Palestine 🇵🇸 = Ukraine 🇺🇦 ?

Will you continue to avoid this question for another page?

So thols, since you chose not to answer the question regarding apartheid (and misrepresented the nature of this thread), is it safe to say that you yourself support apartheid?

So, we agree. Sending weapons to Palestinians would be spectacularly stupid. That’s why the West doesn’t do it.

So – now tell us what alternative support is given to the victims of Israeli aggression and why sending weapons to Israel is a great idea ….

No, apartheid is utterly horrendous.

One of the core problems in Israel and Palestine is that Israel was established as a homeland for Jews a few years after the holocaust. This makes a one-state solution impossible because right-wing Israelis will never accept Jews as a minority. Apart from the experience of the holocaust, the decades of attacks on Israeli civilians has persuaded right-wing Israelis that they will never be safe unless Israel is a Jewish state. That’s a brute reality of Israeli politics.

That leaves a two-state solution as the only practical solution. Apartheid literally means the two sides are apart, but in has additional meaning that one side is dominant. That means that a realistic solution requires a viable Palestinian state. That’s never going to be possible without a peace treaty that returns annexed lands to the Palestinians, recognizes Israel as a legitimate state, and recognizes that attacking Israeli citizens is not acceptable. Not attacking Israeli civilians should be an easy part of that deal.

That’s a very one sided argument, given not only the constant harrassment by the Israeli military, but also, by Israeli Civilians themselves…

Charges Are Pressed Only in 4% of Settler Violence Cases

When cases pertain to violence against Palestinians, investigators often ignore evidence, fail to question witnesses, or simply close case

Feb 7, 2022

Everything was documented. Videos showed a group of settlers coming into a parking area in Hawara, near the settlement of Yitzhar, and throwing stones at 13 vehicles. The footage from the security cameras was very clear. It was no secret. Later that night, soldiers arrived to document the damage. A patrol officer joined them. The police in Ariel were provided with photographs, the names of witnessess, and told that there had been soldiers on the scene at the time of the crime- and that they had footage showing exactly what happened.

The incident took place on March 15, 2020, but nearly two years later, no one has been arrested or indicted. On the contrary, the file has been closed. A file containing just a letter of complaint, photographs of the incident, and a report from the patrol officer.

This incident is one of many. At Haaretz’s request, police provided figures showing that in only 3.8 percent of criminal cases pertaining to violence against Palestinians were charges actually filed. In absolute numbers, 221 of 263 cases that were opened were closed without any action taken. Only ten of those cases resulted in an indictment. The rest are still under investigation.

So – now tell us what alternative support is given to the victims of Israeli aggression and why sending weapons to Israel is a great idea …

What Palestinians need is support in building a viable state. They need schools, hospitals, legal systems, water systems, etc. Sending money is easy, seeing that it’s spent on useful things and not stolen or diverted to weapons is the difficult part.

Israel is a relatively liberal democracy in a region dominated by utterly terrible governments. Probably the most dangerous country in the region is Iran. Syria is a hellhole. Saudi Arabia is another potential Iran. All the countries in the region are vying for power, have terrible civil rights records, and potential nuclear weapons states. The gamble is that having the West supply countries with weapons is stabilizing. If the West didn’t, they would turn to Russia or China and probably enter a nuclear arms race. There are no good options in the region, just bad ones and less bad ones.

That’s a very one sided argument, given not only the constant harrassment by the Israeli military, but also, by Israeli Civilians themselves…

Yep. Sending weapons to Palestinians won’t help with that, it will just make it worse. If you want to help Palestinians, don’t send them weapons. Ukraine is different. That’s the point of the thread.

You’ve misunderstood the thread then…

You’ve misunderstood the thread then…

I don’t think the situations in Ukraine and Palestine are the same. That’s literally the thread title.

What do you think the thread is about?

You’ve misunderstood the thread then…

Indeed, although you stated it clearly enough:

At the end of the day, we have 2 similar stories of territorial infringement and slaughter by oppressors… so why the disparity?

As far as I can see it’s all the Palestinians’ fault.

As far as I can see it’s all the Palestinians’ fault.

I blame the British and the Americans. How did they ever come to think that gifting someone elses country to a religious group was ever going to end anything other than badly 😯

As far as I can see it’s all the Palestinians’ fault.

Nope, right wing Israelis did everything they could to derail peace negotiations, so did militant Palestinians. The fault is with extremists who refuse to accept any compromise with the other side. Sending weapons to Palestinians who attack Israeli civilians is not going to make things better for Palestinians, it will make it worse.

Sending weapons to Palestinians who attack Israeli civilians is not going to make things better for Palestinians, it will make it worse.

So you keep saying, but you haven’t given us any idea what will actually make Palestinians’ lives better, given that the Israelis are intent on expanding their occupation. At the moment the only choice they have is to die on their knees or die on their feet.

I blame the British and the Americans.

