Pity the poor convicted murderers…

Wise words “It’s better to make a mistake forgiving than make one condemning”

And do we want a justice system or a vengeance system?

I note that Loddrik hasn’t contributed to this thread for some pages

loddrik (trolling) 1

STW (rest) 0

I think asking about his views on drug dealers probably scared him off.

has anyone posted this?

some horrendous stories even Loddrik might stop and think, maybe

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For those concerned about the fact that there will inevitably be a number of innocent people who would be subjected to capital punishment, there’s also inevitably a number of victims of reoffending by some who might have received the death penalty.

At the extreme end of the spectrum, I do struggle with the amounts we spend on perpetrators of heinous crimes who will never be released and would rather this was spent on those who haven’t shown a total disregard for their fellow man.

There is a very obvious scale regarding the weight of evidence and some cases where there is zero doubt as regards guilt so the innocent person argument doesn’t apply.

What about people who legally enable/encourage people to do legal things that lead to their death?

Mr Kipling would be at the top of the list.

All joking aside, I’ve been unfortunate enough to have known two people who were convicted of murder. Both are particularly sorry stories that I won’t go in to in detail. One of the individuals is now out, lives a peaceful life and tries to be a good person whilst struggling to live with what he did. The other killed himself in prison.

I used to think the world was a pretty black and white place when it came to taking a life. Seeing first hand how circumstances can change things I now realise there are a thousand shades of grey in between.

One of the individuals was placed in a terrible situation through life choices, gullibility and the actions of others. The other was pushed, threatened and harassed until he snapped.

Both of them would deserve to be put to death according to some. What would that have gained? Certainly not justice. Both situations were sad enough without adding more deaths to the equation.

I went to school with This delightful fellow. Where do we stand on him or his victims?

I do struggle with the amounts we spend on perpetrators of heinous crimes who will never be released

The entire prison service costs less than 0.5% of total Government spending.

That’s a price worth paying.

there are only 70 people doing whole life tariffs currently- ie definitely wont ever be released.

I assume some others will die in prison but the “wont ever get released “[ because the crime was so bad rather than they are so old] is a tiny number of the prison population.

mikewsmith » If you value life you value it all

Apart from wasps, mossies and horseflies, obviously.

But seriously, that’s an admirable value to carry, especially if you can still hold it when the shit turns up on your own doorstep.

Rubbish troll. OP 1/10

nealglover – Member
That’s a price worth paying

Let’s say £40kpa for 30yrs so a total cost of say £1.5m in no real terms. That buys a lot of really good care etc for deserving cases. They’re real people with families too.

Junkyard – lazarus
… the “wont ever get released “is a tiny number of the prison population.

There’s many more offenders who could be considered if the death penalty was reintroduced but that’s a separate discussion.

Killing people to teach people that killing people is wrong. Yay logic!

I have not read the whole thread but I want the capital punishment types to think on this the Birmingham 6 and Guilford 4 would all have been executed – all were innocent.

are you happy for innocent people to be hung? ‘cos that is one certain outcome of capital punishment

What about if its your son who is the innocent that is stitched up?

Just read that 1 in 25 executed prisoners in the US are/were innocent.

That’s a lot more than I expected
😯

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1837152/paedo-peter-scullys-sick-campaign-of-child-rape-and-murder-is-so-horrific-the-philippines-want-to-bring-back-death-penalty-just-to-execute-him/

People like that deffo deserve the death penalty. Not sure why you’d think otherwise.

People like that deffo deserve the death penalty. Not sure why you’d think otherwise.

Because we’re capable of thinking beyond kneejerk, emotional reactions and looking at wider pictures?

because wher do you draw the line? Ok no one would defnd him but how are yo9u going to endsure folk like the guildford 4 are not excecuted

How about the case of timothy Evans? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Evans An innocent man excecuted

Or stephan downing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Downing_case

because wher do you draw the line?

Paedos

because wher do you draw the line?
Paedos

The problem is, everyone has a line. There would be an awful lot of people that crossed them. If you let emotion run public policy the world would be utter chaos.

paedos – still the issue that someone could be found guilty and then later be exhonorated

People like that deffo deserve the death penalty. Not sure why you’d think otherwise.

Try reading the rest of the thread, pretty much everyone has already explained why.

paedos – still the issue that someone could be found guilty and then later be exhonorated

…and if they know they’re going to get the death sentence for fiddling with a child, wouldn’t they just kill the kid to reduce the chances of getting caught knowing the penalty is no more?

tjagain – Member
because wher do you draw the line?

There will never be a perfect system but there are other scenarios where we have to determine an arbitrary line and do ie medical care.

With a well implemented system the errors would be minimised. Whether any error is acceptable is a judgement call. We have people killed by reoffenders but we don’t refuse to in release anyone to save every life.

tjagain – Member
paedos – still the issue that someone could be found guilty and then later be exhonorated

Ironically came home tonight and she’s watching a programme about Ian Huntley and the Soham girls, it’s on now, I have got to say he’s a candidate for the gas chamber if ever there were.

Edit, he’s even tried to commit suicide, why not let him? But no, I dare say we’ll finance his gender re assignment request and transference to a womens prison such is the way of the PC world these days..

