Pity the poor convicted murderers…

And if you were wrongly convicted loddrik? Or, which is more likely…

reduced sentance..

Not sure that’s what he got.

And if you were wrongly convicted loddrik?

Yeah, that’s the repeated argument against Loddrick’s view
Yeah, that’s the repeated argument against Loddrick’s view
Yeah, that’s the repeated argument against Loddrick’s view
Yeah, that’s the repeated argument against Loddrick’s view
Yeah, that’s the repeated argument against Loddrick’s view

loddrik – Member

I’m off to live in Texas…

…where you are five times more likely to be a victim of murder. 💡

in an attempt to add something new to the thread:

imagine you’re on a jury, the evidence seems clear, you find the defendant guilty of murder, the sentence is death.

some time after the convicted person is killed, days/weeks/years, whatever, it turns out the evidence was flawed (this does happen). how would you feel knowing that you’d effectively sent (an innocent) someone to their death?

the death penalty has consequences for all involved.

as for method: nitrogen chamber seems the obvious choice…

Yeah, that’s the repeated argument against Loddrick’s view
Yeah, that’s the repeated argument against Loddrick’s view
Yeah, that’s the repeated argument against Loddrick’s view
Yeah, that’s the repeated argument against Loddrick’s view
Yeah, that’s the repeated argument against Loddrick’s view

So I guess the repeated crossed posts pointing out the obvious flaws in someone’s logic is winding someone with a similar viewpoint up.

I guess we’d better all just stop pointing them out. Poor vengeance monkeys are getting upset.

So, wrongly convicted then. That’s a new thought for the thread.

Poor vengeance monkeys are getting upset.

No-one’s getting upset. I was just being as childish as calling someone a troll because their view is different to yours.

Or indeed a “vengeance monkey”.

Well at least threads like these weed out the other few that don’t make it on the politics ones. Just a few more names on the list there.
I assume we are all cool with beating children too?

Not sure that’s what he got.

No, I didn’t say it worked.

State execution is legal over there so what are you lot going on about? Just don’t do heinous crime when you are over there.

ahwiles – Member
some time after the convicted person is killed, days/weeks/years, whatever, it turns out the evidence was flawed (this does happen). how would you feel knowing that you’d effectively sent (an innocent) someone to their death?

The question you want to ask is would you send someone to execution if the evidence is unclear on the day?

Later day evidence has nothing to do with the evidence presented on the day.

Ask yourself this question if someone die in a car accident because of you (unintentionally) how would you feel?

Drug dealers, for example?

God Damn you Howard, I wanted to get in there first…..

What about people who enable/encourage people to do things that lead to their death?

Supporting execution, for example?

I’m suprised I got there first to be fair flange.

disclaimer – I am 100% against* the death penalty

Right then, the ‘you just want vengeance’ argument has a flaw…

If you wanted proper actual vengeance, you wouldn’t want to execute them, you want to torture them, make the suffer, and make them pay, you’d want it to be slow and agonising, simply killing them doesn’t do much of that, and after it’s happened they’re not going to care anyway so there’d not even be the satisfaction of remorse.

The only even slightly valid justification I can think of for the death penalty is one of protection, protection of the public, and that can be achieved with incarceration and/or rehabilitation, so that argument doesn’t hold much weight with me either.

* there are just too many complex reasons why, wrongful conviction, mental illness, situational pressures etc. are just some of them that mean it’s simply not a sound act, even if you did believe that killing is an OK response to killing.

Even if Tommy McEvil walked committed a horrible murder, was witnessed by 100 people, walked into the police station admitted everything and said “I just like to kill people” I would still be against the death penalty, as Tommy McEvil would clearly have a brain that for some reason (nature or nurture) is simply not like the rest of us…

No-one’s getting upset. I was just being as childish as calling someone a troll because their view is different to yours.

He hasn’t actually given a response to the ‘what about those wrongly convicted’ point though.

There ia good public health evidence that the death penalty actually increases murder rates – its use has a negative public health impact.

So how do supporters of the death penalty answer that?

The only even slightly valid justification I can think of for the death penalty is one of protection, protection of the public, and that can be achieved with incarceration, so that argument doesn’t hold much weight with me either.

Cost of keeping someone locked up for a lifetime is another

(I too am vehemently anti, just making the point there are other justifications)

I’m suprised I got there first to be fair flange.