The British actually. The Americans joined in much later.

Problem is that pointing fingers at stuff that happened 100 years ago doesn’t fix the problem now. Israel exists now and has nuclear weapons. The Palestinians need a viable state of their own that isn’t at war with Israel. That’s only going to happen by persuading moderate Israeli’s to trust Palestinians and to return annexed land. Sending weapons to Palestinians who kill Israeli civilians would destroy any possibility of that. That’s why it’s a terrible idea, it just makes things worse for Palestinians.

you haven’t given us any idea what will actually make Palestinians’ lives better,

I did. Guess you didn’t read it.

militant Palestinians.

Thats a bit like those old cowboy films.

‘The Indians are attacking’

Completely missing the point that they are trying to defend their land against an invading group.

Sending weapons to Palestinians who kill Israeli civilians would destroy any possibility of that.

Better watch out – a straw man that big is a major fire risk just now.

I did.

Yeah but I meant – in real life, not unicorns like “persuading Israelis to all be beautiful and love their fellow man”

Someone give the poor lad a shake, dunno if it’s the heat or what, but he’s clearly malfunctioned and is loopier than looped tape of a hula hooping wing rider doing a loop the loop over a field of lupins on loop.

Now that we’ve established that flooding a situation with arms, be that Afghanistan in the 1980s, Syria in the 2010s, or indeed Israel in the 1940s->??? is bad, let’s talk about sanctions…

Completely missing the point that they are trying to defend their land against an invading group.

This is the key thing with war crimes. It’s what you do, not what side you are on. I think Ukrainians are on the side of good, but if they torture and kill prisoners, that’s a war crime.

If Palestinians lob rockets at Israeli cities, it’s criminal. Doesn’t matter whether you support the Palestinian cause or not, indiscriminate attacks on civilians are terrorism/war crimes. Sending weapons to Palestinian groups who attack Israeli civilians is an absolute non-starter for Western countries, so any weapon shipments would have to be to groups who renounce attacks on civilians.

So, which Palestinian groups should be sent weapons? Which weapons should they be sent?

Clearly the best weapons the Palestinians could be sent is water pistols, to repel the onslaught of Israeli Bulldozers… better still, they could help distract their children from the plight of not only being regularly woken up by airstrikes and soldiers knocking doors, but terrorist acts by colonialist settlers.

Sanctions against Israel would of course never work, because they’re a nuclear power and would gladly bomb their would be customers to re-establish good business relations.

Sanctions against Israel would of course never work, because they’re a nuclear power and would gladly bomb their would be customers to re-establish good business relations.

No, because their customers want to buy whatever Israel exports. For example, Israel and Turkey have a huge amount of military technology cooperation. It’s no problem to persuade Western liberals to boycott SodaStream, but you aren’t going to persuade Turkey or other countries to cancel defense contracts or boycott Israeli tech firms. Keep in mind, Turkey is a Muslim country. If you can’t get Muslim countries on board, you have no chance with Taiwan, South Korea, etc. when they want something that Israel has.

Say for example the media did stir up sufficient sentiment that it became politically expedient for Western Governments to sanction Israel due to it’s apartheid policies…

Couldn’t they just outsource via a 3rd party intermediary like Russia does with oil exports through that other darling of the UK and US, Saudi Arabia?

Then at least there would be some semblence of parity, rather than clear support for apartheid…

This is the key thing with war crimes. It’s what you do

I agree, the Palestinian freedom fighters launch rockets from built up urban areas, then disappear.

The Israelis then fire rockets into the area the rockets came from, but knowing that the Palestinian fighters have left.

So the only thing the Israelis are hitting are peoples homes.

So war crimes are being committed by both sides, only its the Palestinians who are the only ones blamed and criticized.

This doesnt look like a military target, and mirrors that the Russians are doing to Ukraine.

Also, if you want to sanction Israel over human rights issues, you will face questions over why other countries with even worse human rights issues aren’t sanctioned. China has an even worse human rights record. So does Saudi Arabia. So do dozens of other countries. Nobody wants to go down that road.

I agree, the Palestinian freedom fighters launch rockets from built up urban areas, then disappear.

That’s a war crime. That’s why Western countries will not supply weapons. Glad we agree.

Two states = an apartheid state + a Bantustan

fwiw, I think thols2 is sensibly and calmly demonstrating a balanced and objective view and has explained quite clearly what he thinks needs to happen pragmatically to support the Palestinians and (ideally, subject to extremists on both sides standing down) try to bring the conflict to an end.

The fact that it doesn’t exactly sit with some people’s black and white simplistic world view doesn’t justify ignoring or misrepresenting what he has written. The fact that Israel keeps committing offences and getting away with it is horrendous, but arming those who seek to wipe them out is not the solution.

And nor was that the point of the thread, despite any pigheadedness to the contrary…

At the end of the day, we have 2 similar stories of territorial infringement and slaughter by oppressors… so why the disparity?

