Pentecost………..well i never.

I’ve had atheist views rammed down my throat* WAY WAY more than religious ones, seriously. They just can’t shut up. It’s as if they are insecure about something Or maybe they miss the point…

…perhaps some of the insecurities stem from the 1000’s of years of religous wars and persecution of the innocent?

If so let me try with why did the people who began down the evolutionary track of losing their eyebrows lose out in the race for dominance?

There’s not enough evidence to reach that occlusion is there? Or was that the point?

ton, we both know you like to do the “I’d like to see you…” dance often enough. Direct threats? No. Veiled ones? Plenty.

The arguments here are almost at cross purposes.

Molgrips is exploring the relative existence of ‘a god’ while everyone else is responding to the notion of ‘religion’ and by extension ‘God’ and the two are really very different.

I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God,for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.’
But,' says Man,The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. QED.’
Oh dear,' says God,I hadn’t thought of that,’ and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.

You speak of the sciences? Explain where it is scientifically demonstrable to raise the dead or rapture a person into the sky or be born of a virgin? These are claims that I’m less inclined to believe over natural biology as to how are species evolved – which can be explained.

Obviously the born of a virgin bit is easy nowadays.

First you explain how these ideas in anyway relate to the existence or not of a God?

how are species evolved – which can be explained.

By you?

Within the bounds of my own intellect (granted this is small :D) I chose to follow a world view based upon what I find persuasive.
The bottom line is I don’t know and you don’t know either, I accept that, but I feel the ground is firmer where I stand –

That’s fine, so yours too is a belief system, even your belief that the ground where you stand is firmer is part of that belief system.

and I’m not saddled by the unfounded constraints, dogmas and strange hang-ups that religions impose.

Instead you are compelled by a different set, some of which lead you to argue the toss about them on an internet forum. Yet, I don’t ridicule you or try to undermine your beliefs.

Peace indeed.

I’ve had atheist views rammed down my throat* WAY WAY more than religious ones, seriously.

You went to a non-religious primary school then? Cos there’s not many of them about IIRC.

geetee, you make a good point and i think you are right, but I also think it goes further than that. Those attempting the scientific approach use their own operationalisation of God to show that there is no evidence of him / her /whatever and to demonstrate that scientifically god cannot exist. So, we have arguments against the bible or religion or article of faith. Yet for most people who believe in a god, those aspect are far removed from their conceptualisation of what god is that if the attempts at the scientific approach are shown to be true, within the scientific paradigm, it would be of little consequence to those who believe. There is an argument that science is the basis for knowledge, yet we all believe that happiness exists, there is general consensus on what it is, which is far removed from measures of endorphins and such like. Yet it cannot be operationalised and proven. I’m not saying that the existence of happiness proves the existence of God. Only that not all things can be captured by the scientific method

There is no evidence for any god at all. Science has some evidence behind it. The existence or not of god is not a question where both sides are as likely.

a question or two for the religious.

1) Why is your god(s) the true god(s) and other gods are false gods
2) What evidence for your god(s) existence exists?

The outcome, as always, is tension, upset and prejudice – another religious triumph

These are old and tired questions in the debate
Usual answers?

1) Why is your god(s) the true god(s) and other gods are false gods

This isn’t the case

2) What evidence for your god(s) existence exists

Love and happiness

Can i try a question or the non-religious now?

1) Do you believe in ESP (remote mind reading and so on)?

Love and happiness

Have you ever read the old testament?

1) Do you believe in ESP (remote mind reading and so on)?

I believe in intuition and probability, whether that the same thing?

setting down to watch SoP with a nice cup of tea and a French fancy.

that sounds quite nice n relaxing. I’m in! I have some battenburg cake.

no, not the same thing.

I talking about the ‘guess which card/picture i’m looking at’ from a separate room kind of ESP

Have you ever read the old testament?

Again with your operationalisation

‘guess which card/picture i’m looking at’

I would say this is probabilistic, a bit like roulette.
I do not believe their is any evidence to say anyone could 100% reliably predict the outcome in the scenario you descibe.

“1) Why is your god(s) the true god(s) and other gods are false gods”

This isn’t the case

Charlie – you are a pantheist then? Or a Christian? If I understand properly Christianity is a monotheistic religion.something about false prophets, grave images , idolatrous worships and only one true god.

