starmer for: Losing the election.

It might not chime with others but that’s about the only red line I have with Labour, again, for the moment.

It might not chime with others but that’s about the only red line I have with Labour, again, for the moment.

Pretty much my view too.

Ernie

I e always found you tolerance of tory politicians puzzling.  These folk have blood on their hands for the deliberate harm they have caused.

I will never forgive the damage they have done

I guess what it probably boils down to is that for some individuals it is clear that Keir Starmer can do no wrong. For them he is indeed the perfect politician who, whatever his position, it is always correct.

I don’t see any evidence of that either on here or elsewhere.

The irony is that Starmer the lawyer doesn’t appear to be driven by any personally held beliefs but instead simply does what his advisors advice him to do.

Well that comes down to what you think a leader should be doing.  Being a pragmatist and involving many people, or making us all do what they want? I honestly don’t think the latter is at all sustainable.  History is strewn with the wreckage of this approach.

Being a pragmatist and involving many people

You might have an argument here aside from Starmer hasnt been involving many people. He has been busy purging the left but now is welcoming the hard right. Someone who makes Rees-Mogg look a bit of a moderate.

Would you draw the red line there?

Well that comes down to what you think a leader should be doing.

I like them to have integrity and hold to their beliefs.  Letting that **** Elphicke become a representative of his party is neither of those things.

I thought Kate Hoey was as well, but that didn’t stop me voting for Josh in 2017 for the first time. I’ll happily vote and leaflet drop for him this time around as well. When the election finally **** arrives.

You know when people who aren’t into politics are asked on the news about politicians and the answer that always comes back is ‘they’re all the same’? Well Starmer and Labour accepting Elphicke only proves that point. I’m not voting for any party or politician who’s only aim is to gain power with no intention of changing anything.

I have no doubt that JFG is well intentioned, but those intentions are worthless if he’s constrained by a party and leadership which doesn’t intend to change anything. I’ll be going back to either voting for the greens if they stand or not bothering at all.

PS. Kelvin if you have the time and energy to campaign for JFG I might suggest that would be much better directed at local activities and campaigns (the anti-Walshaw windfarm campaign for instance) which will actually have an impact rather than wasting it on putting another empty suit in parliament.

Absolutely nuts, but the wild yougov poll that implies only 13 Tory MPs surviving

half of them are in Scotland

The Conservatives could lose all but 13 of their MPs a new YouGov poll suggests

Here's who would be left

Helen Grant
Rebecca Harris
David Reed
Joy Morrissey
Sir John Whittingdale
John Hayes
Mike Wood
Alister Jack
David Mundell
John Lamont
David Duguid
Harriet Cross
Andrew Bowie pic.twitter.com/gh2dgDeI9Y

— Adam Bienkov (@AdamBienkov) May 9, 2024

(the anti-Walshaw windfarm campaign for instance)

I want a huge increase in onshore wind generation, and I’m not about to get all NIMBY about it.

Happy to campaign against the incinerator plan for Sowerby Bridge.

Clean air and low carbon energy should be two of the highest priorities for the UK.

None of this runs counter to getting the right person into parliament to represent the area.

I doubt I’ll ever vote Tory, but they don’t all come across as entitled arrogant only in it for themselves types.  In fact most politicians I’ve met do have their hearts in the right place – not all, and even then they don’t always get things right, or implement the heart in the right place in the way I would feel it should be. But the world is not black and white and everything is a compromise.

But yes for every intelligent, well intentioned Baroness Warsi Tory there’s half a dozen Elphickes.

I want a huge increase in onshore wind generation, and I’m not about to get all NIMBY about it.

Used to think the same until some local ecologists put me right. It’s really not a NIMBY thing. Anyway off-topic, but you should look into how much carbon will be released by the destruction of the blanket peat bog this scheme will involve.

My question is always why would someone want to be an MP for the Tory party if they are a decent person who has their heart in the right place.  You have all the evidence before you and you think that is the right party for you.