@MoreCashThanDash

I appreciate that you’ve actually read what I wrote.

The fact that Israel keeps committing offences and getting away with it is horrendous, but arming those who seek to wipe them out is not the solution.

I completely agree with this part of what you said.

The fact that Israel keeps committing offences and getting away with it is horrendous,

This part is important too.

arming those who seek to wipe them out is not the solution.

Yawn…

Yet arming the invading party is wholly supported, with nary a whisper from the media

I will pop in for the economics.

The question is how long can the United States maintain that level of crucial support? The simple answer is not for ever.

The USA can always afford it.

In fact congress is always rather generous with military spending. The limit as always are the resources.

US is currently spending not far off a trillion dollars (800 billion give or take) on the military – per year.

Nowhere else comes close.

And they always pass the bills, no ifs or buts.

That’s a war crime.

But is there even such a thing ?. Or is it just a ploy for one group to demonize the other.

WW2, French resistance killed not only German military, but also French civilians who collaborated with them. Or the cities we carpet bombed, the targets only being the civilian population ?.

“All’s fair in love and war”.

Yawn…

Well that’s a pretty convincing and insightful argument.

Yet arming the invading party is wholly supported, with nary a whisper from the media

I certainly don’t blindly support it, and I don’t think thols2 does either from what he’s written. Arms supply should ideally be a reward for engaging in the peace process and moving this shit forward.

But the fact remains that if we just walk away from Israel there will be another Holocaust, and not just on the Jewish side this time.

In the world of international conflict, pragmatism is usually the only solution that succeeds. Everyone has to swallow their pride and accept the unacceptable.

Or the cities we carpet bombed, the targets only being the civilian population ?.

See also London, Coventry etc

“All’s fair in love and war”.

When you are fighting for your/your familys/your countrys survival, it often has to be, tragically.

fwiw, I think thols2 is sensibly and calmly demonstrating a balanced and objective view

Well that’s your opinion, and well worth every penny I paid you for it. But it’s maybe instructuve that nobody has suggested:

arming those who seek to wipe them out is not the solution.

However, we seem to be more than happy to supply weapons and money and diplomatic cover to the Israelis. So if someone is seeing things in black and white, I’d suggest it’s not me.

In the world of international conflict, pragmatism is usually the only solution that succeeds. Everyone has to swallow their pride and accept the unacceptable.

How much pride have the Israelis swallowed lately? Coming bck to the topic of the thread, how much pride have the Ukrainians swallowed? They and their backers are demanding that Russia withdraws from Donbas and Crimea. Not much swallowing of pride there. So Palestinians uniquely are the ones accepting being mapped oiutof existence.

This part is important too.

arming those who seek to wipe them out is not the solution.

Lucky that NOBODY here has suggested it, then, despite you repeatedly bringing it up.

Also, if you want to sanction Israel over human rights issues, you will face questions over why other countries with even worse human rights issues aren’t sanctioned.

Well I am asking why is Russia sanctioned over invading a neighbour while Israel is not, so this can go round and round.

Nice Dr J .👍

The USA can always afford it.

Certainly whilst the US is the dominant global power, and propping up a client state in a region vital for energy supplies which will bomb and attack in a way that serves US interests, without any concern for neither national nor international legal obligations.

It is easier both logistically, and more importantly politically, for Israel to carry out a bombing raid on say Iran, for example, than the United States to do so.

But if you accept that the United States has reached its peak and is now experiencing a period of decline, much as Great Britain did a hundred years ago (remember it was Great Britain’s financial strength which allowed her to fight successful wars in the 19th century) then who is to say what the US will be able to afford in 50 or a 100 years? Or whether the Middle East will still be considered a region of vital US interests.

Or whether the US will still be a single nominally united country in 50 or 100 years time? Do you honestly believe that wealthy states like California will always want to remain in the Union whatever the cost or political makeup? Or hard-right republican states will equally always want to remain in the Union?

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/10/06/americans-national-divorse-theyre-wrong-515443

A recent survey by the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia found that about 50 percent of Donald Trump voters and 40 percent of Joe Biden voters agreed to some extent with the proposition that the country should split up, with either red or blue states seceding.

The clock is ticking as far as Israel is concerned imo, the United States cannot be guaranteed to be propping it up in 50 or a 100 years time, but it is reasonable to assume that Palestinians will still be around in 50 or a 100 years time.

Israel is a relatively liberal democracy

Israel is not a liberal democracy. Any country in which the freedoms of individuals are based on their ethnicity cannot be described as a liberal democracy.

A distinction can be made between ‘human rights issues’ and legalized apartheid.
In Sharpeville a ‘modest’ 69 kids were killed. The Palestinians have suffered much worse, hence Tutu’s comments.

That’s a war crime.

But is there even such a thing ?. Or is it just a ploy for one group to demonize the other.

Yes, there is such a thing.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml