Prince Andrew, what a cowardly little ****.

follow the money

"When Epstein was a director, the Black Family Foundation donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Tony Blair Faith Foundation. Millions also were donated to the MoMA. Other common recipients included Charles Bronfman’s Birthright Israel Foundation."

— Whitney Webb (@_whitneywebb) October 13, 2020

Odd there’s been so little mention of the hidden cameras…

I’m not sure what “it” is here but I deliberately chose those words to prove a point – that it is easy to be potentially misleading. Shall we go with “17-year old female” instead of “child” or “woman” then? Or perhaps, “adolescent”?

Ah, so you asked me to “stick to the facts” but are being deliberately misleading yourself. Great.

If a 17-year old female (or male) is not to be considered a woman (or man) then what you’re suggesting is that in the UK it’s perfectly legal for children to marry and reproduce. Is that not concerning? Or icky?

No, it doesn’t concern me.

That comes from the P&O liners running to India, before air conditioning was common place The portside cabins were cooler on the way out and stbd cooler on the way back to the UK. You paid more for them.

I’ve heard this as well, but there’s no evidence for it

follow the money

How does Cilla Black fit into this little flight of fancy?

That comes from the P&O liners running to India, before air conditioning was common place The portside cabins were cooler on the way out and stbd cooler on the way back to the UK. You paid more for them.

I’ve heard this as well, but there’s no evidence for it

Sounds like utter crap, the temperature would even out regardless.

Chitty chitty bang bang has a lot to answer for.

Sounds like utter crap, the temperature would even out regardless.

Not if you’re heading east/west above the equator in a ship painted black it wouldn’t.

POSH Not air-con/temperature related but the side the sun would predominately shine on. Ladies should never be brown!

Racist.

Ah, so you asked me to “stick to the facts” but are being deliberately misleading yourself. Great.

As I said, to prove a point. Seems to have been effective, n’est-ce pas?

No, it doesn’t concern me.

You aren’t concerned about marrying off children? OK.

This is another reason why pulling definitions out of the air and presenting them as immutable fact can be problematic (and why I wanted people to think rather than react). The trafficking charge here comes about because in one US state the age of sexual consent was set at 18, another state was 16. In the UK it used to be 12 I believe (someone else said this earlier?) and in some parts of the world it still is. What’s the difference? Are we suggesting that people in New York mature earlier than people in Florida? Do they just have lower standards?

Posh – port out starboard home.

Definitions from Oxford Languages
posh

Origin

early 20th century: perhaps from slang posh, denoting either a dandy or a coin of small value. There is no evidence to support the folk etymology that posh is formed from the initials of port out starboard home (referring to the more comfortable accommodation, out of the heat of the sun, on ships between England and India)

I’ll bet those posh folk ate marmalade and saluted the union jack.

Jolly good job too; a country with such a rich history of chivalry!

Arise sir Tony!

Surely it’s about time the Right Honourable Lord Mandelson got bumped up the honours list…

What’s the difference? Are we suggesting that people in New York mature earlier than people in Florida? Do they just have lower standards?

Possibly a poor example, but in “Western countries” children/adolescents have more time to mature, and have more protection from parents.

In less well developed countries, children need to “mature” a lot faster as they have to support themselves (inc working at a younger age), and look after younger siblings and/or older relatives.

Presumably, the age of consent in those countries is lower because of this (and, I guess, the fairly recent [historically] rise in age of consent in the UK and other developed countries reflects this as well as we transitioned thru the industrial revolution).

Arise sir Tony!

This forum badly needs a Bozo Filter.

Posh – port out starboard home.

Nope, this is a nonsense widely believed to be true, which is why I used it as an example.

“Western countries” … In less well developed countries,

Sure, this crossed my mind. Perhaps there may be genetic considerations here too. Like, people from some countries tend to be taller or shorter than in others, maybe that is a contributory factor? (I’m speculating, I don’t know)

But between nearby US states?