There were a couple of people (Sarah Wallaston and one other) who were clearly in the wrong party pre-2019.

My question is always why would someone want to be an MP for the Tory party if they are a decent person who has their heart in the right place.

To win a seat and gain power. Their personal ambitions take priority over being a decent person, and they know full well that any good intentions they have will be crushed by the nature of party politics and bureacracy. Those who think they will be able to buck the system and follow through on those good intentions are simply deluding themselves. Until we fundamentally change our political system to eliminate the influence of private interests and remove/reduce the power of MPs this will never change.

so they are neither a decent person nor have their heart in the right place as they sell their soul to the devil for personal gain.

There were a couple of people (Sarah Wallaston and one other) who were clearly in the wrong party pre-2019.

I’d probably put Heidi Allan in that bracket too: people who were probably well-intentioned but fell in with people with dodgy societal and economic viewpoints and lent their support to terrible things. Many of those people across society are still unwinding that received conservative orthodoxy years on from the Austerity-Brexit debacle, quietly not supporting the modern Conservative Party any more and not likely to be tempted back by culture wars and fascism.

so they are neither a decent person nor have their heart in the right place as they sell their soul to the devil for personal gain.

That’s about the gist of it. It’s the main reason I’ve never warmed to anyone with parliamentary ambitions and have very little trust in any of them. There’s a tiny few on the left of the labour party (John McDonnell, Corbyn et al) and people like Caroline Lucas who I think genuinely care about normal people and want to change things, but even they would probably acknowledge it’s a bit pointless.

I’ve got a lot more time for those working outside parliament though. There’s a huge amount of change that’s achievable outside of national politics. Andy Burnham and others are showing what’s possible at regional/local levels, and there’s a huge amount going on in various campaigns and voluntary groups who do an enormous amount of good.

so they are neither a decent person nor have their heart in the right place as they sell their soul to the devil for personal gain.

That’s a very binary take on a fairly complicated arguement, especially when they, like us, are constrained so much my FPTP.

I’ve been in touch with our CLP about my thoughts on Elphicke.  I very torn between taking the poopscoop approach, or just abandoning support for them now.  I’m essentially a Green, though have voted Labour all my life….. it’s just not a party for the progressive left these days.  The worrying thing is that history generally shows Labour moving to the right once in power!

headache no. 278 for Sunak

could another by election brewing?

Seems Tory MP Conor Burns is under investigation by the Commissioner for potentially breaking rules of conduct.

He previously had the whip restored in Dec 22 after being cleared of “serious misconduct” at Tory party conference. pic.twitter.com/6W18wGe9vt

— Ava-Santina (@AvaSantina) May 9, 2024

https://x.com/Haggis_UK/status/1788514166111617269

Edit: I give up, how do you get the twitter/x embedded tweet thing working?

Ernie

I e always found you tolerance of tory politicians puzzling. These folk have blood on their hands for the deliberate harm they have caused.

I will never forgive the damage they have done

Well I am obviously not the one with the greatest “tolerance” towards Tory politicians on STW. Personally I don’t believe that a Tory bigot who has spent the last 5 years pursuing a hard-right agenda in the Commons has any place in a political party set up by the organised working-class to represent them in parliament, and which is still funded by trade unions, including mine.

If you mean that I don’t express the same level of intense hatred towards Tory politicians, or any other politician for that matter, as some on STW seem to do on a daily basis, that would be a perfectly fair observation. I generally don’t tend to hate people and I am not going to waste my time nurturing intense personal emotions towards Tory politicians.

Natalie Elphicke is a Tory politician. Her values and moral compass are obviously exactly the same today as they were yesterday morning before she crossed the floor. She has not gone from being a hard-right politician on Tuesday to being a “left of centre” politician on Wednesday.

Some people might think that it doesn’t really matter because politics is all just a bit of a game and the important thing is point scoring/winning. It is a fairly widespread attitude and one which helps to explain growing public cynicism and contempt towards politicians.