” 2) What evidence for your god(s) existence exists”

Love and happiness

Not only do I not believe, i positively reject your gods and I enjoy wonderful love and happiness, whereas worship of gods causes horrendous pain and suffering.

EVIDENCE PLEASE for the existance of a god

ESP – no – tested and proven not to exist.

I do not believe without evidence. I am a rational person

Not only do I not believe, i positively reject your gods and I enjoy wonderful love and happiness

But they give it to you anyway, that’s just how nice they are. That’s more evidence for you.

ESP – no – tested and proven not to exist.
I do not believe without evidence. I am a rational person

That’s one half of it, do you then believe when there is evidence

That’s one half of it, do you then believe when there is evidence

Somehow I knew you were going to say that – honest!

Well, it was so obvious a question I was surprised it wasn’t pre-empted and answered initially

God was speaking to me at the time – sorry got distracted

I do not believe their is any evidence to say anyone could 100% reliably predict the outcome in the scenario you descibe

Surely if you believe in probability it wouldn’t need to be 100% reliable. It would only need to happen reliably more often than chance alone would allow?

If there was good evidence of ESP I would believe in its existence. As there is no evidence of its existence then I don’t .

So Charlie – are you a pantheist or a Christian? If you are a Christian then you must reject other gods as false according to scripture.

I like Ganesh. I think he is my favourite god. unless yo count Budda as a god

If there was good evidence of ESP I would believe in its existence. As there is no evidence of its existence then I don’t

http://www.stat.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html

So Charlie – are you a pantheist or a Christian? If you are a Christian then you must reject other gods as false according to scripture.

If I believed scripture

Surely if you believe in probability it wouldn’t need to be 100% reliable. It would only need to happen reliably more often than chance alone would allow?

The math could determine the likihood of predicting the correct call of say a playing card in a pack of 52. I would say that’s a 1 in 52 chance of calling the correct playing card on the first attempt. So if by chance a correct ‘guess’ was made on the first attempt, this would nether proove or dis-proove ESP.

So what religion are you then Charlie?

The math could determine the likihood of predicting the correct call of say a playing card in a pack of 52. I would say that’s a 1 in 52 chance of calling the correct playing card on the first attempt. So if by chance a correct ‘guess’ was made on the first attempt, this would nether proove or dis-proove ESP

Yes and the maths would also show that the correct guess was within the bounds of statistical chance

but if it was done in a statistically reliable and consistent manner as the link showed?

So what religion are you then Charlie?

Me? I’m a theist

perhaps some of the insecurities stem from the 1000’s of years of religous wars and persecution of the innocent?

Don’t be ridiculous!

As geetee says, there are several different points here. Existence of God, the merits of organised religion, and biblical inerrancy with regards creation.

The three are really completely separate arguments. However tarring all religious people, Christians or church goers with the same brush is fairly ignorant. I’ve spoken to many Christians who don’t believe the biblical account of creations. I started once (as a very young man) arguing against one such person (also a Physics student) by saying how ridiculous the creation stories were; she replied that they were just parables. Fairly obvious really.

If there was good evidence of ESP I would believe in its existence. As there is no evidence of its existence then I don’t

Would not be better to withhold judgement rather than believe it doesn’t exist?

Anyway.. what if there was a god but he provided no evidence? Then what? Or his evidence was in a form that we could not understand?

Out of interest, have any of you lot read a book called Flatland by Edwin A Abbott?

It would only need to happen reliably more often than chance alone would allow?

If the number of attepts at ‘guessing’ is sufficiently high I would anticipate a 1 in 52 chance could be prooven. If the result is higher than chance would allow then I would say the randomisation of the pack was floored.

If the result is higher than chance would allow then I would say the randomisation of the pack was floored

Why would you say that? Surely not trying to explain away the results to get the answer you wanted before you started?

TJ you can’t positively reject something you don’t believe in. By positively rejecting it you sound like you’ve got got a grudge against God. Would you say you were bigoted towards religion?

I personally don’t believe that there is a god as Christianity would have us believe so I don’t need to reject it and nor do I feel animosity towards Christians practising their own belief. Its just something that works for them.

Right, so even if the evidence was provided you would still look for a way to hold on to your pre-conception?

What if the pack wasn’t flawed?

Don’t be ridiculous!

I recall, when I was about six years old, almost being pursuaded by religion, fearful of burning in unimaginable pain for eternity in hell fire. That does ‘grate’ slightly with me.

Geetee scores again!

Absolutely. Good shot old chap.