Shame you’re not modding these days eh…

It’s a fair point about the rise in the age of consent, though the overall story remains the same:

In Victorian London, the age of consent was just thirteen. Unwitting girls were regularly enticed, tricked and sold into prostitution. If not marked out for a gentleman in a city brothel, they were legally trafficked to Brussels, Paris and beyond.

All the while, the Establishment turned a blind eye. That is, until one policeman wrote an incendiary report.

Disgraced for testifying against a violent colleague, Irish inspector Jeremiah Minahan was transferred to the backwater of Chelsea as punishment. Here he met Mary Jeffries, a notorious trafficker and procuress who counted Cabinet members and royalty among her clientele. Within days of reporting Jeffries, Minahan was unceremoniously forced out of the Metropolitan Police. So he turned private detective, setting out to expose the peers and politicians more interested in shielding their own positions (and peccadilloes) than London’s child prostitutes.

The findings Minahan did reveal in 1885 sparked national outrage: riots, arrests, a tabloid war and a sensational trial…other secrets were so fearful he took them to his grave, where they remained – until now.

This is the true tale of a man caught between a corrupt English Establishment and his own rebel heart: a very Victorian scandal, but also, a story for our times.

Age of consent caries widely across europe from 14 to 18

its a purely moral and political question – nothing to do with maturity or anything else.  Its about politicians controlling womens ( or girls) bodies)and moral panics

16 in the UK is daft a anything IMO – as its regularly broken by large numbers of people therefore does not serve to protect at all. this is why I would rather have a sliding scale – 15 if the age gap is less than 2 years, 16 if the age gap is less than 4 years, 18 if the age gap is more than 6 years ( something like that anyway – not dead set on the ages and age gaps)

As it is we criminalise many thousands of young folk every year – but when did you last here of the partner of a girl of 15 that got pregnant being prosecuted.

a law widely ignore and never prosecuted is just ignored and brings the law into disrepute

https://www.ageofconsent.net/continent/europe

dunno about you guys but at 17 I had left school, traveled widely on my own and was an adult.

dunno about you guys but at 17 I had left school, traveled widely on my own and was an adult.

Equally, I’ve met 30 year olds who don’t know how to boil an egg.

We have to legislate for the lowest common denominator. In terms of consent, that seems to be 18 in most civilized places, and in my mind, more or less correct.

Shame you’re not modding these days eh…

For what it’s worth, I very very rarely banned anyone whom I was actively debating with as a user as that would’ve been an abuse of my position. For that to happen, you would either have had to have crossed a line by a very long chalk or ignored repeated <mod> requests to cease and desist.

But anyway.

the overall story remains the same:

Really? That was a hundred and fifty years ago. Do you have any photos of Queen Victoria in the same room as someone with smallpox?

I’m no particular fan of the monarchy especially oily toads like Andrew and I’m vehemently opposed to most modern-day MPs, but surely even you can’t seriously be going “Victorian London… makes you think…”?

Do you actually believe this stuff or are you just fishing to get a rise out of people?

Clearly abuse of power is of no great concern to you…

In terms of consent, that seems to be 18 in most civilized places, and in my mind, more or less correct.

18 is actuallly an outlier.  16 is more common.  the only countries with 18 for consent in europe are vatican city, turkey and malta.  14 is not uncommon

So if the age of consent is 18 but you can get married at 16?  Or are you going to argue marriage should not be until 18?

See my link above

18 is actuallly an outlier. 16 is more common. the only countries with 18 for consent in europe are vatican city, turkey and malta. 14 is not uncommon

So if the age of consent is 18 but you can get married at 16? Or are you going to argue marriage should not be until 18?

Can a 16yo take out a credit contract in thier own name? that should be a better indicator of responsibility.

Raise it to 20 for all I care, my names not Andrew 🙂

We have to legislate for the lowest common denominator. In terms of consent, that seems to be 18 in most civilized places, and in my mind, more or less correct.

Large chunks of Europe must be very uncivilised then.

Equally, I’ve met 30 year olds who don’t know how to boil an egg.

I’ve met 70-year olds who don’t know that. “Oh, the wife always did the cooking.”

We have to legislate for the lowest common denominator.

I disagree. Hard legislative limits like this are a trade-off. A 30mph speed limit isn’t a lowest common denominator, rather it’s a figure which (rightly or wrongly) has been decided as a sensible compromise between road safety and still making progress. If that weren’t the case we’d be back to having men with red warning flags walking in front of cars. Zero accidents and mass employment, everyone’s a winner.

In the UK we’ve decided that, somewhat counterintuitively perhaps, for the purposes of English Law people aren’t considered adults until they are 18, but they can get married and have sex aged 16 (and these days are likely to have been shagging long before that). A pair of 17-year olds could be married with a child of their own all totally lawfully, so long as he doesn’t send her a dick pic cos that would be illegal and potentially get him on a register.

Biology doesn’t work like that, people don’t radically change overnight on their birthday. Some people hit puberty at an earlier age than others, some mature sexually earlier, some mature emotionally earlier, even if they’re all within the same demographic. I wasn’t ready mentally to be having sex at 16 (though gods know I wanted to!), I think I was 20 when I popped my cherry and it was probably about the right time for me. But emotional maturity is harder to define so is harder to legislate for and thus harder to safeguard. Which is why we need numbers on poles – uh, legal age limits.

Clearly abuse of power is of no great concern to you…

We’ve discussed this and you’re already wasting too much of my time so I’m not retyping it, read back a couple of pages.

But emotional maturity is harder to define so is harder to legislate for and thus harder to safeguard

We sort of actually have that in UK law.  Gillick competence the concept is known as

Raise it to 20 for all I care

The elephant in the room here is that 14-year olds are routinely shagging each other. I cannot verify this claim, but I heard a couple of years ago now that the preferred method of contraception in the absence of being able to get it easily via other methods was “up the bum.” You’ve more chance of Canute telling the tide to go out than you have of stopping horny teenagers from playing hide the sausage.

The age of sexual consent is there for their protection and I reckon TJ is on the money here with his notion of relative rather than absolute values. A couple of 15-year olds discovering their sexuality together I’d file under “where’s the victim here?” whereas a 15-year old and a 40-year old not so much. A lad aged 16 years and one day old sleeps with his girlfriend aged 15 years and 364 days, by the letter of the law he’s now a sex offender because they differ in age by two days. That’s surely madness.

“close in age” or romeo and Juliet exemptions while not widespread are relatively common although they vary widely

Again see the link I put in a few posts above

Romeo and Juliet exemptions

I’d definitely have a register for people that have sex while listening to Dire Straits. Absolute wrong’uns.

Not if you’re heading east/west above the equator in a ship painted black it wouldn’t.

From first hand experience, you’re wrong.

I’d definitely have a register for people that have sex while listening to Dire Straits. Absolute wrong’uns.

Not a fan of Tunnel of Love then?

Money for nothing and the kicks for free?

Looks in on thread.

Notices JhJ throwing odd statements around as “fact”.

Leaves thread, not to return.

(JhJ – are you in a self build forum? Someone posted yesterday about us all being traded on a Vatican stock market from birth, our land having been stolen from us for the ruling shadow figures to use…)

At the end of the day, we’ve all been taught to take it up the bum from the Royals and their tame parliamentarians our whole lives; far too many folk do indeed seem to enjoy it

At the end of the day, we’ve all been taught to take it up the bum from the Royals and their tame parliamentarians our whole lives; far too many folk do indeed seem to enjoy it

Now you are blatantly trolling. Go away.

Come now, look at all the progress that has been made in the quest for justice since I kicked off all those years ago!

Point of order

Not a fan of Tunnel of Love then?

Tunnel of Love was Bruce Springsteen not Dire Straits.

the overall story remains the same:

Really? That was a hundred and fifty years ago.

Clearly abuse of power is of no great concern to you…

Perhaps I misunderstand here; are you suggesting that girls of varying ages being recruited by questionable means into a life of international trafficking and sex slavery involving Politicians and Royalty leading to police investigations being shut down bears no similarity to the Epstein case simply because it was a long time ago?