What I find particularly interesting, apart from the revelation that ERG aren’t after all really that bad especially if they have an expertise in house building and are willing to unselfishly commit themselves to working for a Labour government, is why no one seems to be particularly interested in why Natalie Elphicke has joined the Labour.

Apparently just before it was announced senior Tory politicians got wind that Elphicke was about to resign from the party, they assumed that it was to join Reform UK, which would have been deeply damaging to Rishi Sunak. Her joining Labour is totally illogical, well in political terms anyway, so why is no one apparently asking why she did it?

My question is always why would someone want to be an MP for the Tory party if they are a decent person who has their heart in the right place.

Because they think more right wing approaches are the correct answer? For example you could be a free market enthusiast but then want a safety net for those it fails.

I guess the alternative is to join labour and drag them rightwards but seems better for them to join the tories or lib dems.

Because they think more right wing approaches are the correct answer? For example you could be a free market enthusiast but then want a safety net for those it fails.

Bloody centrists…..

For those with short memories of very right wing politicians moving across the floor, may I suggest looking up Quentin Davies?

This has always happened, it will continue to always happen, for any number of reasons that will be from personal to tactical (Winston Churchill moved parties twice, co-incidentally timed as they went into or out of power🧐) At this level politics is very much a media spectator sport, but just becasue this bullshit happens, doesn’t mean that it defines any thing to do with manifestos or policies. Any one who thinks that Starmer or the Labour leadership are going to pay any attention or change any policies based on anything that Elphicke has to say needs to loosen thier grip on their pearls a bit.

No one thinks that Elphicke is anything other than a total skip-fire of an MP, this is nothing but a useful bit of theatre. End.

No one thinks that Elphicke is anything other than a total skip-fire of an MP, this is nothing but a useful bit of theatre. End.

Got to say if that was the best argument I could put forward I would want “End” as well.

This has always happened, it will continue to always happen

I think that you might have missed the mood of some people who object to Elphicke being welcomed with open arms into the Labour Party, including apparently quite a few Labour politicians.

The issue for a lot of people isn’t that a Tory has defected to Labour but that the Tory in question was on the far-right of the Tory Party, you frankly cannot get more right-wing.

An obvious party for her to defect to would have been Reform UK, not the Labour Party. You don’t think this should raise any questions, not least when someone like Diane Abbott with decades of commitment to Labour has had the Labour whip “suspended”?

The example you offer was not on the far-right of the Tory Party, in fact he was a Kenneth Clark supporter.

You deserve another 5 years of the Tories

@intheborders that’s what we seem to be getting either way. I’d rather get it with a clean conscience.

I had a response from the Labour candidate to my email about the Elphicke situation.  He said that he was passing mine and ‘all of the comments from others’ on to central office.  He also offered to give me a call to have a chat further.  Can’t argue with that tbf.

Were any of the Labour Party members on here vetted before they joined?

I was. They said I had to be spayed before I could join. Damn your eyes, Starmer!

But I’m not voting for a party which courts open racists

Oh, come on, be fair, it’s not like she wrote an enthusiastic foreword to a racist book or anything.

The issue for a lot of people isn’t that a Tory has defected to Labour but that the Tory in question was on the far-right of the Tory Party, you frankly cannot get more right-wing.

Yes its noteworthy that the mp whoever it was last week didnt get the same response.

Sure slightly raised eyebrows and questions about why and when would Starmer draw the line but nowhere close to when Starmer demonstrated he doesnt seem to have a line (on the right anyway).

Oh, come on, be fair, it’s not like she wrote an enthusiastic foreword to a racist book or anything.

I’m guessing that you  expect people not to read your link much beyond the headline and the allegations made by a few individuals?

I read the article to the end and as someone who won’t tolerate racism I can’t see a problem, the full article makes that clear.

I think the comment attributed to Tristram Hunt, a respected historian, sounds very valid.

First question on BBC QT is on Elphicke.