I know – I mean, if I had a hypothetical daughter who hypothetically became addicted to a class A drug supplied to her by a hypothetical dealer who profited from such an act, the hatred and resentment towards said dealer hypothetically couldn’t be measured. I’d go so far as to say I’d want him given lethal injection….or a bullet…or the gas chamber.

However, some people are capable of rehabilitation (either with assistance or without) and can rejoin society as a fully functioning individual so maybe the death penalty isn’t the best form of punishment. Obviously were said hypothetical reformed drug dealer to then take a holier than though approach to other crimes and punishment, hypothetically I’d find this highly ironic….

You dig?

Cost of keeping someone locked up for a lifetime is another

Indeed, I nearly put a point in my post about that but didn’t.

I think that that cost is one a society should be willing to pay to remain a just and enlightened society. If the decision to kill or not ever comes down to one of money, you’ve lost your way as a society IMO.

The death penalty costs the US more than incarceration per prisoner though, in the US – does it not?

I didn’t say it was a good justification, just one that’s sometimes trotted out.

….by ignorant Daily Mail reading mouth breathers.

Plus, if it were someone close to you who was murdered, would you be so concerned about the human rights of the perpetrator…?

I dunno, there’s a good chance I’d be out for blood, which is why, now, dispassionately, I’m saying killing people is wrong so don’t give me the choice if I’m ever in that position and in no fit state to make an objective decision about it.

I didn’t say it was a good justification, just one that’s sometimes trotted out.

I wasn’t suggesting you did, nor was I arguing with you either 😉
You just prompted me to add the bit I missed out of my post.

Interesting point though Tom, I don’t know the relative costs, and as above I don’t think it relevant, but it would be another nail in that argument if what you say is true!

The death penalty costs the US more than incarceration per prisoner though, in the US – does it not?

Don’t know, but would guess that if you count the very long terms they serve in addition, and the cost of the seemingly never ending legal appeals it could well.

In comparison to the British system where I think there had to be 3 sundays between sentence and execution but essentially it was pretty swift.

I’m all for the death penalty. People who commit and are subsequently convicted of murder should be snuffed out right away. No way should any taxpayers money be spent on keeping them locked up.

They gave their ‘human rights’ up when they took away their victims’.

What about people who don’t commit, yet are subsequently convicted of, murder? Should taxpayers’ money be spent on imprisoning them until such time as you find out you made a bollocks of the conviction in the light of e.g. new evidence? Or just top them anyway – they probably did something else they weren’t caught for?

…and the British system killed a fair few innocent people because of its swiftness…and lets not get into the death penalty increasing murder rates…

Just a few more names on the list there.
I assume we are all cool with beating children too?

The thought police are out and about, i see.

Williams admitted responsibility to the state parole board last month.

at a parole hearing you have to accept that what you did was wrong and that you’ve learned your lesson. You can only do that if you’re not denial about what you did so if you still claim innocence, no parole. What would you do?

just remembered

What about people who don’t commit, yet are subsequently convicted of, murder?

That is a very tiny and diminishing group of people, tho; modern forensics have completely changed the process and accountability of murder/homicide investigation.

Can I ask the OP how they feel about golf courses? Or bus passes? Or gorillas?

That is a very tiny and diminishing group of people, tho; modern forensics have completely changed the process and accountability of murder/homicide investigation.
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How tiny a group does it have to be before it’s OK?

Forensics get it wrong more often than you think, its not a magic bullet like so many people seem to think.

Still, no one has addressed the public health consequenes which is imo THE nail in the coffin

modern forensics have completely changed the process and accountability of murder/homicide investigation.

Modern forensics can still be misrepresented by shysters.

Can I ask the OP how they feel about golf courses? Or bus passes? Or gorillas?

Let me have a go at that

Golf course are a safety hazard
Old people should get exercise and walk
Gorillas are awesome

And death penalty for anyone doing 35 in a 30. Only way they will learn.

Yeah but CSI!

What about people who illegally enable/encourage people to do illegal things that lead to their death?

Drug dealer, for example?

Edited for clarity.

I support flanges hypothesis.

They gave their ‘human rights’ up when they took away their victims’.

why is this the case?

Secondly, forget the case of wrong conviction, but imagine if someone close to you, your child or other relative was convicted of murder and rightly, would you be so convinced that they are beyond redemption or that what they need is support rather than execution? Would you really believe that the best thing would be for them to die?

Obviously were said hypothetical reformed drug dealer to then take a holier than though approach to other crimes and punishment, hypothetically I’d find this highly ironic….

I see what you did there…