For those concerned about the fact that there will inevitably be a number of innocent people who would be subjected to capital punishment, there’s also inevitably a number of victims of reoffending by some who might have received the death penalty.

Again, 1 in 25 put on death row = innocent. Murder rates higher in States with the death penalty and murder rates went up in states where it was reintroduced. How do you manage to square that logically and morally with support for the death penalty?

I get the feeling, that maybe, just maybe – that the lack of value for life shown by the State encourages people to think that killing is a justifiable way of solving differences. What’s the point of killing an offender to protect the public from his/her re-offence if the public then murders each other at a higher rate anyway?

It’s like giving a drug to 100 fat people, because it will save 2 of them from a heart attack but kill 4 of them through side effects. Pointless.

This thread reminds me that we’re a species that is always about a hair trigger away from a loss of rationalism and civility – and Walking Dead style violence.

Ironically came home tonight and she’s watching a programme about Ian Huntley and the Soham girls, it’s on now, I have got to say he’s a candidate for the gas chamber if ever there were.
Edit, he’s even tried to commit suicide, why not let him? But no, I dare say we’ll finance his gender re assignment request and transference to a womens prison such is the way of the PC world these days..

Your grasp of irony is akin to that of Alanis Morissette.

@Tom_W1987 – Member
The US system is hardly an exemplar for many reasons. Using the death penalty only for the more extreme cases would undoubtedly reduce the risk of error whilst freeing up resources to help others etc.
How do you logically/morally square the victims of reoffenders and those not afforded life saving medical care because we’re spending £40kpa keeping multiple murderers locked up?

Why give the death penalty to the perpetrators? Let’s kill the potential trigger points/instigators e.g. alcohol sellers, gun manufacturers, politicians creating uneuqal societies that lead to murders and so forth. Yep, let’s clean up this planet with some good killing. 😀

Oh no, hang on. Isn’t murder wrong? So why would the law/moral enforcers do to others what they’re saying is wrong in the first place?

It’s too confusing my head hurts. I best go get my gun to let off steam.. 🙄

How do you logically/morally square the victims of reoffenders and those not afforded life saving medical care because we’re spending £40kpa keeping multiple murderers locked up?

The murder rate with the death penalty is higher.
How many reoffenders of murder are there? What’s your breakdown of costs, how many that are released are committing a further murder?
How far would that saving go given the length of time many of these prisoners spend on death row what is the actual saving?

There are many reasons countries are not spending enough n health care, can you logically and morally square Trident or the Olympics with people not getting treatment? What about the M6 Toll road or the BBC?

deepreddave – Member – Block User – Quote

@Tom_W1987 – Member
The US system is hardly an exemplar for many reasons. Using the death penalty only for the more extreme cases would undoubtedly reduce the risk of error whilst freeing up resources to help others etc.

How, exactly?

No problem with the death penalty myself, where there is no doubt at all about the person being guilty – ofc that means a lot of people wouldn’t be executed despite being guilty and would probably lead to less confessions/longer trials so not exactly an ideal solution. I don’t really see the appeal of life imprisonment either, I’d much rather be executed personally. Not sure how keeping someone in a cage for the rest of their life isn’t barbaric whereas lethal injection is?

@mikewsmith – The murder rate with the death penalty is higher.

What’s your source, adjusting for all other factors?
There are many reasons why murder rates increase so the causal link between murder rates and the abolition/introduction of capital punishment is complex to say the least. I recall reading that c80% of the states with the highest murder rates had the death penalty but so did 40% of the lowest. Maybe the death penalty was introduced in response to higher crime rates?

I don’t know if we should or shouldn’t have it but I do think it’s a wider discussion than all killing is bad, the system won’t be perfect or some stats about the US suggests it doesn’t work.

Mike/Tom et al who are anti capital punishment – do you hold your view with experience of serious offenders being released into your community? I don’t but recognise that it’s not ok to suggest they be released somewhere but NIMBY.

It seems to me that universal access to guns has more to do with murder rates than any of the social engineering around crime management.

@codybrennan – Member
The greater the proof, the lesser the risk, the greater the savings?
Do you have any evidence to suggest life imprisonment is the most cost effective option?

“Explain to me one more time

How when they kill it’s a crime

But when you kill then it’s ‘Justice'”.

From the first page
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates
Methodology in link

Mike/Tom et al who are anti capital punishment – do you hold your view with experience of serious offenders being released into your community? I don’t but recognise that it’s not ok to suggest they be released somewhere but NIMBY.

Rehabilitation is one of the parts of a sentence, there are and should be strict guidelines for release and there are also life without parole type sentences. I don’t have the murder reoffending rates here, do you?
I don’t personally know serious offenders who have been released but for some people the person they were before 30 years behind bars is not the one that emerges.

Explain to me one more time
How when they kill it’s a crime
But when you kill then it’s ‘Justice

You explain how when they kidnap it’s a crime, but when the state kidnaps and imprisons it’s not a crime.

You lot should all be forced to watch the Green Mile on repeat until you agree to stop fantasising about killing people with ropes and firing squads and electric chairs.

Usual stw hand wringers wring hands.
Pump em full of out of date death drugs, hopefully it will be more painful.